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Drofder
I was just looking for a bit of general advice relating to either the legal or policy relating to representation evidence (Congestion Charge - TfL)

To give a brief outline of the situation, I work for a hire company and are currently have a dispute with Transport For London.

- A hirer entered the Congestion Charge zone on multiple days across a period of time without paying the fee and resulted in multiple PCNs.
- I represented the first PCN that arrived (providing hirer details and rental agreement as required).
- They accepted the representation and reissued the PCN to the hirer

- I also contacted the company to alert them they had not paid the zone (as they were still travelling in the zone).
- Our hirer decided they wanted to simply pay all the fines and get them out of the way.
- I did not reply to the PCNs and allowed the hirer to pay them directly.
- Not long after paying the fines, TfL decided to refund all the payments and reissue all of the PCNs to the hirer.

- After speaking with TfL to enquire as to why they had done this, they said that I had provided representation for those PCNs (although I had only replied to one of several PCNs received)

The question I have is, are TfL allowed to use evidence provided in one representation and apply that to every following
penalty charge notice without my permission or without me signing each PCN individually?


A scenario I presented to TfL was that if a hirer decides to end their hire short of the agreed period of time on a rental agreement, the evidence would be out of date and they may end up sending PCNs to the wrong person. Their response was that I would be required to make sure the evidence I provide is "correct".
Surely this is the point of having a PCN that I sign stating that the information is "correct to my knowledge".

Does anyone have any knowledge of the procedures or anything that would answer the above question?

Thank you.
stamfordman
The owner/registered keeper is liable until you reassign a PCN. They can only send PCNs to you initially.

But anyone can pay a PCN - i take it you gave the hirer the PCNs or details, so I don't understand why TFL reopened them. What does it say on the online status?

Are you sure the hirer hasn't done something?
hcandersen
The question I have is, are TfL allowed to use evidence provided in one representation and apply that to every following
penalty charge notice without my permission or without me signing each PCN individually?

In the absence of any of the details of the case e.g. had the other PCNs been served before you made reps and did these contain anything which could legitimately give TfL reason to take them as specimen reps for a specified number of PCNs, the answer is no, pure and simple.

It is not for them to usurp your right as owner to make reps or not as you see fit.

But this point should be for the Flame Pit, n'est-ce pas?

You have no liability for any penalties although I suppose you could send the money back to them smile.gif
stamfordman
Think you misread this one HCA - OP works for hire company and I read it that TFL refunded the hirer.
hcandersen
Re-reading, it doesn't make sense: too many hirers, hire company and companies floating about.

The OP is a 'hire company'
The hirer is a company, not an individual.
I did not reply to the PCNs and allowed the hirer to pay them directly.
- Not long after paying the fines, TfL decided to refund all the payments and reissue all of the PCNs to the hirer.
..is where it goes astray!

OP, clarity pl.

You cannot have the hirer paying the penalties and then PCNs issued to the same entity because there's no liability(because the penalties have been paid) and therefore no PCNs.
Drofder
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 15:04) *
Re-reading, it doesn't make sense: too many hirers, hire company and companies floating about.

The OP is a 'hire company'
The hirer is a company, not an individual.
I did not reply to the PCNs and allowed the hirer to pay them directly.
- Not long after paying the fines, TfL decided to refund all the payments and reissue all of the PCNs to the hirer.
..is where it goes astray!

OP, clarity pl.

You cannot have the hirer paying the penalties and then PCNs issued to the same entity because there's no liability(because the penalties have been paid) and therefore no PCNs.


Sorry, was trying to keep it brief. A bit more clarity.

The hirer is working on behalf of a company. We notified the hirers company that they had not paid the congestion charge.
We did represent one of the penalty charges, but we had around 10 remaining unpaid PCN's that we had not responded to sitting in our office awaiting processing.

Because we had not replied to those PCNs and the company was willing to pay them, we provided the company with the PCN details so they could pay them directly with their own company card. Which they did (the PCN status of the fine was set to "paid" when checked online).

The hirer nor their company attempted to appeal them and I did not attempt to represent them. I still hold the original documents with me.

As a note: TfL seem to have a policy that you are still able to represent a paid fine, and if the representation is valid they will refund the monies paid and re-issue the fine to the represented person. I do not believe any other authority/council/etc do this.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 14:00) *
The owner/registered keeper is liable until you reassign a PCN. They can only send PCNs to you initially.

But anyone can pay a PCN - i take it you gave the hirer the PCNs or details, so I don't understand why TFL reopened them. What does it say on the online status?

Are you sure the hirer hasn't done something?


Here is an example of the online status:
15/09/2018 14:00:31 PCN Batched
18/09/2018 16:51:43 Paid
19/09/2018 11:36:14 Representation submitted Under review
19/09/2018 11:36:15 Representation Accepted
19/09/2018 11:36:18 On Hold
19/09/2018 11:36:18 Refund Requested:Amt: £80.00
19/09/2018 14:00:22 PCN Batched
25/09/2018 08:11:59 Refund

The above is from a PCN I have not replied to. They day after the "paid" status, all the other statuses showed.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 14:40) *
The question I have is, are TfL allowed to use evidence provided in one representation and apply that to every following
penalty charge notice without my permission or without me signing each PCN individually?

In the absence of any of the details of the case e.g. had the other PCNs been served before you made reps and did these contain anything which could legitimately give TfL reason to take them as specimen reps for a specified number of PCNs, the answer is no, pure and simple.

It is not for them to usurp your right as owner to make reps or not as you see fit.

But this point should be for the Flame Pit, n'est-ce pas?

You have no liability for any penalties although I suppose you could send the money back to them smile.gif


I gave them no reason to assume I was representing multiple fines. I never send more than one PCN per letter and I write a full representation on every PCN providing a copy of the evidence per individual PCN. I have never appealled multiple PCNs at once.

I did question their right to use the document without my signature confirming this but they passed it off as normal practice. Although, around ten years in this position and have never seen it done before.

Hopefully that provides more clarity, but if you want anything else answered I will happily answer it.
stamfordman
QUOTE (Drofder @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 18:11) *
Here is an example of the online status:
15/09/2018 14:00:31 PCN Batched
18/09/2018 16:51:43 Paid
19/09/2018 11:36:14 Representation submitted Under review
19/09/2018 11:36:15 Representation Accepted
19/09/2018 11:36:18 On Hold
19/09/2018 11:36:18 Refund Requested:Amt: £80.00
19/09/2018 14:00:22 PCN Batched
25/09/2018 08:11:59 Refund

The above is from a PCN I have not replied to. They day after the "paid" status, all the other statuses showed.


OK - am a bit slow on the uptake here but surely you have no involvement now if the PCNs have been reissued to the hirer. All they have to do is pay them (again) - did they get them and are you in the clear with them all?

I agree that TFL must not do this as they have no idea if a PCN is the same hirer. I would write to them and ask for an official explanation. Ask them for a copy of the reps for one of these PCNs.
Drofder
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 20:20) *
OK - am a bit slow on the uptake here but surely you have no involvement now if the PCNs have been reissued to the hirer. All they have to do is pay them (again) - did they get them and are you in the clear with them all?

I agree that TFL must not do this as they have no idea if a PCN is the same hirer. I would write to them and ask for an official explanation. Ask them for a copy of the reps for one of these PCNs.


Technically, I have no involvement. However, the process has caused a massive amount of confusion and I believe some of the fines have escalated beyond their reduced price (price originally paid).

I really was only asking the question for my own understanding and to find out if what TfL have done is even legal or correct.
I will send them a letter today requesting all the information relating to the penalty charges and an explanation as to how the PCNs came to be in the hirers name.
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