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estevenin
Hi,

Today the tenant of my previous house called a friend of mine about some scary letters.

She received a "statuary declaration / order for recovery" for an oxford parking ticket. (there was no PCN or other things, just this I think they throw it away months ago)

And basically, it appeared that my friend hasn''t receive the documents at the right adress, because DVLA have the old one. She has updated it, received a new driving licence, but was unaware that she had to send the V5C as well.

In the order of recovery that she received, there is a box to tick with "I did not receive the PCN". Do you have some advice on what to write, on the "my reasons are", to justify such a case and be able to reset it to PCN ?

Furthermore, she says that she didn't have any PCN on her car, so this letter came as a surprise. There was no way to see any image on their website, just a way to pay or appeal. Do you need to write to them directly to ask them for images and proof ?

Here the full PDF with all the documents received : https://www.dropbox.com/s/0qmfmq7ome7lim9/oxford.pdf?dl=0

Thank you in advance !
Neil B
QUOTE (estevenin @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 23:44) *
In the order of recovery that she received, there is a box to tick with "I did not receive the PCN". Do you have some advice on what to write, on the "my reasons are", to justify such a case and be able to reset it to PCN ?

Furthermore, she says that she didn't have any PCN on her car, so this letter came as a surprise.

It's for bus lane contravention so she couldn't have had a PCN on the car. If,as you said, she looked online it probably told her that.

Has she now updated V5?

If it has not been updated, how has she received this? Is the address correct?

According to the doc posted she is too late but answer me and I'll explain what to do and how she might NOT be too late.

What does this mean?
QUOTE (estevenin @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 23:44) *
I think they throw it away months ago

hcandersen
OP, so far the dramatis personae in this drama appear to be the tenants, the friend and you, plus the authority, Traffic Enforcement Centre and, waiting in the wings, enforcement agents. Not forgetting Pepipoo entering in Act V.

There might be a fool in there somewhere as well, only time will tell. As will whether it is a tragedy, farce or comedy(of errors).

Anyway we need to clarify who's who.

Does the person to whom the OfR was issued live at that address now or have they ever lived there? If the latter, when did they move? Did/do they own the car in question at the relevant time?

Speculating, the addressee does not live there now, but did. At some point, which you'll tell us, they moved and took the car in question with them but did not notify DVLA as they are required to do.

If the above is correct then the tenants could be in for a rude shock. - which you now know given your other thread re: Dart Charge.

Time is not anyone's friend here, so pl respond to all requests for info fully and promptly.
estevenin
Hi All,

Thanks for the feedback. So to answer your questions :

- The V5C is not updated yet, she needs to print a proof of address and as she received it all on friday, she will only be able to find a printer opened on Monday. So she will start the procedure on monday.

What she did was updating her address on the DVLA website (Hence receiving a new driving licenc). Which she though that, would be all

- She did looked online but actually didn't find a way to get any information / pictures of the PCN, only links to pay for it or appeal. But if it's for a bus lane, then it makes sense why she didn't have anything on the car.

- In the her previous address, address ONE, they saw a RED letter (someone came to pick up furnitures after in unpaid debt), so they though "We are in trouble here, so we should make her aware of it". As she doesn't live there anymore, they probably threw away periodically all the letters coming to her name. But because they though this letter would cause THEM trouble, they didn't throw it away and they called her (they had her contact number), so she could come and pick up some letters. They gave her a couple of letters, including this oxford thing.

- The person to whom the OfR was issued does not currently live in the address that is was issued (address ONE), but she once lived there. She moved out about a year ago. She did own the car at the relevant time, and still does.

- To clarify my above point, she did notify DVLA, by asking them to change her address in their system. What she did not know (and now does), is that she had to notify them twice, once for the driving licence, and another for the V5C. Her driving licence shows the correct address, and back in time, she had filled up her V5C with the new address (but didn't send it back), thinking that the procedure was done and her address was up to date. (I can imagine based on that, that if one own 10 cars, one has to notify them 10 times by sending back the 10 V5C).

I hope this has answered all the questions.

Thank you !
cp8759
As your friend might know, ignorance is no excuse and failing to update the V5C form is a criminal offence (You might say it's a stupid law, but that it is what it is). Fortunately for her this offence is seldom pursued. However she has no good reason for not receiving the paperwork (as far as the law is concerned it's her fault she didn't update the V5C) so an out of time statutory declaration is unlikely to be accepted. The only realistic chance is if the council forget to oppose it.

If the council oppose it our experience is the application will be refused, she can ask for a judge to reconsider the issue, but this costs £100 for a decision without a hearing or £255 for a decision at a hearing, in neither case can either of these fees be refunded (unless she's on a very low income in which case she might qualify for remission of fees).

With this in mind, there's nothing t be lost in trying an out of time statutory declaration, but if that is usefulness she would be better off just paying.
hcandersen
On the practical side, what would the tenants do when the agents contact them, whether by letter or personal visit?

The more actions the agents take the more charges would be added to the final total.

Forget photos, these are only relevant when you get to make reps, you have to get access to this process yet and this must be your priority.

'I can imagine based on that, that if one own 10 cars, one has to notify them 10 times by sending back the 10 V5C).'

If you're the registered keeper of 10 cars, then yes, obviously.

And as for...
'.back in time, she had filled up her V5C with the new address (but didn't send it back), thinking that the procedure was done and her address was up to date' ...despite not having in her possession a V5C! Making the mistake is understandable, letting it run until now isn't, neither is it a defence: if the new V5C didn't arrive then, as the V5C makes clear, the RK must contact DVLA.

I'm tempted to recommend that she keeps her costs as low as practicable and pays because I'm not confident that the options would be pursued in a timely manner (going through a third party - you - doesn't help) or be successful.
Neil B
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 01:38) *
According to the doc posted she is too late but I'll explain what to do and how she might NOT be too late.

She must phone TEC first thing tomorrow 0300 123 1059.

Ask the date the debt was registered and if she is in time to submit a PE3 Statutory Declaration.


If 'yes', get it sworn then file by e-mail.

--
I don't know why everyone is assuming it's too late.
cp8759
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 11 Nov 2018 - 16:04) *
I don't know why everyone is assuming it's too late.

Cos it says 11 October 2018 and today it's 11 November?
Neil B
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 11 Nov 2018 - 16:44) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 11 Nov 2018 - 16:04) *
I don't know why everyone is assuming it's too late.

Cos it says 11 October 2018 and today it's 11 November?

Depends what that 11/10 signifies.
If it's the deadline, as CPR says it should be, then no chance.

If it's the date of OfR, as many we see are flawed in that way, then still a chance of being 'in time'.
zwekk
Is it ever too late? This gov uk page suggests that even seized property may be returned. Certainty it ought to stop the LA sending out anyone to collect property and the costs going up.

But off course it should be done immediately to stop the costs going up further. Would it also be wise to email Oxford to advise of the situation, new contact details and that any debt will be paid after the outcome of any challenge so that there is no need for further recovery action.
peterguk
QUOTE (zwekk @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 00:06) *
This gov uk page suggests that even seized property may be returned.


Assuming it hasn't been auctioned...
hcandersen
Property being removed adds to the costs.

The agents want the spondoolics, not tatty goods. Taking goods is just leverage to get the debtor to pay.

And as SDs have only a 21-day time limit, we can reasonably assume that any SD would be late.

The OP doesn't seem to appreciate the gravity of the situation where the original penalty pales into insignificance when set against enforcement costs.

zwekk
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 09:26) *
And as SDs have only a 21-day time limit, we can reasonably assume that any SD would be late.


I still believe that the OP must file a SD at a magistrates court (or otherwise) as soon as possible. The relevant act is below, and there is room for discretion. In my opinion, in the reasons, the OP must state
a) When the OP moved out of the address.
b) That all previous post was discarded by the tenants and not returned. (I presume without permission.)
c) That the OP was only aware on ___ date after the tenants became aware of bailiffs seeking to remove goods and made a phone call/text message.

The OP must make sure the council are aware so as to stop the costly enforcement action.

QUOTE
8(1)This paragraph applies where—

(a)a county court makes an order under paragraph 7 above;

(b)the person against whom it is made makes a statutory declaration complying with sub-paragraph (2) below; and

©that declaration is, before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the date on which notice of the county court’s order is served on him, served on the county court which made the order.

(2)The statutory declaration must state that the person making it—

(a)did not receive the notice to owner in question;

(b)made representations to the London authority concerned under paragraph 2 above but did not receive a rejection notice from that authority; or

©appealed to a parking adjudicator under paragraph 5 above against the rejection by that authority of representations made by him under paragraph 2 above but had no response to the appeal.

(3)Sub-paragraph (4) below applies where it appears to a district judge, on the application of a person on whom a charge certificate has been served, that it would be unreasonable in the circumstances of his case to insist on him serving his statutory declaration within the period of 21 days allowed for by sub-paragraph (1) above.

(4)Where this sub-paragraph applies, the district judge may allow such longer period for service of the statutory declaration as he considers appropriate.

(5)Where a statutory declaration is served under sub-paragraph (1)© above—

(a)the order of the court shall be deemed to have been revoked;

(b)the charge certificate shall be deemed to have been cancelled;

©in the case of a declaration under sub-paragraph (2)(a) above, the notice to owner to which the charge certificate relates shall be deemed to have been cancelled; and

(d)the district judge shall serve written notice of the effect of service of the declaration on the person making it and on the London authority concerned.

(6)Service of a declaration under sub-paragraph (2)(a) above shall not prevent the London authority serving a fresh notice to owner.

(7)Where a declaration has been served under sub-paragraph (2)(b) or © above, the London authority shall refer the case to the parking adjudicator who may give such direction as he considers appropriate.


QUOTE
The OP doesn't seem to appreciate the gravity of the situation where the original penalty pales into insignificance when set against enforcement costs.

Fortunately, the OP has asked for help and isn't sitting on it.

I believe the OP can find some relief in that it will be possible to arrange a re-payment plan small enough as to not impact on his/her life and continue to work to earn money in the present job.
hcandersen
SDs are not filed at a Magistrates' Court, they are submitted to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

The relevant para. in the long quote you posted is 8(1)©, before the end of the 21-day period. So, this does not apply.

You are then reliant on 8(4), the problems with which are:

Whereas submission of an OOT is free, and stays the enforcement process pro tem, an application to a DJ is not, current fee is of the order of £100 for consideration on the papers, and
The DJ is not an agony aunt or therapist, they apply the law. At present the OP has not suggested any grounds on which TEC would accept an Out of Time submission or a DJ overrule that decision.

If the charges are owing and due, the debtor cannot impose a payment plan on the creditor, but they may ask.
zwekk
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 10:58) *
SDs are not filed at a Magistrates' Court, they are submitted to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

Sorry I was unclear. They have to be sworn at a Magistrates Court (or otherwise) before submitted by post to the TEC, right?

QUOTE
The relevant para. in the long quote you posted is 8(1)©, before the end of the 21-day period. So, this does not apply.

You are then reliant on 8(4), the problems with which are:

Whereas submission of an OOT is free, and stays the enforcement process pro tem, an application to a DJ is not, current fee is of the order of £100 for consideration on the papers, and
The DJ is not an agony aunt or therapist, they apply the law. At present the OP has not suggested any grounds on which TEC would accept an Out of Time submission or a DJ overrule that decision.

I think there are two issues. Firstly, is it "service" given that the address was a previous one? Secondly, is the fact that the address was wrong grounds for TEC to accept the submission? Isn't it best to submit one ASAP in any case?

QUOTE
If the charges are owing and due, the debtor cannot impose a payment plan on the creditor, but they may ask.

True. But the LA will be experts in formulating payment plans. They will consider evidence about income, rent and other costs and any other debts, etc.
Neil B
QUOTE (zwekk @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 10:49) *
Fortunately, the OP has asked for help and isn't sitting on it.

The matter is extremely urgent.
The OP has not viewed responses since mid afternoon yesterday and, perhaps, why should they? As far as
we know the person being pursued hasn't posted here at all.

If they haven't read those responses, confirmed their understanding or asked for any clarification, then we can't
be assured they are acting or acting appropriately.
There is a daily processing deadline of 4pm to consider.

----
Your statements, around the excerpts from Regs. you have quoted, makes it all sound so easy and, as HCA explained, it isn't.

There is a massive difference between making an SD in-time and out-of-time.

----
At least two very knowledgeable members have stated it that it is too late to file an in-time SD and it appears so on the
face of it.
I will just say one more time, it might not be too late so OP's friend' priority is to find out.

I've posted the explanation umpteen times on forum so I'll limit it to >
QUOTE (zwekk @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 10:49) *
©that declaration is, before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the date on which notice of the county court’s order is served on him, served on the county court which made the order.

Is NOT the deadline TEC work to in practice.

That said, it IS now extremely close or beyond; fast action is imperative.
hcandersen
OP and zwekk, see this thread:

Help - Bailiffs notice of enforcement - first letter received, This is the first we are hearing of this

TEC refused an OOT even when the OP was far less culpable than here. As per others, OOTs failing are the norm and not receiving a PCN because you've not kept the state up to date with where statutory docs may be served does not cut the mustard.
cp8759
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 14:20) *
TEC refused an OOT even when the OP was far less culpable than here. As per others, OOTs failing are the norm and not receiving a PCN because you've not kept the state up to date with where statutory docs may be served does not cut the mustard.

+1

QUOTE (zwekk @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 11:11) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 10:58) *
SDs are not filed at a Magistrates' Court, they are submitted to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

Sorry I was unclear. They have to be sworn at a Magistrates Court (or otherwise) before submitted by post to the TEC, right?

Correct.
zwekk
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 14:20) *
OP and zwekk, see this thread:

Help - Bailiffs notice of enforcement - first letter received, This is the first we are hearing of this

TEC refused an OOT even when the OP was far less culpable than here. As per others, OOTs failing are the norm and not receiving a PCN because you've not kept the state up to date with where statutory docs may be served does not cut the mustard.


Yikes! I did a search to try and find the criterea guidance may still apply today:
QUOTE
Tip: If the LA do not send a full statement but simply advise they reject the
application, automatically grant the application.
If the respondent states that they moved addresses, check the system details
for the date of the move ….
Tip: If the respondent has stated in their OOT that they have moved address
before the notice to owner (NTO) was served or provided dates of when they
moved so we can see the NTO was not served, the COO should be accepted.
If the LA state in their rejection that they obtained the address from the DVLA
but the respondent moved before NTO, the COO would still be accepted.
If they have only stated that they moved address and have provided no
details, the COO would be refused. If the respondent admits that they did not
notify the DVLA of their address change, the COO would be refused.


But it still seems worth sending it off in case the LA do not reject. If the LA reject, it buys time and allows money to be saved up etc. Maybe a good opportunity to talk to the LA and negotiate payment plans.
estevenin
Just wanted to update for future viewers, case was reversed back to PCN. She used Bailiff Advice that gave them the letter to send. Thank you all for your advices.
cp8759
QUOTE (estevenin @ Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 21:10) *
Just wanted to update for future viewers, case was reversed back to PCN. She used Bailiff Advice that gave them the letter to send. Thank you all for your advices.

Get her to post the PCN, maybe we can get it cancelled completely.
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