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Sussexgirl
Hi all,

On 30th Jan my car was caught on a camera doing 37mph in a 30.
Letter regarding this was sent on 5th Feb.
I sent the driver details back asap.
(I was pregnant at the time and just found out my "partner" was having an affair. We had gone for a drive (he was driving) to talk rather than being stuck in the house. He even asked me to take the offence and do the speeding course for him as I had more free time. Obviously I said no way and furiously filled the form out and posted it off)
Fast forward to 17th September and an SJP comes to me. For speeding and failing to give drivers details!
The police have enclosed the pictures and luckily you can see the driver is male.
What do I do with regards to the plea? Any advice would be great.
peterguk
From what you say, it appears your driver nomination never arrived.

As you were not the driver, you can't do a deal with the prosecutor as is often recommended, and defending the S.172 charge is going to be difficult.

Did you get proof of postage?
Sussexgirl
No I didn't. I just filled out the back of the notice of intended prosecution and posted it.
Stupid yes but all of a sudden I was pregnant, on my own with 2 children already and looking for a new home.
Am I screwed on this?
Jlc
QUOTE (Sussexgirl @ Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 12:41) *
Am I screwed on this?

Not screwed but it makes it harder. You will have to convince the court you did respond. Whilst there's no requirement for reminders you can obviously state that you supplied the details (different address?) and did not expect to hear anything more. Some Forces do send reminders so you can play on that - you had no reason to believe your nomination wasn't received.

Pleading not guilty will require your attendance at court. As the photo's show you were not the driver it assists in that you had no reason not to respond - as you did know who was driving.

The penalty of failing to furnish is higher than the underlying charge - 6 points. Unfortunately (perhaps), the driver has escaped all punishment as it's too late to name the driver or pursue the underlying offence.
southpaw82
A bad situation all around. Do you have any witnesses who can corroborate that you responded and sent the notice back? Even if they can corroborate parts of your story, such as completing the notice, putting it in the envelope etc it bolsters your account. It seems like you’d have no reason not to return the notice - it doesn’t seem like you’d have wanted to protect your ex from the consequences.

Your only real options here are to fight or fold. Fight and you may be (and ought to be, on your account) be acquitted. Fail and it’s six points, a fine of roughly 150% of your weekly income, a surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30) and costs of several hundred pounds.

Fold and it’s the same as above but the fine would be reduced by 1/3 and the costs would be £85.
Sussexgirl
Thank you.
I don't want to fold as it's the principle of it (perhaps not the best attitude for a possible court hearing) I don't want to take the fall for him angry.gif
My address hasn't changed as I am still at the house. There were definitely no reminders.
Could I put him as a witness if he would admit it was him driving?
peterguk
QUOTE (Sussexgirl @ Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 14:49) *
Could I put him as a witness if he would admit it was him driving?

If the photo shows it wasn't you, that is all that matters. Calling him will add nothing to your case.
southpaw82
QUOTE (Sussexgirl @ Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 14:49) *
Could I put him as a witness if he would admit it was him driving?

You could. Whether he would give any useful evidence is another matter. What would you be calling him to say?
The Rookie
They can’t convict you of speeding, they have no evidence you were driving.

They can convict you of failing to provide details, who was driving isn’t really relevant to that except it’s quite clear you personally didn’t have anything to gain, and given your situation at the time arguably would have been overjoyed to name him.

Jlc
If he could evidence the filling in of the form and entering the postal system would be good... wink.gif

Fortunately perverting the course of justice didn't occur. The cheek!
Sussexgirl
Haha I know. I couldn't believe he even suggested it. I wouldn't have done it even if he hadn't been having it away with someone else.
The black and white photocopy that I have of the pictures is very obvious to me that it's a male. Would they have the actual original photo image that I presume is even clearer?
Jlc
Almost certainly, but the thrust of any defence is that you did nominate the driver and posted the reply.

(Not being the driver may only assist in showing you had no reason not to reply)
Sussexgirl
Ok,so I'll go with not guilty and go to court (gulp)
So they may drop the speeding but still with hold the part where I didn't give details? Or in a miracle case aquit me of both?
Jlc
You cannot be convicted of the speeding. (Not least as it wasn't you!)

Such charges are 'dual listed' to give the defendant the opportunity to 'plea bargain' (the more serious charge for the lessor) - but only if they were driving.
mdann52
Silly question, but did you only name one person on the form, fill in all the boxes and didn't add any comments indicating any doubt over the driver (ie. I think it was me)?
Logician
QUOTE (mdann52 @ Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 17:43) *
Silly question, but did you only name one person on the form, fill in all the boxes and didn't add any comments indicating any doubt over the driver (ie. I think it was me)?


or in this case, "I think it was him"

If your ex will come to court and say he knows you posted the reply nominating him as driver, or were certainly intending to, then that would be helpful. If he cannot say that, then there is nothing he could do to help even if he was willing to.

Sussexgirl
No I just put him. I know it was him.

Can I make any kind of plea bargain as I wasn't the driver? Or do I just have to accept that I will be done for not supplying details as I have no proof, except that it is him in the picture...
The Rookie
What sort of plea bargain? The only bargain is to plead guilty to speeding, but you know you weren’t and the photo shows you weren’t.

So you are left defending the S172 on the basis that you did reply and it wasn’t reasonably practicable for you to be aware that they hadn’t received it.
disgrunt
You definitely posted the reply? Or could you have left the filled in reply by the door to post next time you went out, and it disappeared meaning you forgot all about it, but believe you posted it?

What I'm getting at is could your ex have disposed of it whilst you believed it was posted?
andy_foster
Is there a statement from a CTO tubby stating what was sent, etc.?
Sussexgirl
CTO tubby?
What's that?
I posted it, at the end of my road.

Ah man they're going to do me for it aren't they. As if he didn't make me feel sh*t enough. I'll now have points and a fine as a lasting memory!

What's a CTO tubby?

peterguk
QUOTE (Sussexgirl @ Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 22:12) *
What's a CTO tubby?


AF slang for an employee at Central Ticket Office.
disgrunt
At the moment we don’t know if they lost your reply, or your reply was equivocal, or they sent a nip to your ex And the reply they got made them think you had not complied with the request properly.

Others will be able give more advice but you need to know the evidence you will be facing to decide if pleading guilty is the better course of actions.

However, you have a plausible story and appear to have nothing to gain by not replying so I’d be optimistic if it was me.
The Rookie
QUOTE (Sussexgirl @ Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 22:12) *
Ah man they're going to do me for it aren't they. !

why are you jumping to that conclusion, we’re only half way to sorting out all the possible issues. Stay calm, try to answer the questions. Do you have a witness statement from the staff at the camera office, what does it say? What documents sent to you or from you are included?
Sussexgirl
Sorry a pessimistic moment. Just feel screwed over again. I'll confirm what docs I have in the morn and hopefully there's something we can use!
nosferatu1001
Indeed, at the moment you appear to have a pretty good chance of defending this, based on the info you have given, because you really had NO reason NOT to nominate your ex, and frankly a fair few reasons TO nominate him!

The questions here are not meant to suggest you have no or a slim hope - we''re trying to find all and any angles on this so you have as much support as possible smile.gif
Churchmouse
QUOTE (disgrunt @ Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 23:12) *
At the moment we don’t know if they lost your reply, or your reply was equivocal, or they sent a nip to your ex And the reply they got made them think you had not complied with the request properly.

Like, she named him, and he named her sort of thing? I would have thought the police would have done something other than simply prosecute the RK in that situation.

--Churchmouse
Redivi
He's the one with the bigger problem if he named her

She says the picture clearly shows a male driver
Sussexgirl
Ok so my charges are:
Speeding exceeding 30mph. Automatic Camera Device
Fail to give information relating to ID of driver when required.
I have a section 20 certificate - Contravention of speed limit.
Detailing that car was caught on a Siemens Safezone camera.
Where it was operating, car make and model recorded in excess of 30mph speed limit.
This caused the device to produce a record in the form of photographs and data compromising exhibit EMP/1 which is then shown over leaf.
The device recorded the speed at 37mph.
Date signed 18.04.18.
There is then a witness statement. From the Camera Technician and Enforcement officer stating that he is employed by ******* police and what his duties are.
That the system auto populated a combine NIP and request u set section 172. Sent on 5th Feb.
It then says at the bottom of the letter.
"I can confirm that I have checked the computer system for a reply to section 172 request and there is no record of a reply to this request being received from the defendant. The system is such that the absence of a reply indicates no reply has been received"

The Rookie
Ok so your reply either didn’t arrive or,was lost internally. It doesn’t really matter which.

The law provides a defence if it’s not reasonably practicable to reply within 28 days, in your case while you sent it, it’s arguably not a reply unless received, but as they appear from their own evidence to have not sent a reminder (most areas do) then it wasn’t reasonably practicable to send it again!
Sussexgirl
Definitely no reminder....
So I would go for not guilty on both counts.
State driver not me. I did respond.
I have zero reason to not tell them who the driver was. Should I give back ground detail as to why I was so hellbent on getting the paperwork back? Or is that just tittle tattle to them?
southpaw82
QUOTE (Sussexgirl @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 17:04) *
I have zero reason to not tell them who the driver was. Should I give back ground detail as to why I was so hellbent on getting the paperwork back? Or is that just tittle tattle to them?

Yes. It goes towards your reason not to fail to name the driver. You’ll do all this at court from the witness box, you understand (assuming the matter proceeds to trial).
Sussexgirl
Not looking forward to that at all.
Ok I'm going to do the not guilty plea today. Shall I put everything in the mitigating circumstances on the form?
AntonyMMM
No - mitigation is for guilty pleas (or after having been found guilty).

You simply plead not guilty - I would add a simple "the driver nomination was completed and returned as required" so they know the basis of the case, which you would have to disclose anyway.

Then you wait for notification of a court date.
Sussexgirl
Ah right ok. Do you have any idea of how long these dates take to come through?
Also, can I take my baby with me? Not the greatest place to take her but she's breast fed.
Obviously I will get someone to wait outside the court room with her!!
The 2 boys I can get looked after
Logician
It all depends how busy the court is in the area, but do not expect it to happen very quickly. There will be a waiting area for people waiting for their cases to come on and witnesses, so there will be somewhere where you can sit with your baby and someone to look after her while you are in the court room.
Sussexgirl
Great, thanks everyone for your help!
Sussexgirl
Hi all,
I am in court tomorrow at 10am for
Speeding and Failure to give driver details

I pleaded not guilty on line as I wasn't driving, it was my partner at the time and I did send the paperwork.

So my letter giving me my court days says that...

The magistrate has decided it should go to a hearing before a full magistrates court (sounds frightening)

Reason- For a case management hearing (deft to attend) so that the court can decide how the trial will be conducted. Then it will be adjourned to another date when there is sufficient time to heat it in full.
If I attend, to arrive 30 mins early.
If I don't attend they may still deal with it in my absence.
If they don't have up to date info about my finances I may be ordered to pay a fine more than I can afford.

I know that writing all that makes it look pretty self explanatory, but do I literally wait to be called in, go in and say what happened and see what they say. Should I write down my incoming and outgoings to hand over?

Should I speak to the court staff first?
Jlc
Was the (s172 - name the driver) paperwork returned in time? Was it correctly filled in and signed?

Did you get proof of posting? Did you ever hear anything back?
BaggieBoy
Presumably this case? Hopefully a moderator will merge the threads.
Sussexgirl
Yes it's the same case smile.gif
nosferatu1001
Then you obviously hit REPORT on this thread and ask to be merged
One case, one thread.
NewJudge
QUOTE (Sussexgirl @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 09:59) *
I know that writing all that makes it look pretty self explanatory, but do I literally wait to be called in, go in and say what happened and see what they say. Should I write down my incoming and outgoings to hand over?

Should I speak to the court staff first?

The hearing you face tomorrow is purely an administrative one. Its purpose is to ensure everything is in place for the trial. You will be asked to state the basis of your NG plea (i.e. that you responded to the request as required). The only evidence you can provide (at the trial) is simply that. You have no issue about the notice being properly served on you. The decision for the Magistrates will be made simply on whether or not they find your evidence credible.

Be prepared for a bit of a wait tomorrow. In most courts defendants for Case Management hearings are all asked to attend at either 10am or 2pm. If you are taking your child with you tell them when you check in at reception (I expect they will notice!) and ask if they could arrange for the court to see you sooner rather than later. You cannot take your child into the courtroom so you will need somebody to tend to her whilst you are being dealt with (which should not take more than a few minutes).

A trial date will be set at the end of the hearing.
Sussexgirl
Thank you so much. I feel more at ease now.
Sussexgirl
Was given my trial date today as I didn't want to change my not guilty plea.
The chap from the police said they did send me a reminder in March (????) Which will go against me I suspect.
Sussexgirl
Hi there, I'm in court on Tuesday for this.
I was thinking that in the worst case scenario, it doesn't go in my favour. 6 points,a fine and court costs.
However I don't have 2 pennies to rub together, I have been served an eviction notice as I am behind in rent and I have just had a council tax liability order issued before Christmas.
Does anyone know what the court may issue or demand?
I did an affordability/expenses form when I had the 1st administrative hearing.

Many Thanks if anyone reads this old thread.
The Rookie
If found guilty of the S172 the fine will be 150% of your weekly take home (after tax and NI only), if that is less than £140 then £140 will be used (fine £210) plus a surcharge of 10% of the fine (minimum of £30) and prosecution costs following a trial of £620, so somewhere over £830.
NewJudge
The minimum assumed weekly income is actually £120pw, Rookie.

I think it unlikely that the prosecution will ask for £620 for what is essentially a “Section 9” trial (i.e. heard by way of statements only). The more likely figure is probably around £300. Of course the court always has the discretion to reduce the amount of costs awarded when considering the defendant’s means.
Sussexgirl
Aghhh ok, will they take weekly amounts or do I have to pay it there and then?

Also should I have written a statement?
The Rookie
You can ask for time to pay in instalments.

Thanks for the correction NJ.
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