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explorer87
Hi all,

First post here so please go easy.

On the 22nd May 2018 I performed a contravention 50(J) which is performing a prohibited turn from Barnet Council. The fine was £130 with a 14 day 50% discount period, which would rise to £195 if paid after.

I appealed this on the grounds that the signs of this prohibited turn were restricted to which it got rejected on the 4th July.

I then had a further 14 days discount period. However at this stage this is where it becomes tricky. The letter stated that I had two options:

1. To pay the fine for £65 with 14 days and the matter is closed (or £130 within 28 days)
2. To lodge an appeal with an independent adjudicator.

On the 17th July I paid the £65, but also appealed with the adjudicator on the same day thinking if the free appeal gets accepted I will be entitled to a refund of the £65. Unfortunately one week the appeal got rejected and the letter advised me to pay the charge. As I had already paid the charge at the discounted rate I didn't think there was anything further I needed to do.

However last week Barnet Council wrote to me advising that since the appeal has been rejected and it is more than 28 days since the 4th July, I now owe a further £130. Failure to pay within 14 will incur a further charge of £8 and a debt passed onto the county court.

I spoke to them on the phone this morning and they advised me that the letter on the 4th July states you can either pay the charge or appeal. Since I have done both, this apparently re opened the case despite paying the £65 charge at the discounted rate.

Please advise what your thoughts are at this stage.

Many thanks
stamfordman
Paying closes the case. Appealing keeps it open. You can't do both.

Are you saying your adjudication was held in 1 week? That isn't right surely.

Post all the docs.

Use a site such as https://imgbb.com and post the BBcode links.
explorer87
On the same day I payed the fine, I appealed to an independent adjudicator as I believed I didn't have anything to lose.

As I lost the formal appeal but payed at the fine at the discounted rate, do I have to pay the additional £130 that Barnet Council are demanding?

The result of the adjudication was made on the 17th August, which states that I must pay the full amount of the PCN within 28 days otherwise the enforcement authority can increase their charge by 50%
Neil B
Still not making sense.

What is the tribunal case number?
explorer87
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:05) *
Paying closes the case. Appealing keeps it open. You can't do both.

Are you saying your adjudication was held in 1 week? That isn't right surely.

Post all the docs.

Use a site such as https://imgbb.com and post the BBcode links.


Apologies the result of the appeal with London Tribunals was held on the 17th August.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 00:51) *
Still not making sense.

What is the tribunal case number?


I have a case reference number with London Tribunals if that is what you are referring too?
Earl Purple
When you paid £65 had the discount period already passed, in which case you paid only half the penalty and didn't clear it. Thus it is not a fully paid PCN. I guess that is what happened and then it went through to the Charge Certificate phase.

There are two "appeals", one with the council and one with the independent tribunal. And with the council there are often 2 phases, an informal and a formal one. Informal ones will often be rejected but allowing you to still pay the discount rate.



PASTMYBEST
Yes case reference number.

Think I understand. You paid £65 then appealed, You thought that would be it. But you lost the appeal so the amount due was £130, you did not pay the other £65 so a charge certificate for that amount was served

Post the CC that will help clear things up
Mr Mustard
We need to see the Notice of Rejection as well please, especially the part setting out your choices so that we can compare what was offered with what the regulations state.

An adjudicator will probably regard you as trying to have your cake and eat it. When you lost, the tribunal letter will have told you what to pay and that there is no further reminder to pay. Can we see that letter also please.

An adjudicator has no power to reduce the value of a PCN. He is deciding if the PCN, worth £130, should be upheld or cancelled. He/she decided to uphold the PCN thus you owed £130 less £65 paid.

The whole point about 50% discounts is that they are inducements to not fight the PCN, a reward for saving the council's time. By making an Appeal to the tribunal you cost the council a £30 fee which won't have endeared you to them. (I think discounts should go and PCNs should be for more reasonable values but that is a point of view for general discussion).
DancingDad
Date of appeal decision 17th August 2018 ??
Date of Charge Certificate please ?

I think Barnett have used the wrong date to justify issue of the CC and as such have issued it early and unlawfully.
Which may give you another bite of the cherry and could get the PCN cancelled.
That you paid the £65 is irrelevant, key date is the date of the adjudication decision and when they say you have to pay, that is what sets the clock ticking.

But confirm dates above please.
And wording of LT decision on payment..... pay the £130 within 28 days of what date?
And does it use the word "within".... exact wording please.
explorer87
Appreciate all the feedback guys.

As I have lost some of the paper work of the case I will give as much information as I can here.

PCN : AG90482327
Date of contravention : 22/05/18
Contravention : 50J - performing a prohibited turn.

Date of PCN issued 07/06/18
I then appealed this against the council on the ground there were not clear signs.

Appeal rejected 2nd July (I have lost this letter and have requested from Barnet council a copy of this).

According to the women from Barnet council yesterday the letter stated I had two options. To pay the PCN within 14 days at £65 or 28 days at £130. OR Appeal with London tribunals. If the appeal gets accepted PCN cancelled. If the appeal gets rejected I will have to pay the PCN.


16th July - Pay £65 PCN at reduced rate
16th July - Appeal online to London Tribunal (Case reference : 2180277632).

17th August : Email response from London Tribunal case rejected and must pay full PCN within 28 days.

14th September : Charge Certificate from Barnet Council wanting £195 to pay within 14 days other wise they 'may register the charge as a debt at the county court'. Also something to notice that the letter is demanding I must pay the increased penalty charge of £195 within 14 days. However when I go online to pay this it is only asking for £130 (it has deducted the £65 I have already paid). As the wording in this letter is not technically correct can the charge notice be cancelled on that ground?


Additionally I understand I am able to appeal the charge if:

Where an Order for Recovery has been made, liability for the penalty can then only be challenged in the following circumstances:

You did not receive the postal Penalty Charge Notice or Notice to Owner in question; or
You made representations to the enforcement authority concerned but did not receive a Notice of Rejection from that authority; or
You appealed to the adjudicator against the rejection by the enforcement authority of your representations but had no response to the appeal; or
The appeal had not been determined by the time the charge certificate was served, or it was determined in your favour; or
You had paid the penalty charge.


As I have paid the penalty charge on the 16th July, do I have a case to uphold paying a further £130?

PASTMYBEST
The CC is demanding to much, that would be a winning appeal if there is a way you can get there. but the council would have the right to demand £130
Neil B
QUOTE (explorer87 @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 09:38) *
I have a case reference number with London Tribunals if that is what you are referring too?

and we DON'T !
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 15:47) *
QUOTE (explorer87 @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 09:38) *
I have a case reference number with London Tribunals if that is what you are referring too?

and we DON'T !



Post the case reference number, You might be able to ask for a review as new evidence has come to light. i:e the penalty exceeds the amount etc
DancingDad
Fooking 'ell, close but just on the right side.
Within 28 days of 17th August takes us to 14th Sept.
Which means that council are entitled to send a CC anytime after 14th but NOT on or before.
In doing so, it represents and unlawful demand for money, as said, ground of the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due within circumstances of the case.

Which is a new fact and entitles Op to a review in the interests of justice.
If LT accepts, should see the PCN cancelled, as minimum see the adjudicator instructing council to cancel the CC and provide a new period for payment.
explorer87
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 15:54) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 15:47) *
QUOTE (explorer87 @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 09:38) *
I have a case reference number with London Tribunals if that is what you are referring too?

and we DON'T !



Post the case reference number, You might be able to ask for a review as new evidence has come to light. i:e the penalty exceeds the amount etc


Case reference : 2180277632

Barnet Council are saying the penalty exceeds the amount of £130 because I never paid the full PCN before the 14th September.

Do you believe I have a case, and if so what should my next stages be?
DancingDad
QUOTE (explorer87 @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:17) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 15:54) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 15:47) *
QUOTE (explorer87 @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 09:38) *
I have a case reference number with London Tribunals if that is what you are referring too?

and we DON'T !



Post the case reference number, You might be able to ask for a review as new evidence has come to light. i:e the penalty exceeds the amount etc


Case reference : 2180277632

Barnet Council are saying the penalty exceeds the amount of £130 because I never paid the full PCN before the 14th September.

Do you believe I have a case, and if so what should my next stages be?



And Barnett are wrong, pure and simple as long as that word "within" is in the decision and instructions to pay from adjudicator.
That word means that count starts on the day after the 17th.... well established legal fact.


My aim now would be to get the PCN cancelled..... that you have not paid the final £65 owing may be against you but does not alter that the council have blown it in issuing a CC early
PASTMYBEST
Lets be sure you understand what is happening.

You cannot challenge the charge certificate there is no mechanism for doing so That you have already paid is not really true.


What you want to do is apply to London tribunals for your case to be reviewed. The grounds for this to be done is that new evidence has come to light that could not be known before the appeal was heard.


This new evidence should consist of two parts.


That the charge certificate has been issued earlier than allowed by statute and that the amount demanded by the CC is in excess of that allowed by statute


Do not rush into this but be aware that time is not your friend. Post a draft here for review before sending
Neil B
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:22) *
And Barnett are wrong, pure and simple as long as that word "within" is in the decision and instructions to pay from adjudicator.
That word means that count starts on the day after the 17th.... well established legal fact.

One little issue is that the Tribunal is using flawed wording, at odds with legislation under which the deadline was 13th.

But as you say, an instruction from an adjudicator and they can instruct whatever they like I suppose.

---
I'm also curious if the adjudicator understood that £65 had already been paid? Given -
'Full penalty charge notice amount stated to be paid within 28 days.'

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:37) *
That the charge certificate has been issued earlier than allowed by statute

As I've just said, it isn't; it's only at odds with the adjudicator.



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:37) *
and that the amount demanded by the CC is in excess of that allowed by statute

I'm not getting that?
Enceladus
The decision is dated the 16th August. I take it this was not a personal hearing so you were informed of the outcome by post?
What date is on the decision letter, the 17th August maybe?
And do you have the envelope? Is there a postmark/franking mark? If yes, what date?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:46) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:22) *
And Barnett are wrong, pure and simple as long as that word "within" is in the decision and instructions to pay from adjudicator.
That word means that count starts on the day after the 17th.... well established legal fact.

One little issue is that the Tribunal is using flawed wording, at odds with legislation under which the deadline was 13th.

But as you say, an instruction from an adjudicator and they can instruct whatever they like I suppose.

---
I'm also curious if the adjudicator understood that £65 had already been paid? Given -
'Full penalty charge notice amount stated to be paid within 28 days.'

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:37) *
That the charge certificate has been issued earlier than allowed by statute

As I've just said, it isn't; it's only at odds with the adjudicator.



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:37) *
and that the amount demanded by the CC is in excess of that allowed by statute

I'm not getting that?


Op said the CC is demanding £195 so exceeds the amount due £130

We really need to see documents
Neil B
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:25) *
The decision is dated the 16th August. I take it this was not a personal hearing so you were informed of the outcome by post?
What date is on the decision letter, the 17th August maybe?
And do you have the envelope? Is there a postmark/franking mark? If yes, what date?

QUOTE (explorer87 @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 15:08) *
17th August : Email response from London Tribunal case rejected and must pay full PCN within 28 days.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE
14th September : Charge Certificate from Barnet Council wanting £195 to pay within 14 days other wise they 'may register the charge as a debt at the county court'. Also something to notice that the letter is demanding I must pay the increased penalty charge of £195 within 14 days. However when I go online to pay this it is only asking for £130 (it has deducted the £65 I have already paid). As the wording in this letter is not technically correct can the charge notice be cancelled on that ground?



What it says on the legal document takes precedent over what it says on a website
cp8759
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 19:06) *
QUOTE
14th September : Charge Certificate from Barnet Council wanting £195 to pay within 14 days other wise they 'may register the charge as a debt at the county court'. Also something to notice that the letter is demanding I must pay the increased penalty charge of £195 within 14 days. However when I go online to pay this it is only asking for £130 (it has deducted the £65 I have already paid). As the wording in this letter is not technically correct can the charge notice be cancelled on that ground?



What it says on the legal document takes precedent over what it says on a website

+1, the CC is demanding too much. A motorist might just pay by cheque and never find out they were over-charged.
Neil B
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:50) *
Op said the CC is demanding £195 so exceeds the amount due £130

Yeah, sorry PMB, I missed that.
Mr Mustard
The OP is out of time for a review request, it might be considered out of time in the circumstances but we need to see documents before we can suggest the best course.
hcandersen
OP, you have no option other than to post the letters, we cannot advise on your take on what a letter might say/mean.

Leave in all dates.

To try and summarise as I see it:
Barnet’s Notice of Rejection of Representations;
How you paid the £65 and whether you have a receipt;
The adjudicator’s letter notifying you of the decision in your case and the actions you must take;
Barnet’s CC.

Barnet’s NOR will tell us the latest date - which has to be calculated - by which you could pay £65;
You’ll tell us how and when you paid and we’ll work out whether this was in time;
The adjudicator’s letter will tell us the outstanding penalty and the earliest date on which a CC may be served;
The issue date of their CC will tell us whether it was issued early;
The contents will tell us what is being demanded.

Over to you.

explorer87
Hi all,

Sorry for the delay in response.

Please see attachments and advise any further comments. The date of the letter from London Tribunal giving the outcome was the 17th August and the last two attachments are my Charge Certificate from Barnet Council sent to me on the 14th September.

As you can see in my next post on Monday this week I requested via email from Barnet Council a copy of the notice of rejection letter but I am yet to receive that and only received an automated email response.

Many thanks
explorer87
Automatic reply: PCN : AG90482327
B
Barnet <Barnet@nslservices.co.uk>
Reply|
Mon 17/09, 13:28
You
Thank you for your email. This email service deals with the following matters -

* General enquiries and representations relating to Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) issued by London Borough of Barnet for a parking, bus lane or moving traffic contravention.

* General enquiries relating to enforcement issues in Barnet.

* Complaints, comments and feedback about our services.

If your email is regarding a PCN issued by London Borough of Barnet (easily identified by the prefix AG) we will aim to respond to your enquiry within 14 days of receipt of your email. Please ensure the AG reference number is detailed in your
email. Dependant on the level of investigation required, some responses may take longer than the specified time scale. In all cases, communication sent in relation to PCNs will be placed on hold for the duration of the investigation and until
the expiry of the timescale specified in the decision notice.

If your email is not related to a PCN, a response will be sent to you within 14 days. However, this could take longer depending on the level of investigation needed and the nature of your enquiry, in line with any relevant legislation. Please
indicate in your email if you would prefer a response sent via post; if so please include a full name and postal address in order for us to reply.

Please note that if you would like to make a representation against a PCN by post, it must be signed by the registered keeper of the vehicle and sent to the postal address shown on the penalty charge notice (see below) -

Barnet Parking Services
PO Box 197
Lowton Way
Hellaby
Sheffield
S98 1LW

Alternatively, you can submit your representation online by visiting the website:
http://parkingservices.nsl.co.uk/barnet/notices/

However, we will still consider your representation if received via this email inbox.

Thank you for contacting Barnet Parking Services.

For further information, please visit our website at:
https://www.barnet.gov.uk/citizen-home/park...vements/parking





NSL LIMITED DISCLAIMER
The contents of this e-mail are for use by the intended addressee(s) only and may contain legally privileged material and confidential information that is exempt from disclosure by law. Please note that if you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail by you is strictly prohibited and you must not read, use or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender by return e-mail or by telephoning 0844 870 7070
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Registered number - 06033060
Mr Mustard
we really need the entire front page of the charge certificate please
explorer87
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 22:10) *
we really need the entire front page of the charge certificate please


For what reason may I ask? As it contains my home address
PASTMYBEST
Time is not your friend obscure your name and address and post everything else
explorer87
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 22:34) *
Time is not your friend obscure your name and address and post everything else


That is all the documents I have on the case right now.
Mr Mustard
We need the entire page of the charge certificate to see all dates & amounts. Technical errors lead to solutions sometimes. Just cover your name address and vehicle registration or email it to mrmustard@zoho.com and I will do it
explorer87
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 23:45) *
We need the entire page of the charge certificate to see all dates & amounts. Technical errors lead to solutions sometimes. Just cover your name address and vehicle registration or email it to mrmustard@zoho.com and I will do it


Thank you very much - have just emailed you
Neil B
QUOTE (explorer87 @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 00:39) *
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 23:45) *
We need the entire page of the charge certificate to see all dates & amounts. Technical errors lead to solutions sometimes. Just cover your name address and vehicle registration or email it to mrmustard@zoho.com and I will do it


Thank you very much - have just emailed you

Oh, don't mind the rest of us, for lack of a matchbox. rolleyes.gif
Mr Mustard
Still in bed but I plan to upload the redacted charge certificate
Mr Mustard
Charge certificate



On the council website the sum payable is £130 so this is a failure of the charge certificate to credit payments made against the PCN. (£130 pcn + 50% uplift of £65 - £65 paid = £130)

I will upload the standard wording from a Notice of Rejection in a few minutes.
Mr Mustard
Here is the relevant page of a Notice of Rejection dated 3 July for a Barnet box junction so the same standard letter as for a banned turn (the OP has asked Barnet for a copy of his)



An adjudicator will most likely regard trying to pay 50% in full & final settlement and then subsequently going to Appeal as an attempt to game the system. Adjudicators can only allow or refuse an Appeal at the full price of the PCN unless the council either offer to accept 50% or the Adjudicator makes a recommendation which the council decide to follow.

The council's Notice of Rejection is badly phrased and some will regard it as outside the black letter of the law but a purposive view will be taken by adjudicators, in my humble opinion.

The OP has possibly been too cute and is now finding himself facing an extra £65 because of it.

I don't see that a Statutory Declaration can be made.
A review request to the tribunal is out of time.
That leaves a complaint to Barnet Council as an option on the grounds that their Charge Certificate is an illegal demand for an excessive sum backed by the threat of Court action. (I can ask the parking manager to fix them for the future)

I'll see what others think.

Neil B
Tks M.
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 10:08) *
A review request to the tribunal is out of time.

It is but with a strong reason to be considered; The current matter has only just occurred.

I'm not sure we're seeking a review as such, as we are not querying the original decision.

Suggestion:
Perhaps write to LT, explaining --
-- CC, just issued, exceeds the amount due.
-- V briefly explain why CC issued at all, i.e. not understanding £65 was to be paid.
-- No other avenues open to address the unlawful CC.

LT might choose to deal with it as a review or might respond in some other way; I can't think what though.

---

No option to make an SD based on PCN paid (i.e. pay the £130 first) as no such option on an SD.

--

OR
the complaint to Barnet.

--
Whatever it is -- pronto.
hcandersen
Can we just get the facts in play.

NOR dated 3 July. Deemed served 5th.
The authority would accept £65 if paid no later than 19th ( ‘within 14 days of service’ = 14 days after).
‘On the 17th July I paid the £65,’ (but you’ve still not said how you paid e.g. online, cheque in post?

Assuming payment received no later than 19th then that’s the end of the matter.

IMO, it doesn’t matter that the OP submitted an appeal. The authority’s ONLY possible option on receipt of notification from ETA was to notify them that the penalty had been paid and accepted. Nothing is owng, the case is closed.

So OP, this distils itself into simple facts:
When and how did you pay the £65?
What proof do you have?
The CC does not acknowledge receipt of £65, the outstanding amount is £195.

explorer87
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 11:03) *
Can we just get the facts in play.

NOR dated 3 July. Deemed served 5th.
The authority would accept £65 if paid no later than 19th ( ‘within 14 days of service’ = 14 days after).
‘On the 17th July I paid the £65,’ (but you’ve still not said how you paid e.g. online, cheque in post?

Assuming payment received no later than 19th then that’s the end of the matter.

IMO, it doesn’t matter that the OP submitted an appeal. The authority’s ONLY possible option on receipt of notification from ETA was to notify them that the penalty had been paid and accepted. Nothing is owng, the case is closed.

So OP, this distils itself into simple facts:
When and how did you pay the £65?
What proof do you have?
The CC does not acknowledge receipt of £65, the outstanding amount is £195.

Mr Mustard
I like HCA's thinking but there aren't grounds for the tribunal to refuse to let an Appeal be filed. What does happen sometimes is that the council tells the tribunal that 50% has been paid and the tribunal then write to the Appellant and ask them to choose between paying the 50% or making an Appeal. The council do admit that £65 was paid as I have checked the balance on line.

I found a 2 year old charge certificate, the sum due was explained better back then.

explorer87
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 10:08) *
Here is the relevant page of a Notice of Rejection dated 3 July for a Barnet box junction so the same standard letter as for a banned turn (the OP has asked Barnet for a copy of his)



An adjudicator will most likely regard trying to pay 50% in full & final settlement and then subsequently going to Appeal as an attempt to game the system. Adjudicators can only allow or refuse an Appeal at the full price of the PCN unless the council either offer to accept 50% or the Adjudicator makes a recommendation which the council decide to follow.

The council's Notice of Rejection is badly phrased and some will regard it as outside the black letter of the law but a purposive view will be taken by adjudicators, in my humble opinion.

The OP has possibly been too cute and is now finding himself facing an extra £65 because of it.

I don't see that a Statutory Declaration can be made.
A review request to the tribunal is out of time.
That leaves a complaint to Barnet Council as an option on the grounds that their Charge Certificate is an illegal demand for an excessive sum backed by the threat of Court action. (I can ask the parking manager to fix them for the future)

I'll see what others think.


Just for clarity I have paid £65 on the 17th July, and now Barnet Council are wanting a further £130 (not £65).

In some respects the letter of the Charge Certificate is incorrect because as paragraph 4 states:

' As a result, the penalty charge has now increased by 50% to £195. You must pay this increased charge no later than the last day of the 14 day period..."

However when I login into the online portal to see what charge is outstanding in respect to this case, it is only asking for payment for £130 and therefore this charge certificate does not take into account that I have already made a payment of £65. Thoughts anyone?Click to view attachment
Mr Mustard
Here is a case I lost at the tribunal - this one is slightly different in that the motorist didn't tell me what he was doing in terms of payment and I made the Appeal so as not to miss the 28 day deadline for doing so & that the council were kind to him and extended the time to pay at 50% - 218016475A

Mr Dishman represents the Appellant.

The contravention is not denied.

The Authority issued a Notice of Rejection on 2 April 2018 which included an offer to settle at the reduced rate provided that the amount is paid within 14 days of service of the notice. Assuming that the notice is posted by first class post on the same day, the date of service is deemed to be the second working day after posting. The last day of the discount period was therefore 17 April.

The Appellant tried to pay on the 17 April but the system demanded the full payment. He contacted the Authority by email asking for the discount to be restored.

The Authority informed the Appellant on 24 April that the discount is re-offered and it was paid.

This was not known to Mr Dishman, who made an appeal on 24 April. The Authority demands the full amount. Mr Dishman submits that the appeal was made bearing in mind the 28 days deadline and in ignorance of the re-offering of the discount, and the Authority has not made that offer conditional.

I can accept that neither the Appellant nor Mr Dishman intended to ambush the Authority and that Mr Dishman has restricted the appeal to this point only. I would also accept that this confusion would not have occurred if the Authority had not misunderstood the end date of the first offer of settlement.

However, there is no legal difference between the above and an Appellant hedging his position by paying at the reduced rate and appealing. The proposal is that where an Appellant has made an appeal and paid at the reduced rate, the Authority is not entitled to seek the full amount. If Mr Dishman were to succeed in this argument, it would mean that Appellant can restrict his potential loss to the reduced rate even after an appeal. This cannot be right.

I refuse the appeal.


Discount and appeal - 'It cannot be right' - only one adjudicator's view but others would most likely think the same, is what I think. This was for being parked on keep clear markings so the ground of Procedural Impropriety was not available.
explorer87
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 11:30) *
Here is a case I lost at the tribunal - this one is slightly different in that the motorist didn't tell me what he was doing in terms of payment and I made the Appeal so as not to miss the 28 day deadline for doing so & that the council were kind to him and extended the time to pay at 50% - 218016475A

Mr Dishman represents the Appellant.

The contravention is not denied.

The Authority issued a Notice of Rejection on 2 April 2018 which included an offer to settle at the reduced rate provided that the amount is paid within 14 days of service of the notice. Assuming that the notice is posted by first class post on the same day, the date of service is deemed to be the second working day after posting. The last day of the discount period was therefore 17 April.

The Appellant tried to pay on the 17 April but the system demanded the full payment. He contacted the Authority by email asking for the discount to be restored.

The Authority informed the Appellant on 24 April that the discount is re-offered and it was paid.

This was not known to Mr Dishman, who made an appeal on 24 April. The Authority demands the full amount. Mr Dishman submits that the appeal was made bearing in mind the 28 days deadline and in ignorance of the re-offering of the discount, and the Authority has not made that offer conditional.

I can accept that neither the Appellant nor Mr Dishman intended to ambush the Authority and that Mr Dishman has restricted the appeal to this point only. I would also accept that this confusion would not have occurred if the Authority had not misunderstood the end date of the first offer of settlement.

However, there is no legal difference between the above and an Appellant hedging his position by paying at the reduced rate and appealing. The proposal is that where an Appellant has made an appeal and paid at the reduced rate, the Authority is not entitled to seek the full amount. If Mr Dishman were to succeed in this argument, it would mean that Appellant can restrict his potential loss to the reduced rate even after an appeal. This cannot be right.

I refuse the appeal.


Discount and appeal - 'It cannot be right' - only one adjudicator's view but others would most likely think the same, is what I think. This was for being parked on keep clear markings so the ground of Procedural Impropriety was not available.


Can I ask what were you appealing for on the 24th April?
explorer87
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 11:19) *
I like HCA's thinking but there aren't grounds for the tribunal to refuse to let an Appeal be filed. What does happen sometimes is that the council tells the tribunal that 50% has been paid and the tribunal then write to the Appellant and ask them to choose between paying the 50% or making an Appeal. The council do admit that £65 was paid as I have checked the balance on line.

I found a 2 year old charge certificate, the sum due was explained better back then.



Yes, the council failed to tell the tribunal that £65 had been paid and as the result of the appeal is that I owe the full PCN (£130) within 28 days. Surely a mishap from the council here? This was why I never responded to this email from London Tribunal as I knew it was incorrect information and the fact I had paid the £65 on the 17th July I made the assumption that the case had been closed with the Council.
hcandersen
Back to facts, and I’m STILL waiting! OP, I want to know your proof that you paid and that this was accepted. Don’t tell me, show me.

This has nothing to do with the appeal IF the OP paid the charge demanded by the council i.e. £65 within 14 days of service of the NOR. The rest is default based on misinformation.

OP, I’ll ask for the last time:
How and when did you pay and what proof do you have?
explorer87
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 12:05) *
Back to facts, and I’m STILL waiting! OP, I want to know your proof that you paid and that this was accepted. Don’t tell me, show me.

This has nothing to do with the appeal IF the OP paid the charge demanded by the council i.e. £65 within 14 days of service of the NOR. The rest is default based on misinformation.

OP, I’ll ask for the last time:
How and when did you pay and what proof do you have?


I uploaded in a previous post proof of receipt of online payment ! I will do it again...

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 12:05) *
Back to facts, and I’m STILL waiting! OP, I want to know your proof that you paid and that this was accepted. Don’t tell me, show me.

This has nothing to do with the appeal IF the OP paid the charge demanded by the council i.e. £65 within 14 days of service of the NOR. The rest is default based on misinformation.

OP, I’ll ask for the last time:
How and when did you pay and what proof do you have?


Payment Confirmation
P
parkingservices@barnet.gov.uk
Reply|
Tue 17/07, 04:40
You
This is an e-mail from London Borough of Barnet

Your payment has been processed successfully. The details of your payment are :

Payment Reference : 505970
Penalty Charge Notice : AG90482327
Amount Paid : 65.00 pounds
Date Paid : 17-Jul-2018
Our Reference : 3100108455385663
User Tx Reference : AG90482327505970

This message has been generated automatically. Please do not reply.
hcandersen
Game over IF the payment went through your account.

Step outside the procedure.

Dear Mr. Parking,
Re PCN ***********; VRM **********

I refer to the above issued on *****.

Between the two of us we’ve rather made a mess of matters: me because I accepted the offer made in your NOR dated 3 July to pay the discount no later than 19th July ( your NOR states ‘within 14 days of service’) to close matters; the authority because I paid £65 on **( see enclosed acknowledgement) but also registered an appeal on being notified of which you did not see that the case was closed and no penalty was owing. Instead you then pursued a non-existent penalty to adjudication and to make matters worse then issued a Charge Certificate, the icing on the cake of which is that even at this stage you had not recognised that £65 had been paid.

I hope I can rely on you to learn from this issue, after all you had three separate opportunities to put 2 and 2 together. I know I have. What I do not want to happen is that you continue to pursue a non-existent penalty, especially after I have brought these matters to your attention. Should this matter not be finally concluded now then I could not be held responsible for the collateral damage which any inevitable complaint from me might cause to your service.

I look forward to your written confirmation that this matter is now at an end.

Regards,



explorer87
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 11:30) *
Here is a case I lost at the tribunal - this one is slightly different in that the motorist didn't tell me what he was doing in terms of payment and I made the Appeal so as not to miss the 28 day deadline for doing so & that the council were kind to him and extended the time to pay at 50% - 218016475A

Mr Dishman represents the Appellant.

The contravention is not denied.

The Authority issued a Notice of Rejection on 2 April 2018 which included an offer to settle at the reduced rate provided that the amount is paid within 14 days of service of the notice. Assuming that the notice is posted by first class post on the same day, the date of service is deemed to be the second working day after posting. The last day of the discount period was therefore 17 April.

The Appellant tried to pay on the 17 April but the system demanded the full payment. He contacted the Authority by email asking for the discount to be restored.

The Authority informed the Appellant on 24 April that the discount is re-offered and it was paid.

This was not known to Mr Dishman, who made an appeal on 24 April. The Authority demands the full amount. Mr Dishman submits that the appeal was made bearing in mind the 28 days deadline and in ignorance of the re-offering of the discount, and the Authority has not made that offer conditional.

I can accept that neither the Appellant nor Mr Dishman intended to ambush the Authority and that Mr Dishman has restricted the appeal to this point only. I would also accept that this confusion would not have occurred if the Authority had not misunderstood the end date of the first offer of settlement.

However, there is no legal difference between the above and an Appellant hedging his position by paying at the reduced rate and appealing. The proposal is that where an Appellant has made an appeal and paid at the reduced rate, the Authority is not entitled to seek the full amount. If Mr Dishman were to succeed in this argument, it would mean that Appellant can restrict his potential loss to the reduced rate even after an appeal. This cannot be right.

I refuse the appeal.


Discount and appeal - 'It cannot be right' - only one adjudicator's view but others would most likely think the same, is what I think. This was for being parked on keep clear markings so the ground of Procedural Impropriety was not available.


This is another caveat in the case.

On the barnet council website it strictly states that by paying the PCN you are admitting liability and you can't appeal. Therefore if I had won the appeal with London Tribunal it wouldn't have made a difference it seems.
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