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Generalbear
Hey all
Today received a PCN for a bus lane violation. Having never received one in the 20 years I've been a road user.

I've included a pic of the pcn

I believe that there is an issue with the signage and I don't agree with contravention being fair
As it is located at the end of a road user as the main terminus for the buses, the buses block the only signs
I have a pic to prove this
Meaning once buses are at the stops and moving through the road
You don't know it exists untill its too late , as in this case I have over taken a bus without seeing the sign, once ive passed the bus I'm in the base lane/ gate.
This new and only implemented end of Feb this year ( discovered after pcn)
Previously a closed bus lane and the traffic lit due to road works.

Untill today i also have no idea what a bus gate was i did see the words on the road but i assumed it was for the buses as i have only ever heard of a bus lane

Any ideas
Generalbear
the road lay out and view for driver
cp8759
show us the rest of the PCN.
Generalbear
the back included?
cp8759
Yes we need to see the back, errors in the small print can make the PCN invalid.
Generalbear
The back

the back
cp8759
The council website shows a video for a different vehicle, J33 VJC. However the photos are clear enough and we have to assume the correct video does exist somewhere. The location is here. I'm afraid even if you'd never heard of a bus gate, the blue signs are pretty clear.
Generalbear
See pics above the signs are easily obscured though

Where did you find the video?
cp8759
If you log onto the council website using the PCN number and your number plate, there's an option to download the video. It's all well and good to say the signs could be easily obscured, but the council has this photo (taken from the correct video):



Given it was a bright sunny day, and there's signs on both sides of the road, the fact that the nearside sign is facing slightly towards the nearside probably isn't going to be enough as it would have still been visible to you.
Generalbear
Not with a bus in front of it and bushes the other side obstructing vision untill you are on top of it
cp8759
But the council photo doesn't show a bus in front of you. At this point I'd advise you email the council and tell them the wrong video has been uploaded to the website, and ask them to provide the correct video, then at least you'll know where you stand.
Generalbear
Appreciate all your feed back and help
The video I'm seeing I can't make out the number plate but it appears to me

Also you can't see the bus as the bus stop is behind the camera
Look at the pic of the buses you can see the camera on the lamp post in front of the bus

Also
Shouldn't there be a sign stating there is a bus lane a head? Or the road sign indicating indicating no through road?
Or lines on the road indicating the start of the bus lane?

As stated it's a genuine mistake given the signs were obstructed
cp8759
Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvzGDFCjFF4

It clearly shows that you turned left onto Vincent's walk and there was no bus ahead of you. Making stuff up won't help and will just hurt your credibility.

At this point you're just left with the option of a technical appeal, however for us to explore this you need to upload images of the PCN that are not cropped or out of focus so we can check the small print for errors.
Generalbear
Not making anything up at all.
There's no left turn as it's a straight road
I went round a bus and subsequent pedestrians came back to my side of the road and then I'm in the lane as the video shows 5
Incandescent
Are there any advance signs. Surely a street which is essentially a dead-end for a motorist should have some warning, not just the two signs at the start of the bus gate?
cp8759
QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 23:00) *
Not making anything up at all.
There's no left turn as it's a straight road
I went round a bus and subsequent pedestrians came back to my side of the road and then I'm in the lane as the video shows 5

This frame from the video shows no bus, but from the position of your rear wheels it appears you came from this alley https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.9040158,-...33;8i6656?hl=en (or at least from that direction):



Regardless, it is quite clear there was nothing obstructing your view of the signs so I wouldn't pursue that angle. If you want to to check the PCN for errors, please upload an in-focus, non-cropped version of the PCN.
Generalbear
As previously stated the bus stop is before the camera and the ally.
This is my reason for complaining.
I have uploaded pics showing you the signage from a driver's viewpoint
The camera is placed after the obstructions
Hence why the video does not show the buses
Are any council stupid enough to have video evidence that the signs are easily obscured by buses or bushes ?

I'll retake pcn pics now

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 23:11) *
Are there any advance signs. Surely a street which is essentially a dead-end for a motorist should have some warning, not just the two signs at the start of the bus gate?

No no signs at all
cp8759
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 23:11) *
Are there any advance signs. Surely a street which is essentially a dead-end for a motorist should have some warning, not just the two signs at the start of the bus gate?

There are, the only route open to all traffic has a sign saying it's a no through road: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.902901,-1...33;8i6656?hl=en

The only other route is blocked by a bus gate: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.902727,-1...33;8i6656?hl=en

As it's a 20 zone, you'd be going that much slower so you'd have longer to read, and react to, any road signs.
Generalbear
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 23:22) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 23:11) *
Are there any advance signs. Surely a street which is essentially a dead-end for a motorist should have some warning, not just the two signs at the start of the bus gate?

There are, the only route open to all traffic has a sign saying it's a no through road: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.902901,-1...33;8i6656?hl=en

The only other route is blocked by a bus gate: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.902727,-1...33;8i6656?hl=en

As it's a 20 zone, you'd be going that much slower so you'd have longer to read, and react to, any road signs.

It's worth nothing that is at least 2 years out of date on street view
Please see pics for current view

Also the first link is hangover buildings not Vincent's walk
The second is the other side of a pedestrian zone

Vincent's walk has no signs untill you are in the gate
cp8759
QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 23:26) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 23:22) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 23:11) *
Are there any advance signs. Surely a street which is essentially a dead-end for a motorist should have some warning, not just the two signs at the start of the bus gate?

There are, the only route open to all traffic has a sign saying it's a no through road: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.902901,-1...33;8i6656?hl=en

The only other route is blocked by a bus gate: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.902727,-1...33;8i6656?hl=en

As it's a 20 zone, you'd be going that much slower so you'd have longer to read, and react to, any road signs.

It's worth nothing that is at least 2 years out of date on street view
Please see pics for current view

Also the first link is hangover buildings not Vincent's walk
The second is the other side of a pedestrian zone

Vincent's walk has no signs untill you are in the gate

To get to Vincent's walk you have to pass a sign saying it's a no through route. I'm just saying I don't think an appeal based on the signage will work, but it's up to you whether you want to challenge on that basis. If you re-upload the PCN I'll check if there's any scope for a technical appeal.
Generalbear
PCN Full version


[/quote]
To get to Vincent's walk you have to pass a sign saying it's a no through route. I'm just saying I don't think an appeal based on the signage will work, but it's up to you whether you want to challenge on that basis. If you re-upload the PCN I'll check if there's any scope for a technical appeal.
[/quote]

That sign is long gone mate, the street view you are looking at is out of date

cp8759
The top of page 2 is out of focus / unreadable.
Generalbear
should now be readable


If youd care to look at this link this is how that exact piece of road looked up to the end of feb this year

https://host-students.com/starting-uni-make...pton-home-home/
cp8759
The PCN looks compliant, I'm sorry to say my advice is to pay the discounted penalty. Obviously whether you want to fight it based on the signage is up to you, but I fear that if you go down that route you'll just end up paying £60 instead of £30.
Generalbear
Thank you for your time, advice and opinion. it really is much appreciated
Mad Mick V
Here's the DfT approval for lines and signs:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4412.pdf

OP--have a good look at the schematic and make sure the signs are positioned correctly. If not then we may have an unenforceable Bus Gate.

Otherwise the discount looks attractive.

Mick
Generalbear
Mick
There is a sign missing from the schematic you provided above
cp8759
QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 09:22) *
Mick
There is a sign missing from the schematic you provided above

I think you're referring to the sign at s2, which is indeed missing. You could appeal on this basis, the problem you have is it is not a condition of the authorisation that the sign at s2 must be present in order for the signs at s1 to be authorised. So you're still left having to persuade the adjudicator that the signs did not provide adequate guidance. Personally I think this is unlikely to work, but at least if you decide to fight this anyway you now have something to argue.
Generalbear
Forgive my ignorance, but does this not mean that all terms laid out need to be met inorder for it to be leagal

"5. Directs, without predudice to any statutory provision to the like effect, that it is a condtion of it authorisation that the errection of the authorised plate and the placing of the autorised at or near the the said sites shall continue to have the effect only untill such a day ..."

the wording seems to imply to me that the for the conditions authorised in the TRO to in effect the signs need to be placed in accordance to the diagram, else it would not be in effect?
cp8759
QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 13:25) *
Forgive my ignorance, but does this not mean that all terms laid out need to be met inorder for it to be leagal

"5. Directs, without predudice to any statutory provision to the like effect, that it is a condtion of it authorisation that the errection of the authorised plate and the placing of the autorised at or near the the said sites shall continue to have the effect only untill such a day ..."

the wording seems to imply to me that the for the conditions authorised in the TRO to in effect the signs need to be placed in accordance to the diagram, else it would not be in effect?

No, that paragraph just means that the Secretary of State can, on one month's notice, revoke the authorisation.
Generalbear
But suely the acceptance of the TRO and its design is binding and if that design is not followed it is there fore not authorised
cp8759
QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 13:36) *
But suely the acceptance of the TRO and its design is binding and if that design is not followed it is there fore not authorised

The authorisation is just than, it authorises the authority to use those signs, it doesn't require them to.

The TRO is a different document that would have been drafted by the council, you can have a look on https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/ to see if you can find the right one or failing that you can ask the council to provide a copy. If you compare the restrictions created by the TRO to the restrictions conveyed by the signs and they don't match, you might have more solid grounds of appeal.
Generalbear
Is this what i am looking for?

file:///C:/Users/andyt/AppData/Local/Temp/TRO-Bus-Lanes-Bus-Only-Street-and-Bus-Gates-Order-2017-1.pdf
cp8759
QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 13:46) *
Is this what i am looking for?

file:///C:/Users/andyt/AppData/Local/Temp/TRO-Bus-Lanes-Bus-Only-Street-and-Bus-Gates-Order-2017-1.pdf

Assuming you mean https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-Order-2017.pdf then yes, that looks like the right one. The provision for Vincent's Walk is on page 9.
Generalbear
What does that show
cp8759
QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 14:30) *
What does that show

This:
Generalbear
Does mention signage or anything though
cp8759
QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 14:54) *
Does mention signage or anything though

They key question is, does the signage adequately convey the restrictions spelt out in the TRO. In my opinion it does and I would not advise appealing. Whether you want to challenge it is now up to you.
Mad Mick V
My view is that, if the Council map/schematic was submitted to the DfT, then that is the number of signs the Council undertook, as part of the approval, to provide.

The authorisation gives the Council the number of signs, scope on where these signs can be situated and confirms their relative position.

Now, can we say the missing sign is important? Does it act as the advanced warning sign to enable drivers to effect an early U-Turn?

If so, the signage is defective and the DfT authority for this set up is compromised.

Likewise the TRO is missing any reference to the Bus Lanes legislation of 2005. One might be in contravention of the TRO but is one in contravention of the enforcement legislation?

Mick
Generalbear
" ikewise the TRO is missing any reference to the Bus Lanes legislation of 2005. One might be in contravention of the TRO but is one in contravention of the enforcement legislation?"

In plain english please mick smile.gif

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