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Mazboy
On Tuesday 9th May i parked my car in the local Sainsburys car park. I look around and saw no payment machines or notices mentioning how long you were allowed to park so i assumed there was no limit. So i left my car there and went on with my daily tasks.

I returned to my car 5 hours later to find a parking ticket stuck to the window saying my 'vehicle ws parked longer than the maximum period allowed'. This was apparently only 2 hours.

So i had another look around and still could not find any signs stating that parking was only allowed for 2 hours.

The next day i drove to the same supermarket and on my way into the car park i noticed a Euro Car Parks sign that had been half blown over so that it was hardly visible. This is what states you can only park for 2 hours and this was the only sign i could find in the whole of the car park.

On the 15th May i wrote to Euro Car Parks appealing against their unfair ticket as there was no clearly visible sign stating the maximum allowed parking time.

I didn't hear anything back from them for a month so presumed it had been dropped (thought that they had to abide by the same rules as the Police, etc, that if they do not contact you within 2 weeks then they have to drop the case), but then over the weekend i received a reply from them dated 15th June saying that my appeal had been unsuccessful because 'the signage at this site is quite clear in its intent, and therefore this charge must stand'.

They are also now demanding payment within 7 days.

Anyone got any valuable advice on how i can avoid making this payment to this cheating company?
zamzara
Just ignore it. If possible, try to get evidence of the blown over sign and lack of other signs in case they are stupid enough to pursue it.
Mazboy
Just received another letter from them dated 21st July saying the following:-

We understand you are the registered keeper or hirer of the vehicle at the time of the following Parking Charge Notice was issued:-



PCN: A049****
Date Of Issue:- 09-05-06
Colour: Green
Make: Peugeot
VRM: FL*****
Contravention: Overstay
Car Park: Potters Bar - Sainsbury
Outstanding Amount: £50.00

You have failed to pay the notice within the time specified at the above car park.

As per the displayed terms and conditions, the above amount is payable immediately.

If payment is not received within 14 days of the date of this letter, this matter will be referred to a debt collection agency, which will incur further administration charge of £25.00 (payable for each notice).



What should i do? I have taken pictures that their signage is not viewable. I have also noted that the letter was addressed to the registered owner of the vehicle and not me. Any advice would be welcome!
andy_foster
QUOTE (zamzara @ Mon, 19 Jun 2006 - 12:06) *
Just ignore it. If possible, try to get evidence of the blown over sign and lack of other signs in case they are stupid enough to pursue it.
Teufel
have a look through barking mad's thread 'netto strore'

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=12728

and office wallys thread 'praking charge on private car park'

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=12589

these are both about private parking tickets based on alleged
contractual obligations

you should write a fomal notifaction that there was no contract
and no charge is enforceable and that further correspondence or visits
by them their agents or assignees will be considered harassment and nuisance
g_attrill
QUOTE (Mazboy @ Mon, 24 Jul 2006 - 10:43) *
QUOTE

We understand you are the registered keeper or hirer of the vehicle at the time of the following Parking Charge Notice was issued:-
...
You have failed to pay the notice within the time specified at the above car park.
...
As per the displayed terms and conditions, the above amount is payable immediately.


...
I have also noted that the letter was addressed to the registered owner of the vehicle and not me. Any advice would be welcome!


You can see where people question how these charges can be enforced...
Wayne Pendle
Yep, no such thing as a registered owner hehe
andy_foster
QUOTE (S.82(3) RTA 1991)
(3) In determining, for the purposes of this Part of this Act, who was the owner of a vehicle at any time, it shall be presumed that the owner was the person in whose name the vehicle was at that time registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.


It should be noted that -
(a) S.82(3) defines the "owner" not the "registered owner" - the latter of which does not exist, and
(b) S.82(3) only applies to Part II of the road traffic Act 1991, which (ignoring the Bill of Rights) has the force of law, not to Euro Car Parks' tickets which are an utter load of bollox.
Wayne Pendle
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 24 Jul 2006 - 14:56) *
QUOTE (S.82(3) RTA 1991)

(3) In determining, for the purposes of this Part of this Act, who was the owner of a vehicle at any time, it shall be presumed that the owner was the person in whose name the vehicle was at that time registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.


It should be noted that -
(a) S.82(3) defines the "owner" not the "registered owner" - the latter of which does not exist, and
(b) S.82(3) only applies to Part II of the road traffic Act 1991, which (ignoring the Bill of Rights) has the force of law, not to Euro Car Parks' tickets which are an utter load of bollox.



Hmm, I wonder where that leaves RTA 1988 (Retention and Disposal of Seized Motor Vehicles) Regulations 2005 bearing in mind it is only the registered keeper that is informed that they may be subject to penalties etc.
Mazboy
How does this sound as a response to their letter:



Thank you for your letter dated 21st July 2006.

This is now my second time of writing to instruct you that your notice is not valid as you do not have any viewable terms and conditions at the location in question (see attached photo) and therefore you charge is not enforceable.

Any further correspondence or visits by yourself or your agents will be considered harassment and a nuisance.

I trust this matter is now closed.




Let me know what you think please.
DW190
QUOTE (Mazboy @ Mon, 24 Jul 2006 - 18:11) *
How does this sound as a response to their letter:



Thank you for your letter dated 21st July 2006.

This is now my second time of writing to instruct you that your notice is not valid as you do not have any viewable terms and conditions at the location in question (see attached photo) and therefore you charge is not enforceable.

Any further correspondence or visits by yourself or your agents will be considered harassment and a nuisance.

I trust this matter is now closed.




Let me know what you think please.


Personally I would do nothing and when they
QUOTE
If payment is not received within 14 days of the date of this letter, this matter will be referred to a debt collection agency, which will incur further administration charge of £25.00 (payable for each notice).


You could ask them to provide you with a copy of the contract.
Mazboy
I replied to their letter dated 21st July including a picture of the dodgy signage and the registered owner has since received the following two letters:-



********

14th August

Dear sir/madam,

Client: Euro Car Parks Ltd
Account No: A.......
Reference No: 5.....
Ammiunt Due: £75.00

We have been instructed by our above named client and regret to note that you have failed to contact them with your proposals for settlement of this overdue account.

This account has been passed to ourselves with firm instructions to commence Litigation and obtain Judegement against you. Such a course of action may have an adverse affect on your ability to obtain credit and would include costs, court fees and interest which may disproportionately increase the amount outstanding.

To avoid this, please telephone the undersigned within (5) working days of the date of this letter or send your payment, by return, to the above address. Cheques or Postal Orders should be made payable to our above named client.

********



The registered owner then received this second letter:-



********

18th August

Dear sir/madam,

Client: Euro Car Parks Ltd
Account No: A.......
Reference No: 5.....
Ammiunt Due: £75.00

It is a Legal requirement to send notice of an intention tomake Civil Claim before that claim is issued. This letter fulfils that requirement and has been sent to you at the last address we hold for you.

This is your final chance to prevent Litigation being commenced against you: if you ignore this warning then proceedings may commence and Judegement will be sought. The cost relating to such litigation will be added to the amountclaimed, together with interest at a statutory rate of 8%.

If Judgement is obtained and an order for repayment in full is granted but remains unpaid, then enforcement of the Judgement against you may be sought by any or all of the following procedures:-
- Warrant of Execution by Bailiff or Sheriff against goods or assets owned by you either solely or with another(s).
- Application for an Attachment of Earnings upon your employer.
- Attendance in Court to be obtained Oally Examined as to your means and assets.
- Application for a charge upon Property, Insurance Policies and Pension Funds etc. which may be owned solely or with others.

********


HELP, what should i do, i am not the registered owner of the car but it was me that was driving the vehicile on this day. I am very concerned that the registered owner will be taken to court. any ideas?
Teufel
the reg owner should write asking what account as they have no knowledge of or dealings with eurocarparks
ask for full details of the allegation whcih has come out of the blue

tafter they reply then owner shoudl reply saying that they were not driving that day
and did not visit the carpark and thus did not and could not
have entereed into any purported contract
plus usual notice of harassment

a claim agaisnt owner will fail as they were not party to puprorted contract
(unless they can prove driver was agent)

if they ask who was driving owner should just say not telling you (no requirement to do so)

a claim against driver will fail - no contract, if contract then terms
not included, if included then unenforceable penalty charge
(see various threads on this)

this is harassment for a claim which has no basis in law
fboy2
Dominic is correct, they cannot pursue anyone other that the person they believe to have committed the breach of contract.

They clearly seem to be following the rules for DPE, of which the statute says that the registered keeper is ultimately responsible for parking penalties. By pusuing the registered keeper it seems that they are doing so in the full knowledge that they are communicating with another party than they had done initially (writing to both yourself and now the RK).

In this instance therefore there seems to me to be a clear deception, in so much they know they are now pursuing the RK, and that the RK was not the driver of the vehicle at the time, and as such threats to sue the RK are unlawful as the RK had nothing to do with it whatsoever. They seem to be clearly following the law for DPE which is nothing to do with private parking, hence the clear deception here.

If I was the RK I would also write stating this and tell them to stop harrassing me. I would tell them also that if they persist that you will contact the Police claiming attempting to obtain monies by deception, threats and harassment.

Tell the debt collectors where to go, I suppose a complaint against them to trading standards would not go amiss either.

If you write at the top of your letter 'without prejudice' and write these issues clearly as your view, belief, opinion etc, you say say pretty much what you like within reason.
Mazboy
Here's the pics i took of the only signs in the car park stating there is a 2 hour parking limit. As you can see it is not visible at all and will be ignored by most. This sign is at the entrance of the car park and no where else. Most people like myself will park the car and then look for a parking notice!






I was planning on sending them this reply:-


********

I write to you with regards to the unsolicited and unwanted correspondence that you have addressed to my person with an attempt to extract monies using what purports to be official documentation. This said correspondence has caused to my person much anguish, anxiety, fear, and personal distress and as such I insist that you do not continue to pursue a course of conduct that will lead to harassment.

Should you, at any time, send me any further correspondence, and that by so doing, you, your Company or representatives accept that further correspondence will once again cause me to suffer such anguish, anxiety, fear and personal distress; I will immediately pursue a claim of harassment against you.

********

Do you think i should also attach a copy of one of the images above and mention it or not?
Teufel
there is nothing to suggest that a breach of the conditions
(2hrs) will lead to a payment demand

thus unusual term not brought to notice and not in contract
(if there is a contract) key case shoe lane parking

in any case the dmages for breach are uneforceble penalties
not linked to loss (dunlop v new motor)
Mazboy
It seems there is some justice in the world. Just popped down to the Sainsburys in question (they have since rectified the parking sign at the entrance of the car park) and spoken to the Store Manager and even though she said there were 4 easily viewable signs (which i disagreed with) she has agreed to get Euro Car Parks to drop the case as she did not want to loose a valuable customer.

My advice to anyone else in similar circumstances is to speak to the store manager and hope they sympathise with your situation.

Thanks to everyone who offered their advice and guidance.
Dakota
I'll be very surprised if the store manager will be able to get Euro Car Parks to drop it. Ther business model depends on being able to extort money from Sainsbury's customers.
Teufel
i am surpriosed sainsburys are using these cowboys

since the PSIA cleared up clamping this is the new game
for dodgy cowboys

i think a lot of companies like sainsburys have jumped in
on it in haste and will soon realise their error and put proper procedures
in place which are legal and customer freindly

get everyine to complain to the store
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