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chawal2
hi experts,

i am in new trouble now. Driver got no penalty charge notice ever, because notice might have been sent to my old address. I do get letters from my old address but never got anything about this. Today purely by accident, i found the JACOBS enforcement notice from court at my old address. i could not defend as i was not aware of anything. it seems i had forgotten to change address on this car - i cannot remember as the alleged offence happened more than 2 years and 3 months ago. i not longer own this car but owned it on the date of the alleged offence.

now the charge of few tens of pounds have been excalated to £248.

deadline to pay on the letter is 23 june.

please can you advise if i can do anything about this event or do i have to just pay £248?

I do not even know if it is a genuine enforcement.

I wanted and tried to attach JACOBS enforcement notice but the photo is bigger than allowed size of the site.

please see the enforcement letter here:

https://imgur.com/a/N7ducNk

please help
stamfordman
Use an external pic site such as Imgur.

Usually bailiffs track you down to your current address.
chawal2
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 19:41) *
Use an external pic site such as Imgur.

Usually bailiffs track you down to your current address.


many thanks... i have now added image to this pic site.

https://imgur.com/a/N7ducNk

thanks.

i read on internet that i now need to send following letter to an address.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...-charge-parking

i am thinking of scanning the completed form and email to the authority in the form.

please can you advise if it is the next right thing to do?

many thanks...
stamfordman
No, that's not right. Wait for one of our debt recovery experts to advise.

Incandescent
We do see some very late bailiff actions that arise from PCNs that are not responded to by the vehicle owner, too many, frankly !

The first thing to realise is that the car you had then is totally irrelevant now, other than the fact that you were the registered keeper at the time the council asked DVLA for the keeper details by quoting the registration number. Once they have this, they don't ask again. For an unpaid or unappealed parking PCN you would expect to receive: -

- original PCN
- Notice to Owner
- Charge Certificate
- Order for Recovery
before bailiff action can commence.

If the PCN was for a traffic violation like going in a bus lane, the PCN is sent by post and no Notice to Owner is issued.

What the bailiffs are now doing is engaged in collecting money off you to pay the debt to Harrow, and also make themselves a few sovs too, to keep themselves in business. So they have a warrant that allows them to seize your goods to sell and pay off the debt, unless you pay the sum in cash. The only way to turn things around now is to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration or a Witness Statement, (for a parking PCN). Whilst this is being processed bailiff action is suspended, but the council can oppose this, so most tend to be rejected. However, you do have the option to have this refusal reviewed by a County Court judge - £100 for a papers review, and £255 for an interview with the judge "in chambers".

It is very clear from what you say that you had failed to update the address on your V5 so end up in his situation. As the sum is so little, (we see amounts in the many hundreds on here sometimes), it might be prudent to just pay it and put it down to experience and also remember to keep your V5s up-to-date in future. However see what the others say.
chawal2
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 22:39) *
We do see some very late bailiff actions that arise from PCNs that are not responded to by the vehicle owner, too many, frankly !

The first thing to realise is that the car you had then is totally irrelevant now, other than the fact that you were the registered keeper at the time the council asked DVLA for the keeper details by quoting the registration number. Once they have this, they don't ask again. For an unpaid or unappealed parking PCN you would expect to receive: -

- original PCN
- Notice to Owner
- Charge Certificate
- Order for Recovery
before bailiff action can commence.

If the PCN was for a traffic violation like going in a bus lane, the PCN is sent by post and no Notice to Owner is issued.

What the bailiffs are now doing is engaged in collecting money off you to pay the debt to Harrow, and also make themselves a few sovs too, to keep themselves in business. So they have a warrant that allows them to seize your goods to sell and pay off the debt, unless you pay the sum in cash. The only way to turn things around now is to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration or a Witness Statement, (for a parking PCN). Whilst this is being processed bailiff action is suspended, but the council can oppose this, so most tend to be rejected. However, you do have the option to have this refusal reviewed by a County Court judge - £100 for a papers review, and £255 for an interview with the judge "in chambers".

It is very clear from what you say that you had failed to update the address on your V5 so end up in his situation. As the sum is so little, (we see amounts in the many hundreds on here sometimes), it might be prudent to just pay it and put it down to experience and also remember to keep your V5s up-to-date in future. However see what the others say.



*what an informative, comprehensive, polite and helpful response 'Incandescent' . many thanks... *


latest status:

I have sent form TE9 (Witness Statement - Unpaid Penalty Charge (Parking)) to tec@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk ie County Court Business Centre

I also forwarded that form to JACOBS and gave them my new address too.
I believe that above is the Witness Statement you referred to in your message.

I hope no bailiff action will happen for now. i was given 23 june date in the notice of enforcement i attached in my post. i hope that date has no significance any more.

Am I right, even if my challenge is rejected, a new deadline will be given to me to pay or challenge??
Incandescent
QUOTE
Am I right, even if my challenge is rejected, a new deadline will be given to me to pay or challenge??


You are not making a challenge, what you are doing very late in the process, (almost the end, in fact) is seeking to have the enforcement process reverted to the Notice to Owner stage due to non-receipt of the statutory documents I outlined above. If you fail to get the process reverted, the bailiffs will once again be on your tail and will no doubt give an new date for payment, but the OOT is the final stage, and if not successful, you have to pay-up or they can seize goods to sell to get the money. Your car is the easiest to find unless you put it in a locked garage.
Neil B
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 13:23) *
latest status:

I have sent form TE9 (Witness Statement - Unpaid Penalty Charge (Parking)) to tec@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk ie County Court Business Centre

I hope no bailiff action will happen for now.

When you posted a link to that process earlier, you were told it was wrong.
The bailiff will not be suspended; the form will not be processed.

Show us exactly what you sent.
chawal2
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 13:45) *
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 13:23) *
latest status:

I have sent form TE9 (Witness Statement - Unpaid Penalty Charge (Parking)) to tec@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk ie County Court Business Centre

I hope no bailiff action will happen for now.

When you posted a link to that process earlier, you were told it was wrong.
The bailiff will not be suspended; the form will not be processed.

Show us exactly what you sent.



Thanks for your response Neil...

I sent the following form TE9 (Witness Statement - Unpaid Penalty Charge (Parking)) to tec@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk ie County Court Business Centre - as attached in this message.

QUOTE (chawal2 @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 14:06) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 13:45) *
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 13:23) *
latest status:

I have sent form TE9 (Witness Statement - Unpaid Penalty Charge (Parking)) to tec@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk ie County Court Business Centre

I hope no bailiff action will happen for now.

When you posted a link to that process earlier, you were told it was wrong.
The bailiff will not be suspended; the form will not be processed.

Show us exactly what you sent.



Thanks for your response Neil...

I sent the following form TE9 (Witness Statement - Unpaid Penalty Charge (Parking)) to tec@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk ie County Court Business Centre - as attached in this message.

i agree i was told that that form was wrong but later another volunteer suggested a witness form could be sent - and i think i sent that witness form only. i attached it now.

please advise if u think this is wrong.

i can pay as last resort, no problem. but i am just trying to get a chance to see what offence i am paying for - to learn lesson.
Neil B
That's a blank form?

What have you sent?
chawal2
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 14:26) *
That's a blank form?

What have you sent?

Neil

biggrin.gif

i sent a fully completed signed form. i thought you only wanted to check if i sent right form. i thought that after hiding all sensitive personal data, all i will be left with is this blank form for experts to see, then why not attach the blank form.

i am happy to attach completed form with sensitive information hidden - if it will be of interest.
Incandescent
As Neil B says, you have used the wrong form. Your situation means you have to submit an Out-of-Time Witness Statement, (or Statutory Declaration depending on what the original PCN was issued for). As I said earlier, you are almost at the end of the enforcement process, the final stage being payment or seizure of goods; not a good position to be in, frankly.
Neil B
Sort of: It's the right form but it's circa 2 years beyond the deadline for sending it.

So, as Incandescent says, you need to also submit an application to file it 'out of time', form TE7, which
must be completed very carefully.
Both forms have to be filed together.
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 14:37) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 14:26) *
That's a blank form?

What have you sent?

Neil

biggrin.gif

i sent a fully completed signed form. i thought you only wanted to check if i sent right form. i thought that after hiding all sensitive personal data, all i will be left with is this blank form for experts to see, then why not attach the blank form.

i am happy to attach completed form with sensitive information hidden - if it will be of interest.


Mate; I don't have time to mess about. If we ask for something it's because we need it. We don't have time to explain why
to everyone that asks for help. Neither do you have time with a bailiff on your back.

I only wanted to see how you had completed the one form so far.


AND
Have you established what the contravention was? That's crucial because, again as Incandescent said, you may
have the wrong form altogether. TE forms apply only to parking (in England).

Find out from the Council or TEC.
chawal2
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 19:34) *
Sort of: It's the right form but it's circa 2 years beyond the deadline for sending it.

So, as Incandescent says, you need to also submit an application to file it 'out of time', form TE7, which
must be completed very carefully.
Both forms have to be filed together.
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 14:37) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 14:26) *
That's a blank form?

What have you sent?

Neil

biggrin.gif

i sent a fully completed signed form. i thought you only wanted to check if i sent right form. i thought that after hiding all sensitive personal data, all i will be left with is this blank form for experts to see, then why not attach the blank form.

i am happy to attach completed form with sensitive information hidden - if it will be of interest.


Mate; I don't have time to mess about. If we ask for something it's because we need it. We don't have time to explain why
to everyone that asks for help. Neither do you have time with a bailiff on your back.

I only wanted to see how you had completed the one form so far.


AND
Have you established what the contravention was? That's crucial because, again as Incandescent said, you may
have the wrong form altogether. TE forms apply only to parking (in England).

Find out from the Council or TEC.



many many thanks... i will email TEC straightaway. I assume it is for parking. i do not know where to start with council.
Neil B
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 23:07) *
i will email TEC straightaway. I assume it is for parking. i do not know where to start with council.

No.
Phone them tomorrow 0300 123 1059

Be patient for pick up.
chawal2
thanks... i will phone them.
---------------------
also, is there a way i can sensitize harrow council as best as i can, so that they accept my form TE09 appeal and not reject. I can pay £248 but just want to try if i can make it the original PCN charge of around £60.
--------------------
I checked images of the PCN on harrow council website. The offence is that we stopped our car in a bus stop to drop a person. does this offence come under 'parking PCN' and hence qualify for form TE09? I did some research and see that form TE9 is for parking PCN. some details below:

https://www.gov.uk/appeal-against-a-penalty...ice/court-order

How to challenge

The form you use to challenge an order of recovery depends on whether it relates to:

a parking PCN - use form TE9
a Dart Charge PCN - use form TE9 Dart Charge
a low emission zone PCN - use form PE3 vehicle emissions
any other PCN, for example for driving in a bus lane - use form PE3

any thoughts anyone?

thanks...
nosferatu1001
You need to find out what it is for first, otherwise it will be difficult to know if you have any leverage
For example, if a postal charge was sent through to your old address, and returned, and the council KNEW This, then they should notoppose. So you want a FULL LIST of all the activity relaitng to this PCN.

Not a parking charge I dont beliebve

Also, worst place to drop someone off. DYLs you can drop off, so do it there instead of a bus lane
Neil B
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 10:20) *
thanks... i will phone them.
---------------------
also, is there a way i can sensitize harrow council as best as i can, so that they accept my form TE09 appeal and not reject. I can pay £248 but just want to try if i can make it the original PCN charge of around £60.
--------------------
I checked images of the PCN on harrow council website. The offence is that we stopped our car in a bus stop to drop a person. does this offence come under 'parking PCN' and hence qualify for form TE09? I did some research and see that form TE9 is for parking PCN. some details below:

https://www.gov.uk/appeal-against-a-penalty...ice/court-order

How to challenge

The form you use to challenge an order of recovery depends on whether it relates to:

a parking PCN - use form TE9
a Dart Charge PCN - use form TE9 Dart Charge
a low emission zone PCN - use form PE3 vehicle emissions
any other PCN, for example for driving in a bus lane - use form PE3

any thoughts anyone?

thanks...

It's parking but TEC will give you the right forms anyway.
But again you seem to have not listened: Both myself and Incandescent have explained you also need TE7.

and nosferatu makes a good point on finding out what you can from Harrow.
chawal2
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 11:41) *
You need to find out what it is for first, otherwise it will be difficult to know if you have any leverage
For example, if a postal charge was sent through to your old address, and returned, and the council KNEW This, then they should notoppose. So you want a FULL LIST of all the activity relaitng to this PCN.

Not a parking charge I dont beliebve

Also, worst place to drop someone off. DYLs you can drop off, so do it there instead of a bus lane



many thanks for helping on this one too Nosferatu1001...

Update:

1. i phoned TEC. on phone the staff said that forms are right for my PCN. not sure if his advice is correct.
2. where can i get the FULL LIST of activities relating to PCN. harrow council only showed images on website.
3. in hillingdon council or anywhere else in UK i did not ever get fined for bus lane drop off etc. harrow council seems to be generating money by installing cameras on bus lanes. I will steer clear of bus lanes now. thanks...
chawal2
*another new problem discovered*

i just now noticed the following under details of PCN under discussion - on harrow council website - when i tried to see details of PCN i am currently discussing here.

i just now noticed that there is another PCN outstanding for us to pay for same old car and this second PCN was issued for 1 august 2016 - same bus lane dropping off offense. it is obvious that all corrspondence went to old address so we do not know anything about it.

so before we could know and learn from and avoid making our mistake, two big penalties.

what can i do about this penalty? this penalty too has risen to £175 so i think court case is complete without our knowledge. should i wait for bailiffs to contact me and then act like i am acting for this one, or what should i do please? any advice? i can start new thread if appropriate.

i think if i write to TEC now with PNC number then i may be able to avoid paying bailiffs fee.
Neil B
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 12:27) *
i think if i write????! to TEC now with PNC number then i may be able to avoid paying bailiffs fee.[/u]

Yes quite possibly but 'write'?
Also, it can't be £175. ? (165 or 173)
ford poplar
Also poss expect a Penalty from DVLA for not updating your V5c.
chawal2
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 12:35) *
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 12:27) *
i think if i write????! to TEC now with PNC number then i may be able to avoid paying bailiffs fee.[/u]

Yes quite possibly but 'write'?
Also, it can't be £175. ? (165 or 173)


u r right... £173.

i will email TEC.

thank you
Neil B
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 13:04) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 12:35) *
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 12:27) *
i think if i write????! to TEC now with PNC number then i may be able to avoid paying bailiffs fee.[/u]

Yes quite possibly but 'write'?
Also, it can't be £175. ? (165 or 173)


u r right... £173.

i will email TEC.

thank you

What?
What if it is not too late and the deadline is today?!

Have you heard of Alexander Graham Bell?
chawal2
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 13:26) *
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 13:04) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 12:35) *
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 12:27) *
i think if i write????! to TEC now with PNC number then i may be able to avoid paying bailiffs fee.[/u]

Yes quite possibly but 'write'?
Also, it can't be £175. ? (165 or 173)


u r right... £173.

i will email TEC.

thank you

What?
What if it is not too late and the deadline is today?!

Have you heard of Alexander Graham Bell?


i do not want to pay £173 if i can manage to reduce it to original charge. for that i need to send off TE7 and TE9. am i missing something here?
a bit rude comment about inventor of telephone... sleep.gif
Neil B
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 14:00) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 13:26) *
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 13:04) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 12:35) *
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 12:27) *
i think if i write????! to TEC now with PNC number then i may be able to avoid paying bailiffs fee.[/u]

Yes quite possibly but 'write'?
Also, it can't be £175. ? (165 or 173)


u r right... £173.

i will email TEC.

thank you

What?
What if it is not too late and the deadline is today?!

Have you heard of Alexander Graham Bell?


i do not want to pay £173 if i can manage to reduce it to original charge. for that i need to send off TE7 and TE9. am i missing something here?
a bit rude comment about inventor of telephone... sleep.gif

So, rather than argue with my constructive (albeit a bit sarcastic) comments, what have you done and what is the result?
chawal2

So, rather than argue with my constructive (albeit a bit sarcastic) comments, what have you done and what is the result?
[/quote]

current status:

1. i have emailed harrow enforcement - explaining them situation and asking status of this PCN and telling them to reduce amount to original as i have 3 PCNs issued to me for similar type of mistake. before i could learn from mistake and stop doing it, i got 3 PCNs.
2. i have to wait for driver to fill and sign TE7 and TE9 forms - can be done tonight. then i will email TEC.
3. i thought of paying the PCN online but then realised i will not get refund in any case so no point paying now.
4. i also challenged the latest PCN online on harrow website - explaining all details.

any suggestions will be welcome.
Neil B
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 14:41) *
2. i have to wait for driver to fill and sign TE7 and TE9 forms - can be done tonight. then i will email TEC.

Firstly, what has the driver got to do with it? The owner is liable.

Secondly, you were supposed to phone TEC to ask about the second PCN at £173. That amount means the debt has been registered
but bailiffs might not have been engaged. You need to ask TEC if you are 'in time' to file just TE9.
chawal2
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 23:00) *
QUOTE (chawal2 @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 14:41) *
2. i have to wait for driver to fill and sign TE7 and TE9 forms - can be done tonight. then i will email TEC.

Firstly, what has the driver got to do with it? The owner is liable.

Secondly, you were supposed to phone TEC to ask about the second PCN at £173. That amount means the debt has been registered
but bailiffs might not have been engaged. You need to ask TEC if you are 'in time' to file just TE9.

ok many thanks... i will do it now.

owner is driver in all these cases... sleep.gif
chawal2
so the latest update is that i phoned TEC: the first PCN now is on hold and council will respond in 8 weeks.
the second PCN is also out of time so i have submitted te9 and te7.

many thanks Neil for your help.
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