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stamfordman
It is believable that something like this could push someone over the edge but it cannot be taken in isolation.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/may/...e-jerome-rogers

Courier Jerome Rogers killed himself after his bike was seized. A BBC drama tells his story and examines wider issues about debt

It started with two £65 traffic fines, one for being in a bus lane a few minutes before the restrictions ended, the other for making a prohibited right turn. Within a matter of months, those two penalties had spiralled into a debt of more than £1,000 – and then the bailiffs swooped, clamping the motorbike that was essential to Jerome Rogers’ work as a courier delivering blood and other medical items to hospitals.

It ended with the 20-year-old taking his own life.

The case prompted calls for tougher regulation of the debt-collection industry, and is now the basis of a one-hour factual drama for BBC Three available from Tuesday (29 May) on BBC iPlayer.
southpaw82
Tougher regulation? If the debt was lawfully owed and not paid what else is meant to happen?
The Rookie
I’m not sure what tougher regulation is needed here, he chose not to pay the penalties, he chose not to pay once enforcement started, do we just let everyone off in case they decide (1 in 100,000 at most) to do something drastic? Or do we decide the guilty should be punished?

The fees were allowed to escalate, no HE escalated them by inserting head in sand.

As for tools of the trade? Essential for work applies to most people, so?
DancingDad
According to National Statistics, males in age range 20-24 have a suicide rate of 14.8/100K of population.
Seems a little extreme to focus on one of them, the purported cause of which would seem to be self inflicted.
stamfordman
Here's an earlier article.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/...all-for-reforms

I think there is a good point that the debt collection industry rarely stops to assess the vulnerability of its targets. At the end of the day we're talking about a couple of PCNs. There are parallels with the increase in suicides and distress owing to government welfare 'reforms'.
ViroBono
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 12:03) *
Here's an earlier article.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/...all-for-reforms

I think there is a good point that the debt collection industry rarely stops to assess the vulnerability of its targets. At the end of the day we're talking about a couple of PCNs. There are parallels with the increase in suicides and distress owing to government welfare 'reforms'.


The debt collection industry, despite significantly increased regulation, remains an unsavoury business. Amongst the causes of continued poor behaviour are a reliance on commission-based pay amongst debt collectors, and the way debts are bought and sold.

Although there has been a small increase in the number of suicides since 2007, the figures are still lower than they were in the 80s. There is a link between socio-economic disadvantage and suicidal behaviours, which includes austerity, but it’s about a good deal more than that. Debt is a significant risk factor for suicidal behaviour across society, but there are many others.

In this case the Coroner seems to have found, as fact, that the debt was one of “several stressors” involved. She suggested that although the bailiff acted within the law, some of his behaviour could have been perceived as intimidating.

In my view there is a valid case to look at whether there’s a need for bailiffs in this age other than in recovering money from businesses. Northern Ireland has managed perfectly well without them for years.
The Rookie
The trouble is if you provide an easy out solution then no-one will ever pay and you are back to square one.

NI may not have bailiffs but they do have the equivalent in the EJO, so rather disingenuous to state it as some sort of solution.
southpaw82
QUOTE (ViroBono @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 12:45) *
In my view there is a valid case to look at whether there’s a need for bailiffs in this age other than in recovering money from businesses. Northern Ireland has managed perfectly well without them for years.

How are debts collected from individuals in NI?
ViroBono
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 18:49) *
QUOTE (ViroBono @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 12:45) *
In my view there is a valid case to look at whether there’s a need for bailiffs in this age other than in recovering money from businesses. Northern Ireland has managed perfectly well without them for years.

How are debts collected from individuals in NI?


By the Enforcement of Judgments Office. EJO staff have powers broadly similar to bailiffs, but are salaried government employees. They operate differently in that they ask debtors to meet at their offices, and have a range of powers, rather than turning up and threatening to remove possessions from the outset. Ultimately, not complying with the EJO can result in arrest though, so though they speak softly they do have a big stick!

In practice I’ve seen them in action when I lived in NI, and I think that they are sufficiently different to bailiffs to be a better, more civilised, method of enforcement.

southpaw82
QUOTE (ViroBono @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 19:58) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 18:49) *
QUOTE (ViroBono @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 12:45) *
In my view there is a valid case to look at whether there’s a need for bailiffs in this age other than in recovering money from businesses. Northern Ireland has managed perfectly well without them for years.

How are debts collected from individuals in NI?


By the Enforcement of Judgments Office. EJO staff have powers broadly similar to bailiffs, but are salaried government employees. They operate differently in that they ask debtors to meet at their offices, and have a range of powers, rather than turning up and threatening to remove possessions from the outset. Ultimately, not complying with the EJO can result in arrest though, so though they speak softly they do have a big stick!

In practice I’ve seen them in action when I lived in NI, and I think that they are sufficiently different to bailiffs to be a better, more civilised, method of enforcement.

Very similar to the system I’m used to. I agree it ought to be administered by agents of the state, rather than private individuals loosely licensed by the state.
cp8759
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 26 May 2018 - 14:58) *
The case prompted calls for tougher regulation of the debt-collection industry, and is now the basis of a one-hour factual drama for BBC Three available from Tuesday (29 May) on BBC iPlayer.

Tragic as this case may be, and as sorry as I may feel for the family, having watched the drama I cannot say that this was anything other than self-inflicted. The BBC drama gave the distinct impression that if he'd simply paid within the discount window, there never would have been a problem.
roythebus
I suspect that in the UK if debt collection were to be administered by the state it would ssson be privatised under the current regime. After all, they've privatised everything else.

But then maybe the UK is way over the top on issuing fines for every misdemeanour? Parking? Fine. Go in a bus lane? Fine. Drop a dog end? Fine. It seems to be a national fetish to fine everybody for everything. Overstay in a supermarket car park? Fine (by another name). Late filing your tax return? fine.

A lot of people, myself included, find it difficult to deal with this sort of officialdom. It is the constant worrying of "oh will I get a fine if I stop here for a minute to drop somebody off", "will I get a fine if i overstay in the car park a few minutes". I travel a lot cross Europe and nowhere else seems to have this obsession with fining people and chasing them to the ends of the earth for payment.

The only time I've been finied abroad was for speeding in a German town, a fair cop by the police with a speed gun, a 40km limit, I was doing 50km. That will be normally 160euro, if you pay us now by card it is 35 euro. No bullying, here's the 35euro, no more worries. It may be the "camera culture" here of fining everyone by remote control that causes it. Getting caught by a person seems to have a different ring about it.

I hate to think how much this country stings people in fines in the course of a year, it must be enough to finance the NHS for a long time. Where does the fine money go to?
ViroBono
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 01:11) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 26 May 2018 - 14:58) *
The case prompted calls for tougher regulation of the debt-collection industry, and is now the basis of a one-hour factual drama for BBC Three available from Tuesday (29 May) on BBC iPlayer.

Tragic as this case may be, and as sorry as I may feel for the family, having watched the drama I cannot say that this was anything other than self-inflicted. The BBC drama gave the distinct impression that if he'd simply paid within the discount window, there never would have been a problem.



Perhaps the reality was not quite dramatic enough for the BBC?
cp8759
QUOTE (roythebus @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 09:35) *
But then maybe the UK is way over the top on issuing fines for every misdemeanour? Parking? Fine. Go in a bus lane? Fine. Drop a dog end? Fine. It seems to be a national fetish to fine everybody for everything. Overstay in a supermarket car park? Fine (by another name). Late filing your tax return? fine.

By not littering, not parking illegally, and only driving in bus lanes outside of their hours of operation, I seem to manage avoiding all these fines. On the other hand, the verge between my house and my post office is constantly covered in (mostly recyclable) litter. If the council were to install cameras and start issuing littering PCNs I'd be all for it.

QUOTE (roythebus @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 09:35) *
A lot of people, myself included, find it difficult to deal with this sort of officialdom. It is the constant worrying of "oh will I get a fine if I stop here for a minute to drop somebody off", "will I get a fine if i overstay in the car park a few minutes".

The Highway Code has a reasonably accurate explanation of the boarding / alighting exemptions, and you can overstay in a car park by 10 minutes. You might find that knowing the rules means you have nothing to worry about at all.
The Rookie
Having listened to an interview with the producer on radio5 on Sunday, this seems more an issue that the man concerned was in the ‘gig economy’ and on a pittance and hence unable to afford the PCN’s than it was an issue with the PCN and recovery itself.

On BBC iPlayer as “killed by my debt”
cp8759
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 16:35) *
Having listened to an interview with the producer on radio5 on Sunday, this seems more an issue that the man concerned was in the ‘gig economy’ and on a pittance and hence unable to afford the PCN’s than it was an issue with the PCN and recovery itself.

From the figures given in the show, while I accept it would have been a struggle, he could have paid the discounted penalties even on the pittance he was earning.
Incandescent
Pity this poor chap didn't know about our Decrim. penalties forum. I'm sure he'd have got some good advice and maybe even managed seccessful appeal too ! It would seem he had nobody else to turn to for advice.
cp8759
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 17:25) *
Pity this poor chap didn't know about our Decrim. penalties forum. I'm sure he'd have got some good advice and maybe even managed seccessful appeal too ! It would seem he had nobody else to turn to for advice.

It's never going to happen but imagine if we persuaded Parliament to make a reference to this forum a mandatory requirement on all PCNs...
666
QUOTE (roythebus @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 09:35) *
I hate to think how much this country stings people in fines in the course of a year, it must be enough to finance the NHS for a long time. Where does the fine money go to?


Most of it goes to the Treasury, but it wouldn't finance the NHS for a day.

The annual income from fines etc., is about £1 billion, with a surplus after costs, of about £50 million https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go..._WEB_140717.pdf

NHS budget in 2017-8 was £124.7 billion.
ViroBono
QUOTE (roythebus @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 09:35) *
The only time I've been finied abroad was for speeding in a German town, a fair cop by the police with a speed gun, a 40km limit, I was doing 50km. That will be normally 160euro, if you pay us now by card it is 35 euro. No bullying, here's the 35euro, no more worries. It may be the "camera culture" here of fining everyone by remote control that causes it. Getting caught by a person seems to have a different ring about it.


I lived in Germany, and have been fined for speeding there too, by a very polite policeman. I was also fined for parking with my car's bumper 4cm over a line, though it was cancelled on appeal.

In Germany every supermarket car park has a sign stating that the traffic laws apply there, so you can be fined (not by a PPC) if you breach them. You can also be fined for washing your car other than at an approved 'Waschplatz'; for hanging out your washing, or mowing the lawn, or doing DIY, on a Sunday; for putting the wrong things in your bin; for running out of fuel on the Autobahn; for not indicating before turning, for not having an in-date first aid kit in your car, for not carrying out first aid at an accident; for not paying church tax, for not giving way to an emergency vehicle, and many, many other things.

I liked living there, and did not find the laws onerous at all; they are generally entirely sensible, and based upon consideration for others. Germans will happily dob you in if you break the rules - they don't need cameras!




The Rookie
QUOTE (666 @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 19:43) *
QUOTE (roythebus @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 09:35) *
I hate to think how much this country stings people in fines in the course of a year, it must be enough to finance the NHS for a long time. Where does the fine money go to?


Most of it goes to the Treasury, but it wouldn't finance the NHS for a day.


Penalties (PCN), as in this case, go to the council, not the treasury. Court fines and Police fixed penalties go to the Treasury.
ford poplar
Just watched it on Catch up TV.

IMO a poorly informed young 'ostrich' that did not seek help from family and spent too much time watching 'losers' on reddit etc contemplating suicide as a answer for their problems. Debt can be a downward spiral, unless you break free.
If you want to blame anything blame the self-employed, zero hours, gig economy.
What hope would a Creditor have, without recourse to the Courts and Bailiff enforcement?
Incandescent
Read about it on the BBC website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/How_debt_kills

For those self righteous people who post on here, maybe they'd like to tell us how this young chap could have possible paid even the initial penalties never mind the £1000. The councils are Shylocks and accept no staged payments at all they just want their pound of flesh, or in this case about a hundredweight. True wickedness is found in councils
The Rookie
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 31 May 2018 - 09:26) *
The councils are Shylocks and accept no staged payments at all

Perhaps explain how the regulations would allow them to collect staged payments? AIUI there is no concept of it in the regs, so if someone reneged on a staged payments deal the council would have great difficulty enforcing at all?
cp8759
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 31 May 2018 - 09:26) *
Read about it on the BBC website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/How_debt_kills

For those self righteous people who post on here, maybe they'd like to tell us how this young chap could have possible paid even the initial penalties never mind the £1000. The councils are Shylocks and accept no staged payments at all they just want their pound of flesh, or in this case about a hundredweight. True wickedness is found in councils

For starters he could have asked the council to exercise discretion to cancel, it probably would have been refused but they would have extended the discount window. Secondly, he should have prioritised paying the PCNs over all other expenditure, including the bike repayments (Mum's boyfriend would have understood). Thirdly, if he'd gone to the tribunal, even if he'd eventually lost, he would have had the better part of half a year to save up the money. For two PCNs totalling £260 that's £10 a week for 26 weeks, and that's assuming he couldn't get at least one of the PCNs cancelled or withdrawn along the way.

The real issue is, he could have done a number of things, but chose to do nothing, which resulted in the debt escalating to unsustainable levels.
Incandescent
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 31 May 2018 - 10:04) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 31 May 2018 - 09:26) *
Read about it on the BBC website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/How_debt_kills

For those self righteous people who post on here, maybe they'd like to tell us how this young chap could have possible paid even the initial penalties never mind the £1000. The councils are Shylocks and accept no staged payments at all they just want their pound of flesh, or in this case about a hundredweight. True wickedness is found in councils

For starters he could have asked the council to exercise discretion to cancel, it probably would have been refused but they would have extended the discount window. Secondly, he should have prioritised paying the PCNs over all other expenditure, including the bike repayments (Mum's boyfriend would have understood). Thirdly, if he'd gone to the tribunal, even if he'd eventually lost, he would have had the better part of half a year to save up the money. For two PCNs totalling £260 that's £10 a week for 26 weeks, and that's assuming he couldn't get at least one of the PCNs cancelled or withdrawn along the way.

The real issue is, he could have done a number of things, but chose to do nothing, which resulted in the debt escalating to unsustainable levels.

Indeed, that is the point !

The system takes no account of circumstances unlike the criminal law. When I was 20 I was pretty naive and ignorant, but as I aged I got wiser. What is needed is an intermediate stage of the process that comes in when a PCN and subsequent documents have been ignored, (no payment or appeal). This would involve a visit by the enforcing body to the address of the PCN recipient. From this a report would be produced of the circumstances of the registered keeper and inform subsequent action. Part of this might be to recognise ability to pay and a possible offer of staged payments. Obviously where a PCN reipient was cynically trying to "get away scot-free", then the report would be able to recommend registering the debt. Nowhere is it recognised that people do not live bureaucratically tidy lives and not all are able to judge what consequences there might be. The introduction of a pre-debt registration meeting could go a long way to reducing the use of bailiffs, and also get the money in, albeit at a staged rate.
cp8759
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 31 May 2018 - 18:03) *
The system takes no account of circumstances unlike the criminal law. When I was 20 I was pretty naive and ignorant, but as I aged I got wiser. What is needed is an intermediate stage of the process that comes in when a PCN and subsequent documents have been ignored, (no payment or appeal). This would involve a visit by the enforcing body to the address of the PCN recipient. From this a report would be produced of the circumstances of the registered keeper and inform subsequent action. Part of this might be to recognise ability to pay and a possible offer of staged payments. Obviously where a PCN reipient was cynically trying to "get away scot-free", then the report would be able to recommend registering the debt. Nowhere is it recognised that people do not live bureaucratically tidy lives and not all are able to judge what consequences there might be. The introduction of a pre-debt registration meeting could go a long way to reducing the use of bailiffs, and also get the money in, albeit at a staged rate.

The costs involved would be very high, councils are stretch already and this could be financed only by increasing the cost of PCNs enough to ensure the measure remained cost-neutral for councils. Sad as any death might be, a single case does not warrant such a radical policy overhaul.
glasgow_bhoy
I don't really believe that a debt of £1000 caused him to take his own life to be honest. I'm sure it may have been a contributing factor if the debt felt like a burdon, but I believe there may have been other influences, whether they be mental health, relation/friendships or otherwise. I'm sympathetic to him and his relatives but ultimately, the system isn't to blame.

If he had taken his own life over £1,000 of credit card debt, would everyone be blaming Visa?

Most of us have debts, generally into 6 figures for mortgages and 4 figures for cars. Most people just get on with it.

I also don't think this country is too bad for fines. I was in Berlin less than 2 hours a month ago and managed to pick up a fine for not validating my train ticket (I did try but in my rush for the train the machine didn't stamp it). And in Venice I've seen signs threatening fines for simply sitting down in St Mark's Square. Both worse than most things we see in the UK tbh.
Fredd
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Thu, 31 May 2018 - 20:25) *
I also don't think this country is too bad for fines. I was in Berlin less than 2 hours a month ago and managed to pick up a fine for not validating my train ticket (I did try but in my rush for the train the machine didn't stamp it). And in Venice I've seen signs threatening fines for simply sitting down in St Mark's Square. Both worse than most things we see in the UK tbh.

Try walking around without a shirt in Marbella, or committing some other undefined fashion faux pas - €750.





TBH, I quite like that one. smile.gif Just a shame that they don't see the crass displays of wealth in Puerto Banus in a similarly dim light.
Incandescent
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 31 May 2018 - 18:28) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 31 May 2018 - 18:03) *
The system takes no account of circumstances unlike the criminal law. When I was 20 I was pretty naive and ignorant, but as I aged I got wiser. What is needed is an intermediate stage of the process that comes in when a PCN and subsequent documents have been ignored, (no payment or appeal). This would involve a visit by the enforcing body to the address of the PCN recipient. From this a report would be produced of the circumstances of the registered keeper and inform subsequent action. Part of this might be to recognise ability to pay and a possible offer of staged payments. Obviously where a PCN reipient was cynically trying to "get away scot-free", then the report would be able to recommend registering the debt. Nowhere is it recognised that people do not live bureaucratically tidy lives and not all are able to judge what consequences there might be. The introduction of a pre-debt registration meeting could go a long way to reducing the use of bailiffs, and also get the money in, albeit at a staged rate.

The costs involved would be very high, councils are stretch already and this could be financed only by increasing the cost of PCNs enough to ensure the measure remained cost-neutral for councils. Sad as any death might be, a single case does not warrant such a radical policy overhaul.

Councils are stretched on the finances of their parking and traffic enforcement departments ??? Are you kidding ? They are making shedloads of money and the London councils in particular are generating huge surpluses, so there is no case at all of claiming unaffordability bearing in mind cases of no response to PCN and subsequent documents are not a large percentage.
A radical policy overhaul is needed, nay, urgently needed
cp8759
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 31 May 2018 - 20:55) *
Councils are stretched on the finances of their parking and traffic enforcement departments ??? Are you kidding ?

No I'm not kidding. For example South Gloucestershire subcontracted enforcement to APCOA because their in-house enforcement was losing them over 100k a year. London councils might do very well out of it, but that is not universally the case.
DancingDad
QUOTE
When I was 20 I was pretty naive and ignorant, but as I aged I got wiser.


As were and did many.
But the law says you are an adult at 18.
Totally responsible for your actions.

Unfortunately, many parents and schools seem to fail to teach kids that they are responsible, that actions (or inactions) have consequences.
That oversight can steamroller a young adult and has overwhelmed many older ones.
It is a shock to find out that you and you alone have to sort out the mess you are in.

Struck me as strange that his family could stump up 500 notes to initially get rid of bailiffs but couldn't/didn't/wouldn't help him out with the PCNs.
cp8759
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 31 May 2018 - 23:28) *
Struck me as strange that his family could stump up 500 notes to initially get rid of bailiffs but couldn't/didn't/wouldn't help him out with the PCNs.

I think the issue was that he never told anyone about the PCNs, it's obvious that if he'd told mum/mum's boyfriend about the PCNs when they first arrived, they would have helped him out, he just never told them.

I'm also inclined to agree that £1,000 in debt is not the only reason he took his own life, there must have been other factors at play. I've heard of people taking their own lives over debts of 6-7 figures or more, but not for £1,000. I might well be labelled as a horrible human being for saying this, but I fear that if it hadn't happened over the £1,000 PCN debts, it would have probably happened at a later date over something else.
Incandescent
I still think change is needed to stop the immediate rush to instruct bailiffs. Certainly an option to pay in stages for a PCN debt over £100 based on proof of income. London PCNs are now £180, although I'm not sure what PCNs this new sum covers. Also councils to be made to be proactive when a PCN and subsequent documents is seemingly ignored. A report to council (the politicians), before bailiff action is taken must be made mandatory.

OK, this won't solve all the problems like this but a bit more grit in the system is needed to stop bailiff action being the first resort.
ford poplar
Bailiffs are not the first resort, the debtor would have received several Stat Notices from the Council & poss Court papers.
He panicked after 1 PCN but still went Clubbing with his mates. 18 should be the age of Responsablity.
Ocelot
£1000 does seem a bit steep for a couple of trivial offences, although obviously it wouldn't have been anywhere near that if he hadn't ignored them.
The Rookie
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-...-bailiffs-fees/
Looks like they were charging the full whack per PCN, whether that is correct or not I don’t know, but that soon gets to £1k.
whjohnson
Here's a novel idea, how about striking out some of these stupid inane laws altogther? After all, many of the current restrictions imposed by LAs are specific 'honey-traps'. Certain road jucntions in London for instace, cannot be used wihout contraveneing certain restrictions, simply because of the routing and traffic flow, not that the LAs mind, because their caneras 'fine' everyone who enters ans leaves.

Trivia like bus lanes, no waiting etc. If these laws truly worked in the deterrent sense, then no one would break them, thus no revenue from the esuing fines would be forthcoming, which begs the question why they were enacted in the 1st place.
Some cynic may well be led to belive that these instruments were enacted to solely to raise revenue..............?
ford poplar
Most restrictions are designed to keep traffic flowing and should be enforced by lawful means.
This Forum often highlights Authorities and unscroupulous restrictions.
cp8759
QUOTE (whjohnson @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 20:15) *
Trivia like bus lanes, no waiting etc. If these laws truly worked in the deterrent sense, then no one would break them, thus no revenue from the esuing fines would be forthcoming, which begs the question why they were enacted in the 1st place.
Some cynic may well be led to belive that these instruments were enacted to solely to raise revenue..............?

Without enforcement everybody would drive in the bus lanes, park wherever they wanted etc...
jdh
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 11:39) *
QUOTE (whjohnson @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 20:15) *
Trivia like bus lanes, no waiting etc. If these laws truly worked in the deterrent sense, then no one would break them, thus no revenue from the esuing fines would be forthcoming, which begs the question why they were enacted in the 1st place.
Some cynic may well be led to belive that these instruments were enacted to solely to raise revenue..............?

Without enforcement everybody would drive in the bus lanes, park wherever they wanted etc...
Interesting question and it's largely down to individual's risk/reward ratio and levels. Many exceed a speed limit where they don't think they'll get caught but would never jump a red light. Somewhere like London you'd be daft to chance yellow lines but other places they do it with impunity as they know there's never any enforcement.
DancingDad
QUOTE (jdh @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 13:25) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 11:39) *
QUOTE (whjohnson @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 20:15) *
Trivia like bus lanes, no waiting etc. If these laws truly worked in the deterrent sense, then no one would break them, thus no revenue from the esuing fines would be forthcoming, which begs the question why they were enacted in the 1st place.
Some cynic may well be led to belive that these instruments were enacted to solely to raise revenue..............?

Without enforcement everybody would drive in the bus lanes, park wherever they wanted etc...
Interesting question and it's largely down to individual's risk/reward ratio and levels. Many exceed a speed limit where they don't think they'll get caught but would never jump a red light. Somewhere like London you'd be daft to chance yellow lines but other places they do it with impunity as they know there's never any enforcement.



Aberystwyth is a good example of what will happen.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/roa...ic-wardens.html
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