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Full Version: 38L Contravention: Lionel Rd, Ealing - worth contesting?
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advicewelcome
Received the below PCN (sighhhh)...

Not the only one who has received one recently.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t111803.html

Appears Council stuck a camera there to net the driver little fishies.

Seems the driver scooted around the other side of the road, as was very tight and late at night with no traffic.

Road island is here:
51.49758, -0.29847

Road island looks equal from both sides, but coming to the junction from the direction of the car, very tight:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4972418,-...3312!8i6656

Camera location seems here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4974896,-...3312!8i6656


Do I have a chance?

I guess it depends on the video - but if I wait for that do I loose the lower payment amount?

Certainly welcome any guidance or strategy.

Thanks in advance.






stamfordman
It isn't a junction, just a road island.

What do you think the video would show?

Can't see anything here - maybe others will see a fault in the PCN but it looks the same as other cases.
advicewelcome
..thanks updated it to "Road island". Welcome any thoughts on approach - if I can pay lower amount and then appeal? How to get vid evidence or if its even worth contesting.
peterguk
QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 10:31) *
..thanks updated it to "Road island". Welcome any thoughts on approach - if I can pay lower amount and then appeal? How to get vid evidence or if its even worth contesting.


If the driver knows they went the wrong side of the island, then that's what the video will show. Can't think of a reason to appeal. Maybe someone else will think of somerhing. Lucky a cop wasn't following you!
StuartBu
Looks like a normal centre road traffic island . I don't see why you ( OP) describe it as " tight" . Appears to be plenty room to get through.
Mad Mick V
My advice is pay up. However-----

If there is only one camera then, from the direction the car was approaching the island, it cannot show that the vehicle passed a directional sign. In other words the images and the video will not prove the contravention in themselves. Read what the PCN says about CCTV and one must conclude that there is no proof. Of course the Council could supply stock images of the correct sign at adjudication but IMO the use of the camera here is unsustainable for vehicles travelling in that direction.

Mick
spaceman
QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 10:31) *
..thanks updated it to "Road island". Welcome any thoughts on approach - if I can pay lower amount and then appeal? How to get vid evidence or if its even worth contesting.


Paying the penalty charge will generally close the case.

Personally, I can't see any hope at adjudication where balance of probability comes into play.
stamfordman
There are probably 180 or so tribunal cases on this location in the past 4 years and part from a few no contests I can only spot two allowed:

"The Penalty Charge Notice alleges a contravention at 11:58. The CCTV footage shows the appellant's car drive past the traffic island at 11:57. I find that no contravention occurred at the time alleged on the Penalty Charge Notice."

Is the PCN at 22:03 but pics at 22:01? Have you checked for the video on Hounslow's site?

The other was where the left lane was actually blocked.

Forget the direction of travel - adjudicators are happy with a pic of the keep left sign.
cp8759
Looks banged to rights, don't see how you would contest this.
advicewelcome
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 12:26) *
There are probably 180 or so tribunal cases on this location in the past 4 years and part from a few no contests I can only spot two allowed:

Ya saying that approx two "appeals" allowed out of 180 (not the other way around i.e. two cases allowed and 178 successfully appealed)?

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 12:26) *
"The Penalty Charge Notice alleges a contravention at 11:58. The CCTV footage shows the appellant's car drive past the traffic island at 11:57. I find that no contravention occurred at the time alleged on the Penalty Charge Notice." Is the PCN at 22:03 but pics at 22:01? Have you checked for the video on Hounslow's site?

Ta. Have requested the video and will post up.

stamfordman
QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 00:25) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 12:26) *
There are probably 180 or so tribunal cases on this location in the past 4 years and part from a few no contests I can only spot two allowed:

Ya saying that approx two "appeals" allowed out of 180 (not the other way around i.e. two cases allowed and 178 successfully appealed)?

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 12:26) *
"The Penalty Charge Notice alleges a contravention at 11:58. The CCTV footage shows the appellant's car drive past the traffic island at 11:57. I find that no contravention occurred at the time alleged on the Penalty Charge Notice." Is the PCN at 22:03 but pics at 22:01? Have you checked for the video on Hounslow's site?

Ta. Have requested the video and will post up.



A search brought up 193 cases in Lionel Road North. A few of those are for other contraventions (eg parking on pavement) but the vast majority I reckon are for the traffic island. Nearly all were refused at appeal. The only one that might be a glimmer of hope is the time on the PCN vs the time of the video.
advicewelcome
Hi,

Date of this notice was 11-May-2018.

Assume I have until the 25-May-2018 to pay £65 else it will be £130.

There is no sign of this requested video evidence mad.gif.

Received a PCN video email couple of days ago, but it was for a PCN in May 2016 (old one) blink.gif

Whatsa a chap gonna do here? If we wait for the video, will loose the option to pay lower rate.

From the consensus of the above, if the driver drove on the other side of the island (because it was tight) - its a slam dunk for them - unless the driver can prove they had too - which may be hard even with the video evidence (due to its angle).

Do I just pay the £65 quid now and be done with it?

Really appreciate past advise - welcome best approach now thoughts.





stamfordman
I would pay this at discount. If you want to satisfy yourself go look at the tribunal decisions.

One made me laugh - a driver who claimed there was 'broken glass' - dismissed by the adjudicator as 'preposterous'.
advicewelcome
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 16:45) *
I would pay this at discount. If you want to satisfy yourself go look at the tribunal decisions.
Think you are right. Not sure where to look - be good to know for future reference.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 16:45) *
One made me laugh - a driver who claimed there was 'broken glass' - dismissed by the adjudicator as 'preposterous'.
The supplier for viewmypcn.co.uk are obviously pretty useless. I am getting emails about videos being ready that were requested in 2016. There is no sign of the current video request showing up.

Its a p*ss take to not make the video available quickly by the supplier when the council have put a 14 day time limit around the reduce payment to the appellant.

Is there a defence for not paying the reduced amount until the video evidence is actually available? Or even not paying it due to the wrong video being provided?

... just asking.
stamfordman
You can appeal and they will reoffer the discount when they reject, which will give time to get hold of the video.

But what are you looking for here? An invisible force field in the left hand lane?
advicewelcome
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 17:13) *
You can appeal and they will reoffer the discount when they reject, which will give time to get hold of the video.
But what are you looking for here? An invisible force field in the left hand lane?


Well anything that may show the reasoning for scooting around. Maybe there a violation by someone parking on the double yellow line making it very tight in that lane when in the dark (clearly there are many drivers who have taken this action).

The challenge is that you can't check and make a viable appeal until you see the video. Unless an appeal is sent, requesting more time so that the video can be viewed? Is that technically possible?

stamfordman
Anything's possible - the council has full discretion to put it on hold.

The pic on the PCN shows nothing though.
advicewelcome
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 22 May 2018 - 09:22) *
Anything's possible - the council has full discretion to put it on hold.
The pic on the PCN shows nothing though.


It aint the council - the only email is a Serco email. Would I write to them and expect them to respond in the next day letting me know I have more time?
advicewelcome
QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Tue, 22 May 2018 - 16:55) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 22 May 2018 - 09:22) *
Anything's possible - the council has full discretion to put it on hold.
The pic on the PCN shows nothing though.

It aint the council - the only email is a Serco email. Would I write to them and expect them to respond in the next day letting me know I have more time?

Sent the below. If anything else I should include, let me know and will send additional email.

"Hi, in reference to a PCN on LIONEL NORTH ROAD

The driver is unable to determine if this PCN is valid and if and how it should be appealed.

A request for video evidence has been made but no video evidence has been available to view.

I request that the reduced fee time be extended in order for the video to be viewed first.

I welcome your reply to this email during the course of today/tomorrow to confirm this.
"


Think it may be a lost cause, just bugs me that its a cash cow for them - rather than doing something to stop the issue.






stamfordman
How fast were you driving at the time?
advicewelcome
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 22 May 2018 - 17:27) *
How fast were you driving at the time?

Driver will have no idea - was a while ago. It would not have been fast, as driver is generally careful, there are speedbumps, its a narrow road and it was late night and dark.

From car level the entrance to the correct side of the island would have looked very tight, specially in the dark. Moreover, you cannot straddle the speed bump on the left side of the road - the car is not the newest and can do with straddling as many speed bumps as possible.

Don' t know if this is all academic? - if there is no justification for going around the other side unless there is a clear obstruction?

Council should be extending the yellow line so there is more car clearance to view the island entrance clearly and straddle the speed bump (can't see them doing that if they hear the till ringing - cha-ching)




stamfordman
Just saying as it's a 20mph limit so not much excuse for failing to navigate it.
advicewelcome
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 22 May 2018 - 17:54) *
Just saying as it's a 20mph limit so not much excuse for failing to navigate it.


you would have to go slower than 20mph to get around any parked car and around that island.

Anycase, today got an email saying that the video evidence is "ready".

When clicking on the email link and entering PCN numbers I get the below.

You sometimes feel that there is conspiracy to not rush the video out in advance of the 14 days.

I guess this is all at the Councils discretion if they wish to accept reduced funds after 14 days - nowt the motorist can do?






Oh, and auto-reply below in response to my email asking for more time.

Considering I have to make a decision tomorrow, how much fun it is to read...


"Thank you for your communication. Please take this automated response as confirmation that we have received your email. However, if your email does not contain a valid Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) number or VRM that is on our system we will be unable to respond to you.

This email address is only to be used for challenges/representations against PCNs that have been issued by Hounslow Council. Please read the response times below. Do not send an email chasing your challenge/representation until at least 21 days have passed.

Response Times to Penalty Charge Notice Challenges and Representations
While the Council is only required to respond to representations within certain statutory timescales (typically 56 days), we endeavor to deal with most correspondence within 10 working days.

Further information regarding these statutory timescales, as well as other useful information regarding parking, can be found at the following link:
http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/index/transport...arking/pcns.htm

Parking Permits and General Enquiries
This email address cannot be used for general or Parking Permit enquiries and is only to be used for challenges/representations against PCNs that have been issued by Hounslow Council. You must supply a valid PCN number or VRM.

Resident/Business Parking Permits - To apply for a permit, please use the EasiPermits online service available via the ‘Apply for a parking permit’ link at www.hounslow.gov.uk

Kind Regards
Parking Team - Hounslow"







advicewelcome
Its pay day today - or appeal and fight it.

Got the video through today (I guess the email may have got them into action).

https://youtu.be/KECyr6EduIk

Can see the driver hesitating and then taking the other side of the island - split second decision - is not easy to see in the dark.

Its not possible to avoid the car to the left of the driver, not go across the hatched lined area, and straddle the hump.

The hatched lined area does not provide enough space from the parked car and thus the confusion. The other side does not have this problem.

Anyone with a educated view on if this would be definitely be successful in appeal (others have not) and is willing to assist with content to for an appeal.

Else I will have to pay it.

Welcome views.

advicewelcome
Should I assume from the deft silence this is a lost cause and my wallet is going to be lighter this bank holiday? sad.gif

https://www.youtube.com/embed/KECyr6EduIk
stamfordman
They will reoffer the discount if you don't make a frivolous appeal so you could try. I wouldn't bother given the almost non-existent appeal success here.
cp8759
QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Fri, 25 May 2018 - 14:58) *
Should I assume from the deft silence this is a lost cause and my wallet is going to be lighter this bank holiday? sad.gif

https://www.youtube.com/embed/KECyr6EduIk

Well it's a clear-cut case of just driving on the wrong side of the road, dare I say for no apparent reason / benefit. We won't advise you to appeal if the appeal would be hopeless, you'd be wasting the tribunal's time and you'd be at risk of an adverse costs order do you'd lose even more money. It's hard to see what non-frivolous appeal you could make.
advicewelcome
Thanks for the views.... just one quick thing...

Was paying this prior to the deadline. When inputting PCN/Reg in website it indicated the amount to pay was £0.

Anycase, put in my debit card number etc.. and got an email confirmation of payment (the email had an Authorisation Code of "ZERO_AMOUNT")?

Tried entering PCN/Reg back in website and it says its already paid (kept a screenshot).

Glitch or deliberate council approach to put the scare on?

Do I have a defendable position as I have screen shot and email confirmation of payment?


stamfordman
You could call the payment line and see what they say.
PASTMYBEST
You've got a good argument if they try to dun you for£130
cp8759
QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Tue, 29 May 2018 - 01:43) *
Thanks for the views.... just one quick thing...

Was paying this prior to the deadline. When inputting PCN/Reg in website it indicated the amount to pay was £0.

Anycase, put in my debit card number etc.. and got an email confirmation of payment (the email had an Authorisation Code of "ZERO_AMOUNT")?

Tried entering PCN/Reg back in website and it says its already paid (kept a screenshot).

Glitch or deliberate council approach to put the scare on?

Do I have a defendable position as I have screen shot and email confirmation of payment?

Keep screenshots of everything, if they say you have to pay £130 you have a pretty much cast iron defence.
Drivingpains
Hi, oh yes, if you can believe it....

Received a PCN Web Order Reference number indicating payment back in late May-18 (above thread).

Just received a Charge Certificate dated 15-Aug-18 indicating that Penalty amount of £130 has gone up to the full amount of £195 and this is due.

This seems like a screw up with Serco (who are administrating on behalf of London Hounslow).

This is my proposed email reply. Do let me know if I should change anything...


Hi, in reference to a PCN on LIONEL NORTH ROAD

A payment transaction occurred for this ticket and a receipt was received via email.

The additional Charge Certificate indicating no payment and increase in funds for this PCN is incorrect.

I have a PCN WEB ORDER REFERNCE number which provide evidence that the transaction occurred.

PCN WEB ORDER REFERENCE : HOU_XXXXXXX_XXXX_XX_

This order reference number was send to me in confirmation.

I will assume that the further Charge Certificate is an error on your side and will take no further action.

I also welcome confirmation that the WEB ORDER REFERENCE number is correct.

If I receive further requests for payment I will escalate my complaint to a representative at the Council.

I request that you contact me via this email (and not rely on letters) as I travel away from my home address often.


Thanks.

Name
Address
Reg Number
PCN Number





cp8759
Did you actually pay the £65 charge?
Drivingpains
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 13:02) *
Did you actually pay the £65 charge?

Thanks for the reply. Went through the motions, went to the payment website, entered in the Reg number, got payment screens, entered in the card, got a payment successful screen as well...



Also got a payment successful email as follow up - and then noticed it said £0.00 on the payment email.
The emails for contact are to Serco which are probably who Houslow have outsourced this work too. Clearly that company has screwed up with their systems (maybe things are a mess as got "your video is ready" emails months later as well).

Anyhow having paid if (or at least attempting to) on 25-May-18, then got the below 3months later...



The generic email provided is hounslow.challenges@serco.com. Thinking of sending the below message with the payment screen attached. If Serco have screwed up, the only way out of it (I guess) is to assume they do not want their council bosses to know and send in the above evidence to them which may mean they cancel the ticket? Unless there are any other ideas? I suppose worse case they can ask if for the initial payment again.


Hi, in reference to a PCN on LIONEL NORTH ROAD

A payment transaction occurred for this ticket and a receipt was received via email.

The additional Charge Certificate indicating no payment and increase in funds for this PCN is incorrect.

I have a PCN WEB ORDER REFERNCE number which provide evidence that the transaction occurred.

PCN WEB ORDER REFERENCE : HOU_XXXXXXX_XXXX_XX_

This order reference number was send to me in confirmation.

I will assume that the further Charge Certificate is an error on your side and will take no further action.

I also welcome confirmation that the WEB ORDER REFERENCE number is correct.

If I receive further requests for payment I will escalate my complaint to a representative at the Council.

I request that you contact me via this email (and not rely on letters) as I travel away from my home address often.


Thanks.

Name
Address
Reg Number
PCN Number



Should I send the above email? - any edits to it? Or anything else I should be doing?
cp8759
Well did they take £65 from your bank account?
advicewelcome
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 20:22) *
Well did they take £65 from your bank account?

No, don't think they took the money even though I put card and other details in for payment. Seemed like some kind of system error as they were trying to process £0.00 payment and then provided a successful transaction page and sent a payment successful email - with a transaction number afterwards.

Unsure where I stand, if the incompetence of Serco providing some kind of payment confirmation will mean there is a way out of paying any of it? . The emails on the letters are to Serco inboxes and not their clients Houslow who probably are unaware of these mess ups. Hence the threats on my email to go to their clients if they don't drop it - dunno if I should change the contents of that email or do something else?
Drivingpains
https://www.serco.com/uk/news/media-release...london-alliance

"Elaine Bailey, Managing Director of Serco's home affairs business said: "We are delighted to have been awarded this exciting new contract to run parking services for the West London Alliance. We believe our fresh ideas and extensive experience in managing complex operations and innovative technologies will deliver a much improved and more efficient parking service across all three boroughs. This will not only benefit both local residents and visitors but also deliver significant savings to the taxpayer. Civil Enforcement is a fast growing market, both in the UK and globally, and Serco is well placed to add innovation and value to future opportunities in this market."
cp8759
If, when the payment failed to go through, you didn't either make representations or attempt to pay by other means, then you've lost your right to appeal and there's not much you can do apart from paying the increased charge. You can't claim the penalty exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, as the tribunal has ruled that if one payment method doesn't work you should make a reasonable attempt to pay by other means.
advicewelcome
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 20:04) *
If, when the payment failed to go through, you didn't either make representations or attempt to pay by other means, then you've lost your right to appeal and there's not much you can do apart from paying the increased charge. You can't claim the penalty exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, as the tribunal has ruled that if one payment method doesn't work you should make a reasonable attempt to pay by other means.



This is worrying. I guess in this circumstance a confirmation screen and email was received indicating that the payment had been successful, therefore no attempt for any other payment method... reasonable position?

I suppose I have nothing to loose by making these arguments? as they are demanding the full amount now. Is there anything else I should do other then sending the above email to serco mailbox, am open to suggestions.


hcandersen
???
According to OP they attempted to pay what they thought was the outstanding penalty.

Council system showed outstanding balance of £0.

Notwithstanding this, OP thought this might be an error and so completed the online payment procedure just in case the sum of £65 was still owing and could be paid.

Received confirmation by way of **** that payment of £0 had been received.

As we know, councils have the power to exercise discretion at any time. Why shouldn’t the OP, as your average owner and not one steeped in the finer points of procedure and tribunal decisions, reasonably assume that they had done so on this occasion?

Why should OP try by other means, there’s nothing to try, the recognised - as I understand it- council page stated that £0 was owed. Walk into their payment shop(if they have one) and browbeat the staff into accepting £65? But they couldn’t, all they’ve got is access to the same system.

(there are £squillions held in council suspense accounts up and down the land, all there because people pay monies not owed or incorrectly referenced. But there’s no suggestion here that the OP misreferenced their details).

I’d write to the council, but not in an overtly legal manner, just plain simple facts about the error. Tell them that receiving the Charge Cert has unfairly cost you £130 because you were content to pay the penalty at the discounted rate but this has now increased to £195. The only solution which you can see is for you to submit representations late, for these (which only go to mitigation) to be considered by the authority and probably rejected, but what is life without hope, which rejection would re-offer the discount and allow the authority to put their payment system back into order so that you could pay. And include the best mitigation you can muster.

But you must get back to them quickly and make them aware.



Drivingpains
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 07:40) *
???
According to OP they attempted to pay what they thought was the outstanding penalty.

Council system showed outstanding balance of £0.

Notwithstanding this, OP thought this might be an error and so completed the online payment procedure just in case the sum of £65 was still owing and could be paid.

Received confirmation by way of **** that payment of £0 had been received.

As we know, councils have the power to exercise discretion at any time. Why shouldn’t the OP, as your average owner and not one steeped in the finer points of procedure and tribunal decisions, reasonably assume that they had done so on this occasion?

Why should OP try by other means, there’s nothing to try, the recognised - as I understand it- council page stated that £0 was owed. Walk into their payment shop(if they have one) and browbeat the staff into accepting £65? But they couldn’t, all they’ve got is access to the same system.

(there are £squillions held in council suspense accounts up and down the land, all there because people pay monies not owed or incorrectly referenced. But there’s no suggestion here that the OP misreferenced their details).

I’d write to the council, but not in an overtly legal manner, just plain simple facts about the error. Tell them that receiving the Charge Cert has unfairly cost you £130 because you were content to pay the penalty at the discounted rate but this has now increased to £195. The only solution which you can see is for you to submit representations late, for these (which only go to mitigation) to be considered by the authority and probably rejected, but what is life without hope, which rejection would re-offer the discount and allow the authority to put their payment system back into order so that you could pay. And include the best mitigation you can muster.

But you must get back to them quickly and make them aware.


Thanks. You kinda right...

...does the motorist really have to check that a payment has gone out of their bank account - when its up to the council (and their delegated suppliers) to delivery payments methods that work.

I have the screen shots and the email. The charge letter provides reply emails to Serco. Maybe I write to them first and they may let me off the hook if I don't complain to their Council client (obvious their technology/service mess up). And I try and contact the Council if I don't get a response within a day or so - although Councils do not provide an easy way to contact them about Parking (as they don't want to deal with the public on this matter)...

"Parking - 020 8583 2000 (This is an automated payment service, Note all appeals against tickets must be made online. We do not discuss parking tickets by telephone)"


advicewelcome
Ho--hum... alleged contravention was 06/05/2018.

Got a letter some 5+ months later saying that they cannot find their payment and wanting further info.

I kept the screen shots when making the payment online.

But this is a hassle as there is no obvious way to reply to them or send message.

Not sure if I have any come back to say its been 5+ months and want this quashed as it is obvious a problem with their systems.

Also I don't have that payment card any more as the bank has sent another one through for replacement.

(Was thinking of replying with the payment evidence and indicating that I will go to MP/Houslow Councillor due to incompetence with systems and delays in corresponding unless they quash it?).

Any suggestions on how to reply and what to say to knock this on the head?

Appreciate past advise.



cp8759
Contact details here: https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/info/20052/park...arge_notice_pcn
hcandersen
Don't get distracted by this red herring.

Post #64 shows a PAYMENT SUCCESSFUL email from the council. It seemed bizarre to you, as to me, that they should ask for £0 - you say you have a screenshot of this- but this is what their specified online payment system stated.

advicewelcome
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 14:33) *
Don't get distracted by this red herring. Post #64 shows a PAYMENT SUCCESSFUL email from the council. It seemed bizarre to you, as to me, that they should ask for £0 - you say you have a screenshot of this- but this is what their specified online payment system stated.


Yep, so I paid what the system asked and got a payment confirmation - but the system did not indicate what the PCN stated probably because the silly technology contractor (SERCO maybe?) messed up (which is the Council issue for hiring them in the first place).

I just aint got the time for dealing with this forever or troubleshooting their systems, so want to send them a robust message saying here is the confirmation, don't have any card numbers as they have changed now, its been 5months+, I will escalate if you pursue it. Was looking for feedback on this or ideas of what to state (if people had been in this situation before)...?
cp8759
QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 11:57) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 14:33) *
Don't get distracted by this red herring. Post #64 shows a PAYMENT SUCCESSFUL email from the council. It seemed bizarre to you, as to me, that they should ask for £0 - you say you have a screenshot of this- but this is what their specified online payment system stated.


Yep, so I paid what the system asked and got a payment confirmation - but the system did not indicate what the PCN stated probably because the silly technology contractor (SERCO maybe?) messed up (which is the Council issue for hiring them in the first place).

I just aint got the time for dealing with this forever or troubleshooting their systems, so want to send them a robust message saying here is the confirmation, don't have any card numbers as they have changed now, its been 5months+, I will escalate if you pursue it. Was looking for feedback on this or ideas of what to state (if people had been in this situation before)...?

Send them an unredacted copy of the payment confirmation screenshot you put in post 34, and tell them to find the payment from the web order reference. Nothing confrontational, just something like "The PCN was paid on such and such a date, please find attached the confirmation of payment screenshot from your website. I trust you will be able to look up the payment from the web order reference number shown".
advicewelcome

Gawd, some more letters through from last May 2018.

I did reply to all their correspondence.

Also I have sent screen shots and other information they have requested.

I do not have that card anymore as its expired, so not sure where I will get the numbers from.

Does this saga have no end? Is there someone I can go to - Councillor, anyone that gets me out of this endless loop?






cp8759
You might want to consider paying the £65 charge you were attempting to pay in the first place. As things stand, you have no route of appeal to the tribunal that I can see.
advicewelcome
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 10:29) *
You might want to consider paying the £65 charge you were attempting to pay in the first place. As things stand, you have no route of appeal to the tribunal that I can see.


If they believe I have no route of appeal then they I doubt they will be budging. Statutory procedures may exist for PCN's - but the issue isn't the PCN, its their payment systems c*ck-up. Just doesn't seem right. Taken forever to get any correspondence out of them in the first place and think someone on the end of my responses is just winging it.



cp8759
The only statutory declaration options for this type of PCN are:

1) You never got the PCN,
2) You made representations to the council but never had a reply, or
3) You made an appeal to the tribunal but never had a reply.

As none of these scenarios apply, you can't file a statutory declaration (I remind you that filing a false SD is a criminal offence). In light of this, paying might be the best option.
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