Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: [NIP Wizard] Camera Error? NIP Speed Limit Error?
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Skippy123
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - March 2018
Date of the NIP: - 2 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 4 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M1-4620 J35-34
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - It was 6.45am on a Sunday morning, I was cruising at around 72mph on the M1 with light traffic on the road. I noticed a gantry ahead with 50 in a red circle. I steadily slowed down but as I went under the gantry the camera flashed.

NIP gives a recorded speed of 65mph and states the speed limit as 40mph. I saw the sign clearly and I'm sure it was 50. Also, there were no other signs before or after the one illuminated therefore no warning signs and no incremental speed drops. The traffic was light as early on a Sunday morning, and there was no evidence of roadworks or an accident. I am thinking there has been some kind of error.

After reading this forum I was planning to return the NIP filled in together with a polite letter stating the above facts. I would really appreciate any advice or pointers! Thank you smile.gif


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 01 Apr 2018 16:58:20 +0000
notmeatloaf
Firstly, do not send a letter (yet) disputing the facts as camera clerks have a habit of putting you in the "going to court" tray and won't offer a fixed penalty. Seeing as you are at the top speed still to get a fixed penalty (3pts/£100, 66mph and above is court) it is crucial you keep that option on the table.

Have they supplied photos with the NIP? If not write back asking for photos "to help identify the driver", not mentioning proof, evidence or that you dispute the speed/limit at this stage.

They will very likely send the photos back or direct you to a website. HADECS3 cameras take a photo both of you and also a CCTV camera captures the gantry as you passed under it. It will include data as to how long the limit has been displayed for. Legally the minimum is 10 seconds but 99.9% of the time there is a minute's grace before enforcement begins.

The secondary corroboration with a HADECS3 camera is that it circles your car where it expects it to be - lane and position - if the speed is correct - similar to a high tech GATSO (they both work on radar). They are normally very accurate. If the limit was 50mph then although you are still technically speeding they may drop it out of embarrassment. But cross that bridge when you come to it and have the photos in your hand.
Skippy123
Thank you so much for the prompt reply and advice. Should I keep hold of the NIP and just send a separate letter asking for photographs?
Logician
QUOTE (Skippy123 @ Sun, 1 Apr 2018 - 19:10) *
Thank you so much for the prompt reply and advice. Should I keep hold of the NIP and just send a separate letter asking for photographs?


Yes, you should not return the NIP form without identifying the driver and clearly you cannot use the excuse of trying to identify the driver to obtain the photographs and at the same time return the form identifying the driver. So, as you say, hang on to the NIP and send a letter asking for the photos.

Do be aware that asking for photos does not stop the clock on the time you are allowed to return the NIP form, be careful not to exceed that.

122basy
They won’t be embarrassed at all if the limit was 50, they will simply change the limit from 40 to 50.
Skippy123
With the S172 form there is a FAQ sheet...
"Q4 CAN I REQUEST PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE? Images captured at the time of the alleged offence are required as evidence to confirm vehicle, speed and offence location; they are not taken to identify the driver. Responsibility rests with the recipient of this request to provide as much information as possible to identify the driver."

I'm not totally sure what they mean here. Are they likely to provide me with photos to identify who was driving?

Thanks
notmeatloaf
Ignore 122basy, he exists to be unhelpful.

They are right that the images are only required to identify the vehicle. In fact they will definitely not identify the driver for HADECS3.

The reason why they normally supply them is that if you can't identify the driver then you are required to exercise reasonable diligence to identify them. Depending on the camera the images range between useful and useless.

If you have requested the images and don't get them correspondingly varies between useful and useless in a defence of reasonable diligence. Seeing as it is not much more work to just supply the images rather than say no the police normally just supply them. Occasionally not, but don't ask, don't get.

The camera office may drop it if the limit is wrong because HADECS3 are meant to be essentially automated. It could be argued in court that if one part of that system is not working than the entire system cannot be relied upon. It is a long shot not least because (without looking) the data link is unlikely to be part of the type approval, although clearly it is part of the same camera software.

Going not guilty in court is a risky process and one that is ideally avoided. However, you are only one offence and with the right letter it may be simpler to just cancel and avoid the risk.
cp8759
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 1 Apr 2018 - 20:31) *
Going not guilty in court is a risky process and one that is ideally avoided. However, you are only one offence and with the right letter it may be simpler to just cancel and avoid the risk.

What risk? They risk nothing in pressing ahead.
122basy
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 1 Apr 2018 - 23:27) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 1 Apr 2018 - 20:31) *
Going not guilty in court is a risky process and one that is ideally avoided. However, you are only one offence and with the right letter it may be simpler to just cancel and avoid the risk.

What risk? They risk nothing in pressing ahead.

Nothing at all.

No harm in asking for images. Some police areas will some won’t. They will know why you are asking for them whatever reason you give.
notmeatloaf
There is no risk at all in cancelling the ticket either. In fact I recall a couple of weeks ago 122basy was saying how easy it was to cancel tickets, "just a click".

If they proceed with the ticket and it is potentially a non-standard case it will cost the police and CPS more than will be recovered. Perhaps the police have money/time to burn and it is just the NHS but if you cost your department a load of money/time, even justifiably, it tends not to make your manager amazingly happy.
Skippy123
***UPDATE***
Just received another NIP dated two days after the original one. All details including ref no identical except speed limit now stated as 50 mph.

So that's correct as I was doing 65 in a 50. It seems there's no reason to ask for photos now so should I just complete and return the S172 and is it worth a cover letter mentioning that the speed went from 70 to 50 with no incremental shift (ie no 60 sign) and no other warning signs for roadworks or accident or incident and the traffic was v light? There was one single gantry showing a reduced speed and there really seemed no reason for it - either human/ computer error? (or an intention to increase revenue for South Yorkshire?)

I did a speed awareness course in April last year with West Yorkshire Police. Does this disqualify me from doing another course with a different constabulary (in this case South Yorkshire)?

In short, now they've corrected the speed limit on the NIP should I just take it on the chin, pay the £100 fine and take the 3 points?
NewJudge
There is no requirement for the "staged" decrease you describe, nor for any roadworks or any other signs. Your earlier course makes you ineligible for one this time round so the FP is your best option.
Logician
QUOTE (Skippy123 @ Mon, 2 Apr 2018 - 22:35) *
I did a speed awareness course in April last year with West Yorkshire Police. Does this disqualify me from doing another course with a different constabulary (in this case South Yorkshire)?


If your previous course was not a motorway speed awareness course, it is possible that you might now be offered such a course as you were on a smart motorway, but it is up to South Yorkshire Police to decide.

Skippy123
Thanks everyone for all the help - much appreciated!
I'll return the S172 and let you know what happens. It would be great if they offer me the smart motorway awareness course but I'm guessing this is unlikely as I was doing 65 in a 50 so quite a bit over the limit at that point.

I'll update once I get a response. Thanks again!
Jlc
A fixed penalty would normally be offered for 65 in a 40 or a 50, so the net result is the same but one would like it to be correct... (However, the displayed limit 'error' isn't strictly an issue that would prevent further action anyway)

But a strange error.

QUOTE (Skippy123 @ Mon, 2 Apr 2018 - 22:35) *
...or an intention to increase revenue for South Yorkshire?

Considering they won't get the revenue (directly at least) I suspect this isn't the case... wink.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.