DGEORGIOU94
Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 20:34
Hi,
I would just like any advice on what I could do to appeal a PCN I received.
I was parked outside a friends house, car being in front of the drive blocking in my friends father and mothers cars. I was aware that it was a residential zone but my friend didn't have any parking permit slips that I can put on my car but he assured me that it is fine to park there.
Obviously I then received a PCN for the parking violation however I did have consent to park there by the resident and I wasn't taking up any space except for the space in front of their drive.
How can I appeal this? Or is there any way I can?
Any help or advice would be appreciated.
Thank you
peterguk
Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 20:36
QUOTE (DGEORGIOU94 @ Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 20:34)
I then received a PCN for the parking violation
What parking violation? There are loads of different violations, and "parking outside a friend's house" isn't one of them.
Post up all sides of PCN, and link to GSV.
DGEORGIOU94
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 11:50
I was issued the PCN for being "Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without either clearly displaying a valid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge" - Contravention Code 12R
I was parked in front of my friends drive blocking in two cars his family owns, I parked there specifically as to not take up any other residents space on the road.
stamfordman
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 11:59
Post decent size pics on a pic site such as Imgur or Flickr. No one can read those.
What's the Google Street View?
DGEORGIOU94
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:00
Here are better quality photos of the PCN.
stamfordman
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:05
OK - seems there is commuter control in bays 1030-11.30 am - your PCN is timed at 10.54.
So bang to rights with no visitors permit it seems. Your friend really should have known about the 1 hour restriction and you must check bay signs.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6359342,-0....3312!8i6656
DGEORGIOU94
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:14
Yeah I understand all that but I didn't get a 10 minute window to return to my car, the CEO issued me the PCN within 2 minutes. Also being directly in front of the drive blocking in two other cars can I not argue that the CEO could've even knocked asking if the car belonged to the residents?
nextdoor
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:26
QUOTE (DGEORGIOU94 @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:14)
Yeah I understand all that but I didn't get a 10 minute window to return to my car, the CEO issued me the PCN within 2 minutes. Also being directly in front of the drive blocking in two other cars can I not argue that the CEO could've even knocked asking if the car belonged to the residents?
10 minute grace period does not apply to resident bays and CEO's are not in the business of going round knocking at doors.
Discount looks attractive.
stamfordman
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:36
You can of course ask for discretion - they can consider this but do not have to a accept your reasons.
John U.K.
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:40
Just curious - how can you have a bay(where one may park at times) running across a DK?
stamfordman
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:44
QUOTE (John U.K. @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:40)
Just curious - how can you have a bay(where one may park at times) running across a DK?
This is a common theme where people have wrongly been given a code 27 in such parking bays.
Here's a shot of this street - note also the zone end signs in teh distance so that's where the OP should have parked.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6360305,-0....3312!8i6656
DGEORGIOU94
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:52
Thanks for all your opinions, I'll appeal this and see what happens.
Neil B
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 13:17
QUOTE (DGEORGIOU94 @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:52)
Thanks for all your opinions, I'll appeal this and see what happens.
You are rushing.
Wait for further opinions a couple of days.
The bays allow parking but if anyone does, at
any time, they become liable to Police action for obstruction?
Very odd.
Ergo, since nobody would be daft enough, you might have a 'legitimate expectation' that it is ok for
you to
park, knowing you are not obstructing.I'm speculating but it's a thought.
DGEORGIOU94
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:32
QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 13:17)
QUOTE (DGEORGIOU94 @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:52)
Thanks for all your opinions, I'll appeal this and see what happens.
You are rushing.
Wait for further opinions a couple of days.
The bays allow parking but if anyone does, at
any time, they become liable to Police action for obstruction?
Very odd.
Ergo, since nobody would be daft enough, you might have a 'legitimate expectation' that it is ok for
you to
park, knowing you are not obstructing.I'm speculating but it's a thought.
Thank you for this opinion, that was my reasoning as well. I am not taking up an actual space where someone can actually park without obstructing anyone. I am clearly in front of someones drive and you're right nobody is daft enough to leave their car in such a way.
stamfordman
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:55
The parking restriction is to deter commuter parking not anything else. In which case you can say you were a visitor and not a commuter.
DGEORGIOU94
Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:59
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:55)
The parking restriction is to deter commuter parking not anything else. In which case you can say you were a visitor and not a commuter.
That's a good point.
DancingDad
Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 11:13
QUOTE (nextdoor @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:26)
QUOTE (DGEORGIOU94 @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:14)
Yeah I understand all that but I didn't get a 10 minute window to return to my car, the CEO issued me the PCN within 2 minutes. Also being directly in front of the drive blocking in two other cars can I not argue that the CEO could've even knocked asking if the car belonged to the residents?
10 minute grace period does not apply to resident bays and CEO's are not in the business of going round knocking at doors.
Discount looks attractive.
10 minute grace period does apply to resident bays.
But not in this case as the PCN was served after the 10 minutes from being lawfully parked had expired.
Agree that discount looks good.
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:55)
The parking restriction is to deter commuter parking not anything else. In which case you can say you were a visitor and not a commuter.
Do what?
While I'm all for grabbing whatever applies, that is grasping at straws, bay is clear, signs are clear.
Unless someone can find a tech error on the PCN or the council really mess up any rejection, this will not be won.
DastardlyDick
Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 11:21
QUOTE (DGEORGIOU94 @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:32)
QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 13:17)
QUOTE (DGEORGIOU94 @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 12:52)
Thanks for all your opinions, I'll appeal this and see what happens.
You are rushing.
Wait for further opinions a couple of days.
The bays allow parking but if anyone does, at
any time, they become liable to Police action for obstruction?
Very odd.
Ergo, since nobody would be daft enough, you might have a 'legitimate expectation' that it is ok for
you to
park, knowing you are not obstructing.I'm speculating but it's a thought.
nobody is daft enough to leave their car in such a way.
Really? If you'd seen as many examples of this type of parking as I have.....
stamfordman
Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 11:25
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 11:13)
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:55)
The parking restriction is to deter commuter parking not anything else. In which case you can say you were a visitor and not a commuter.
Do what?
While I'm all for grabbing whatever applies, that is grasping at straws, bay is clear, signs are clear.
Unless someone can find a tech error on the PCN or the council really mess up any rejection, this will not be won.
I know. Just on the basis that if you don't ask you don't get.
Neil B
Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 12:14
QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 11:21)
Really? If you'd seen as many examples of this type of parking as I have.....
As have we all but it doesn't make them workable does it.
That said, as much as common sense says it's nonsense, I think I too was clutching at straws.
DancingDad
Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 13:03
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 12:14)
.......That said, as much as common sense says it's nonsense, I think I too was clutching at straws.
That's the problem here and is typical of much enforcement.
No common sense and one size fits all.
The restrictions obviously put in to help residents and deter commuter parking.
But once in, they apply to all and many caught by them will be residents or their visitors.
A challenge saying Ooops, terribly sorry, was visiting ??? and forgot the time, please exercise your discretion on this occasion is all I can offer.
Within the 14 day period to protect discount and you never know, they may muck up the answer or indeed, let the Fairy Godmother Dept cancel it.
Neil B
Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 15:06
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 13:03)
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 12:14)
.......That said, as much as common sense says it's nonsense, I think I too was clutching at straws.
That's the problem here and is typical of much enforcement.
No common sense and one size fits all.
The restrictions obviously put in to help residents and deter commuter parking.
But once in, they apply to all and many caught by them will be residents or their visitors.
A challenge saying Ooops, terribly sorry, was visiting ??? and forgot the time, please exercise your discretion on this occasion is all I can offer.
Within the 14 day period to protect discount and you never know, they may muck up the answer or indeed, let the Fairy Godmother Dept cancel it.
I'm still wondering if there's anything in leg. that says restrictions/parking places have to be feasible?
stamfordman
Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 15:06
Make sure you say you were parked across your friend's drive-in with their permission for a visit to their house, and were not trying to evade the purpose of the restriction, which you now understand is to deter commuter parking.
DancingDad
Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 18:16
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 15:06)
..........I'm still wondering if there's anything in leg. that says restrictions/parking places have to be feasible?
There's various rigmaroles that councils ought to use to justify raising a traffic order, some of which may be in legislation.
But end of the day, they have created a traffic order and that will be seen as legal unless someone can dig down and show it was unlawfully created.
Chances are, even if someone did, there is a six month rule for any objections and often challenges to an order get lumped into that.
The order may not actually make what the OP did a contravention or there may be an exemption... so possibly worth asking for a copy.
But I would not hold out any hope
And while I dislike doing it, someone has to say to the OP that this is a good one to learn from but don't lose the discount.
hcandersen
Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 22:38
OP, can we see the council's photos please.
As for 'but my friend didn't have any parking permit slips that I can put on my car but he assured me that it is fine to park there. ' maybe you should get them to pay any penalty. I must say that it seems odd that a frontager would be that ignorant when there would have been a consultation with affected occupiers - and indeed the scheme might have been and probably was introduced in response to their concerns - which would have set out clearly the implications of such a scheme which according to GSV looks new.
I'm having some problem with your friend's approach e.g. 'didn't have any permit slips' implies that either they knew permits were needed but had run out or never had any. Why, I wonder?
spaceman
Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 12:17
QUOTE (DGEORGIOU94 @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:59)
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:55)
The parking restriction is to deter commuter parking not anything else. In which case you can say you were a visitor and not a commuter.
That's a good point.
No it isn't. The restriction might well be to deter commuters, but it applies to all.
DGEORGIOU94
Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 12:40
Hi all,
Here are the photo's from the PCN.
Sorry, didn't upload properly.
Here they are again.
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 22:38)
OP, can we see the council's photos please.
As for 'but my friend didn't have any parking permit slips that I can put on my car but he assured me that it is fine to park there. ' maybe you should get them to pay any penalty. I must say that it seems odd that a frontager would be that ignorant when there would have been a consultation with affected occupiers - and indeed the scheme might have been and probably was introduced in response to their concerns - which would have set out clearly the implications of such a scheme which according to GSV looks new.
I'm having some problem with your friend's approach e.g. 'didn't have any permit slips' implies that either they knew permits were needed but had run out or never had any. Why, I wonder?
My mate is a mug who doesn't drive, never even taken a driving lesson.
hcandersen
Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 13:09
Is that the total photos?
They show only that a car was parked in a parking place. Big deal. They should have a photo which captures the sign, the parking place and your car.
DGEORGIOU94
Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 16:25
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 13:09)
Is that the total photos?
They show only that a car was parked in a parking place. Big deal. They should have a photo which captures the sign, the parking place and your car.
Here is the photo of the sign. The sign they took the photo off was a few houses past my friends on a lamppost.
The other photos are literally the same as all the ones I've posted but different angles.
I'll post them now.
It is as if the PCN has taken the photos in a way to not show I was along a drive obstructing the two cars parked there.
nextdoor
Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 17:24
QUOTE (DGEORGIOU94 @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 16:25)
Here is the photo of the sign. The sign they took the photo off was a few houses past my friends on a lamppost.
The PCN says you parked outside no12, comparing GSV and the CEO's photos confirms this. GSV shows a timeplate on lampost 11 which is situated between no 10 and 12, less than 10 feet from where you parked. There are two other timeplates within 20 yards and another opposite.
https://goo.gl/maps/GLZjKvVouEF2
DGEORGIOU94
Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 17:40
QUOTE (nextdoor @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 17:24)
QUOTE (DGEORGIOU94 @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 16:25)
Here is the photo of the sign. The sign they took the photo off was a few houses past my friends on a lamppost.
The PCN says you parked outside no12, comparing GSV and the CEO's photos confirms this. GSV shows a timeplate on lampost 11 which is situated between no 10 and 12, less than 10 feet from where you parked. There are two other timeplates within 20 yards and another opposite.
https://goo.gl/maps/GLZjKvVouEF2Yeah I know that there were signs, I’m not disputing that there wasn’t. I understand that there is a time period I can’t park and I was parking within this time period.
stamfordman
Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 17:44
You're bang to rights on this and can only ask for discretion. As I said, if you don't ask you don't get but the chances are low.
DGEORGIOU94
Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 17:52
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 17:44)
You're bang to rights on this and can only ask for discretion. As I said, if you don't ask you don't get but the chances are low.
Yeah you’re right, I’ll try and blag my way to victory
DGEORGIOU94
Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 19:00
I won
stamfordman
Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 21:26
QUOTE (DGEORGIOU94 @ Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 19:00)
I won
Don't keep us in suspense - post your challenge and their response.
DancingDad
Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 21:31
QUOTE (DGEORGIOU94 @ Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 19:00)
I won
Well done !!
Now we have got over the surprise, please share what you sent and the acceptance.
DGEORGIOU94
Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 09:03
What I wrote:
I am appealing this PCN because I did have permission from the resident to be parked across their drive at the time I was issued the PCN.
I understand that the residential bays and the timed zone between 10:30am - 11:30am are there to prevent commuters from leaving their cars, however, I was not a commuter but a visitor for the residence of 12 Green Moor Link. I arrived at approximately 10:00am and left the property approximately 16:00pm. It is partly shown in the photos by the issuing CEO but if looked at properly they show my car parked along the dipped curve of the drive way obstructing two of the residents' cars. I specifically parked here as not to take up any other residents curb space. Furthermore, I understand that obstructing vehicles at any time whilst in a parking bay would've made me liable to police action. Therefore, because I did actually park in an obstructive manner I felt I had a legitimate expectation that it was okay for me to be parked where I was.
Could you kindly take this into consideration and find it in your powers to cancel this PCN.
If you need further information on this case please feel free to contact either myself or my friend ***** ***** who resides in 12 Green Moor Link.
I don't have the letter on me at the moment but they just accepted what I said and cancelled my PCN basically. I'll upload properly when I am back at home
stamfordman
Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 10:02
The two points - not a commuter and parked across drive - seem to have been persuasive. However in a parking bay you can park across a driveway - but let's not go down that rabbit hole.
DGEORGIOU94
Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 10:13
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 10:02)
The two points - not a commuter and parked across drive - seem to have been persuasive. However in a parking bay you can park across a driveway - but let's not go down that rabbit hole.
Yeah I'll just take the win
DancingDad
Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 10:23
I'm just gobsmacked !
Have to say well done (and I do mean that) but while a win is a win but I wouldn't have taken a bet on it by any means.
Take the win, raise a pint tonight to the Fairy Godmother Department.
makara
Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 13:55
Well done! Maybe whoever did the cancelling had just won on the Lottery, and had handed in their resignation ;-)
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