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DiscoDave
Hi there

I received a NIP 3 months after the alleged speeding date (speeding date 27 October, NIP received Mid January).

Bought current car, 10 October, offence took place under 3 weeks later, but Police say they wrote to keeper of vehicle, within 2 weeks - probably used car dealer where I bought car from.

Surely if that was the case, I would have received something in the post before Mid Jan? And if not, surely I was in the right to return letter advising politely, it was out of date and I wasn't no paying the fine.

Today I receive a letter saying I will receive summons to court in due course. Now, if was me driving, but on advice of these, and other forum I returned letter stating Out Of Date

Whose right, and whose wrong?

Do I still have the chance to pay £100.00 and receive 3 points without it going to court
Logician
The police have to contact the registered keeper or driver within 14 days, but are excused if it is not possible to ascertain the name and address of the RK using reasonable diligence in that time period. In any event the obligation to name the driver remains even if the NIP is out of time.
Whether they will let you pay the fixed penalty now is between you and the police.
Jlc
QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 19:04) *
Do I still have the chance to pay £100.00 and receive 3 points without it going to court

Almost certainly not. Did you name the driver?

Only the 1st NIP has the 14 day restriction - subsequent ones do not.

If the DVLA has not updated their records before the police requested the keeper details then you do not appear to have a defence. You need to check your v5 when your details were live - check the date at the bottom of page 2 in DD MM YY format to the right of documentation ref.
andy_foster
QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 19:04) *
Bought current car, 10 October, offence took place under 3 weeks later, but Police say they wrote to keeper of vehicle, within 2 weeks - probably used car dealer where I bought car from.

Surely if that was the case, I would have received something in the post before Mid Jan? And if not, surely I was in the right to return letter advising politely, it was out of date and I wasn't no paying the fine.

Today I receive a letter saying I will receive summons to court in due course. Now, if was me driving, but on advice of these, and other forum I returned letter stating ODD

Whose right, and whose wrong?

Do I still have the chance to pay £100.00 and receive 3 points without it going to court


Firstly, on behalf of the thousands of grammar Nazis currently throwing things at their computer screens, it's "who's right" (who is right) not "whose right". Where there is a word which would otherwise have an apostrophe, but does not to avoid confusion with an otherwise identical word which does (its and it's, who's and whose, etc.) the abbreviated word is the one that retains the apostrophe, not the possessive word.

The relevant statute (as regards the service of NIPs, nothing to do with grammar or spelling) is sections 1 and 2 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.
The police have to serve a NIP on the driver or the person registered as the keeper of the vehicle within 14 days, unless it was not reasonably practicable for them to ascertain the details of either in time to serve a NIP within the 14 days.

However, knowing what the law says is of limited use without knowing what the relevant facts are.

As you bought the car from a dealer, it is unlikely that he was ever registered as the keeper. What should have happened is that when he bought the vehicle, the seller should have sent off the yellow slip and the vehicle would then show as being "in trade" with the seller's details showing as being the previous keeper. When you bought it, the dealer should then have sent off the relevant paperwork and when processed by the DVLA you would show as being the registered keeper.

If the DVLA database (or the PNC copy) showed the previous owner as still being the keeper when the police looked up the details, arguably he would still have been the person registered as keeper even though he no longer owned the vehicle, so a NIP served on him within the 14 days would have satisfied the requirement. Alternatively, if the meaning of "person registered as keeper" has a narrower meaning (excluding a person who is no longer the keeper but is still shown on the register as being the keeper), unless the police had any reason to believe, within the time required to serve the NIP, that that person was no longer the registered keeper, the reasonable practicability clause would save them.

However, if the database showed the vehicle as being in trade, and if the police decided that that somehow absolved them of the requirement to exercise reasonable diligence in trying to ascertain the driver's details, and if they could have gotten your details from the MIB database (insurance), then I would say that you probably have a good defence.
Jlc
Andy should have reiterated that the above won't be a defence to a failing to furnish driver details charge.

Also, what's ODD? The best I could find was Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
andy_foster
Andy doesn't play the "let's repeat the same question asked previously and which hasn't been answered as the OP has not been on the site since before the first time it was asked" game favoured by some of the regulars.

DiscoDave
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 20:22) *
Andy should have reiterated that the above won't be a defence to a failing to furnish driver details charge.

Also, what's ODD? The best I could find was Oppositional Defiant Disorder.


Sorry meant OOD, as in Out of Date

Also, thanks for replies, but Im still confused as to whether I have a case. Will check V5 in 10mins and report back
DiscoDave
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 19:20) *
QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 19:04) *
Do I still have the chance to pay £100.00 and receive 3 points without it going to court

Almost certainly not. Did you name the driver?

Only the 1st NIP has the 14 day restriction - subsequent ones do not.

If the DVLA has not updated their records before the police requested the keeper details then you do not appear to have a defence. You need to check your v5 when your details were live - check the date at the bottom of page 2 in DD MM YY format to the right of documentation ref.


I have two (one sent with DL SURNAME and FIRST NAME MIDDLE NAME and SURNAME)

Looks like;

06 11 17 and
13 11 17

(so I take it as 06 and 13 November 2017)

Does that help?
peterguk
QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 21:27) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 19:20) *
QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 19:04) *
Do I still have the chance to pay £100.00 and receive 3 points without it going to court

Almost certainly not. Did you name the driver?

Only the 1st NIP has the 14 day restriction - subsequent ones do not.

If the DVLA has not updated their records before the police requested the keeper details then you do not appear to have a defence. You need to check your v5 when your details were live - check the date at the bottom of page 2 in DD MM YY format to the right of documentation ref.


Looks like 13 11 17 (so I take it as 13 November 2017)

Does that help?


So you became RK after the speeding event. In which case, your NIP is unlikely to be the first in the chain.
Jlc
Well it confirms your details wouldn't have been returned. The straightforward 14 day defence isn't there. The 'in trade' angle is harder to find out.

Sorry to sound like a broken record but was the driver named?

QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 21:27) *
06 11 17 and
13 11 17

There's only one date - it's to the right of 'Doc Ref No'.

QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 21:29) *
So you became RK after the speeding event. In which case, your NIP is unlikely to be the first in the chain.

Not quite - the OP became the RK from the date of sale notified but the DVLA takes time to update their records. Assuming the DVLA (PNC) enquiry was made before the updates then a previous keeper or 'in trade' marker would be returned.

But I agree it seems this wasn't the 1st NIP.
DiscoDave
They sent me two V5's

1 with my Initials and Surname ONLY on 6/11/17
then another with my FULL NAME on 13/11/17

I bought vehicle on 10 October, and picked it up and drove it away the following day. Whilst I WAS the driver at time of offence. I still have a [photo] copy of the NIP received last month, which I sent back [original] which is when i quoted the 14 day period thing.

Hope that helps
peterguk
QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 21:51) *
Whilst I WAS the driver at time of offence. I still have a [photo] copy of the NIP received last month, which I sent back [original] which is when i quoted the 14 day period thing.


And you have received a CoFP since naming yourself as the driver?
Jlc
Ok, it is clear that the records weren't updated when they accessed them. So the 14 days doesn’t apply.

But it's still not clear if you named the driver or not, and signed? If you didn't then you will have committed a more serious 6 points offence.
DiscoDave
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 21:53) *
QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 21:51) *
Whilst I WAS the driver at time of offence. I still have a [photo] copy of the NIP received last month, which I sent back [original] which is when i quoted the 14 day period thing.


And you have received a CoFP since naming yourself as the driver?


Whats CoFP?. What I got initially was (and I quote from letter) NOTICE OF INTENDED PROSECUTION - REQUEST FOR INFORMATION TO IDENTIFY DRIVER

QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 21:59) *
Ok, it is clear that the records weren't updated when they accessed them. So the 14 days doesn’t apply.

But it's still not clear if you named the driver or not, and signed? If you didn't then you will have committed a more serious 6 points offence.



When you say 14 days doesn't apply - does that mean I don't have a case?

Whilst I've said I was the driver, this is what I sent back to Police

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I write to acknowledge receipt of your Notice of Intended Prosecution (above-referenced) dated 30 January 2018 and received on 1 February 2018.

I reject the NIP on the grounds that it was sent to me after the 14 day period required to issue a NIP by law. You will be aware that the 14 day period begins from the day after the alleged offence.
I received the NIP on 1 February 2018 and according to the NIP, the date of the offence was 27 October 2017.

Please find enclosed a copy of the NIP enclosed, with the date that the alleged offence took place highlighted.

It is clear from the above that the NIP arrived too late and therefore, is invalid. In light of this, I respectfully request that you drop the case against me.

Thank you for your cooperation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've not once said there, I am not paying the £100 fine
peterguk
You have no late NIP case. Shame you didn't come here before responding.

CoFP is Conditional Offer of Fixed penalty. My bad for forgetting you'd received a summons, so ignore my reference to CoFP.
DiscoDave
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:11) *
You have no late NIP case. Shame you didn't come here before responding.

CoFP is Conditional Offer of Fixed penalty. My bad for forgetting you'd received a summons, so ignore my reference to CoFP.


I did look on here, and other forums, found a template and changed to suit my issue.

So, where do I stand. Dont really wanna go to court?
peterguk
QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:13) *
Dont really wanna go to court?


What charge/s are on the summons?
DiscoDave
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:14) *
QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:13) *
Dont really wanna go to court?


What charge/s are on the summons?


Its not a summons?

Its a letter from Police saying, saying they responded to RK with 14days and because Ive rejected the NIP, they are going to send a Summons in due course?

If the dealership responded to the NIP as they should have, how did it take til end Jan to reach me?
Jlc
There is no summons yet - see opening post.

In terms of the 14 days the 'simple' defence does not exist. The keeper details were updated by the DVLA after the Police queried the records.

Andy has aluded to a more involved situation depending on what data was returned. If a real contact was returned then the Police would have used those details to commence the procedure. Finding this out may be difficult.

But it's still not clear if the driver was named to the necessary requirement. Was the driver unequivocally named and the document signed? (Filling in their form usually works best for this)

QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:17) *
If the dealership responded to the NIP as they should have, how did it take til end Jan to reach me?

It's possible the first NIP went to the previous person keeping the vehicle and then they named the dealership. And then the dealership named you.
peterguk
QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:17) *
Its not a summons?


Yep, mis-read.

You'll have to wait for the summons and see whether you've been charged just for speeding, or they have also charged you with FtF (depending on whether you named yourself unequivocally as the driver or not.

Depending on the above, you may not have to attend court.

In any case there will be costs and surcharge to add to fine and points.
DiscoDave
this is what i got, and sent back quoting the 14 day thing



then I got this..



sorry for poor quality
peterguk
There is nothing more to do until you receive the summons/SJPN.
DiscoDave
Can I not call and offer to pay £100
Jlc
Did you fill in the boxes and sign? I think this is the 3rd time of asking.
DiscoDave
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:34) *
Did you fill in the boxes and sign? I think this is the 3rd time of asking.

Sorry, No - nothing, simply sent it back with covering letter (my address was this) stating 14 days
Jlc
Then the summons will likely be for the failing to furnish (s172) offence. The obligation to name the driver remains regardless of any 'late' NIP. This is a 6 points offence and large fine. A MS90 endorsement code which will impact insurance.

There's a long shot they'll dual list with the speeding offence and you should be able to 'plea bargain' for the lessor offence. But let's see what the summons/SJPN has on it. (You will need to attend court unless you want 9 points)

It's way past the 3 points £100.
peterguk
QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:35) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:34) *
Did you fill in the boxes and sign? I think this is the 3rd time of asking.

Sorry, No - nothing, simply sent it back with covering letter (my address was this) stating 14 days



If you did not name yourself as the driver, expect 2 charges (see above) on the summons. Failing to furnish which carries 6 points and hefty fine, and speeding. Technically, there is no evidence of the speeding, but they normally add it.

You will need to attend court to dig yourself out of the hole you have expertly dug.

Jlc
You may wish to get on the blower tomorrow morning to see if they'll accept the nomination. (Very long shot)
DiscoDave
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:39) *
Then the summons will likely be for the failing to furnish (s172) offence. The obligation to name the driver remains regardless of any 'late' NIP. This is a 6 points offence and large fine. A MS90 endorsement code which will impact insurance.

There's a long shot they'll dual list with the speeding offence and you should be able to 'plea bargain' for the lessor offence. But let's see what the summons/SJPN has on it. (You will need to attend court unless you want 9 points)

It's way past the 3 points £100.


when you say large fine? what are we talking
southpaw82
About 150% of your weekly income.
DiscoDave
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:44) *
About 150% of your weekly income.


payable at £1 week?

thats 10 years lol
Jlc
Large is relative. But somewhere around £500 usually. (Depends on your earnings but the offence is around 150% weekly income [min £120 used], costs of £85 for guilty plea (or £620 for not guilty) and surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30). A guilty plea sees a 33% credit on the fine.

...but hopefully there's a better way out.
DiscoDave
Cheers All

Will ring them in morning and explain I wasnt trying to get out of paying the £100 as such, just that it was out of date.

QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:46) *
Large is relative. But somewhere around £500 usually. (Depends on your earnings but the offence is around 150% weekly income [min £120 used], costs of £85 for guilty plea (or £620 for not guilty) and surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30). A guilty plea sees a 33% credit on the fine.

...but hopefully there's a better way out.

such as what mate?

and how has it taken 3 months to get from Police, to Dealer, back to Police then to me?
Jlc
Try reading my posts. wink.gif

Call them first thing tomorrow and act contrite.

If they refuse (after all the s172 offence seems complete) then you'll have to wait for the court paperwork.
The Rookie
You really need to call them, you've messed this up big style and need to start filling that particular fresh hole back in.

Even if you had a 14 days defence (which it appears you almost certainly don't) you've thrown it away now by not complying with the S172 request requiring you to name the driver, a little knowledge can be a lot more dangerous than none!

Its possible in a fit of pique they may summons you for just the S172 leaving you no options at all and a large fine and a hefty insurance increase over the next 5 years.

Grovel, fall on your sword, admit terminal stupidity, whatever it takes to persuade them to accept a late nomination and give you a CoFP (or at least just summons for speeding), don't try and justify it at all, you need them to feel some empathy for you now.

QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 23:48) *
just that it was out of date.

As it (almost certainly) wasn't, telling them it was is not going to help! And as its nothing to do with you committing the criminal offence relating to the S172 request its not relevant, the aim is to fill your hole in, not make it deeper.
DiscoDave
Ive got a letter ready in relation to the letter I received last night. Is it better/easier to just post off next day delivery so I get there within 28 days of original letter, or shall I ring first?
Jlc
The 28 days started when you received the request - you said mid-Jan so I would assume you have already missed the deadline?

I would ring first and see what they are prepared to do.
Colin_S
QUOTE (DiscoDave @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 22:48) *
Cheers All

Will ring them in morning and explain I wasnt trying to get out of paying the £100 as such, just that I mistakenly believed it was out of date but now realise that was a huge mistake on my part and I wish to rectify the situation.


Just reiterating what others have said...
DiscoDave
Well, I took the advice, and gave them a call

Explained situation, and the fact i wasnt really trying to avoid paying, but that I was merely stating the fact about the 14 day period. I told her I was ready to post the form back accepting the charge of £100 + points

Lady checked computer and said as papers had not been prepared by court and said to get form posted today... so off I trot, (or drove, within speed limits), to the nearest PO, and send it registered signed for post! biggrin.gif
Jlc
Result! It really is...
NeverMind
With the luck you are having today, I hope you bought a lottery ticket on the way home!
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