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apr8778
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2018
Date of the NIP: - 41 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 42 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A1 - Colsterworth to, Great Ponton - A1 - Barrowby Thorns
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - First of all I bought the car that day (I know, ridiculous) so I am guessing this is why the NIP didn't arrive until 6 weeks later, due to the change of ownership, so I don't imagine I can dispute the 14 day rule.

Today I got 2 NIPs.
Both offences on the A1 dual carriageway, national speed limit.

1st - Colsterworth - 21:11 - 85mph
2nd - Barrowby Thorns - 21:15 - 79mph

I was aware that I had been flashed from the 2nd one at the time, but I had no idea of the first one.

I would like advice on how I should approach this, I am aware that if two offences occur within a short space of time on the same road with the same speed limit, it is possible to get this classed as one offence.

So I'm thinking, is the best approach to accept them both and have the chance of either 3 points and a speed awareness course, or 6 points worst case scenario.

Or try to challenge it as being one offence, and have the potential of a speed awareness course and 0 points, 3 points if they accept it's 1 offence with no course, or 6 points if the reject and no course offered.

All help appreciated.




NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 15:03:58 +0000
notmeatloaf
Since that stretch of road is uninterrupted dual carriageway and therefore it is likely your speed did not dip below 70mph between the offences you have a very strong case for them to be treated as one offence.

Enclose both S172 requests in the same envelope with a polite letter asking for them to be considered as one offence. You want to keep them on side so do not demand anything. Keep copies and get proof of posting. They usually seem to oblige and you will get an offer for a speed awareness course if you have not done one in the last three years. Otherwise 3pts/£100 fine.

In the unlikely event they refuse you could either accept the extra 3pts and fine or take it to court. But cross that bridge if you ever have to come to it.
apr8778
Thanks for the reply

In this letter, do I try to show that I know it's quite common for this type of thing to be considered one offence, rather than just look like I'm trying my luck?

The Rookie
You can (should) only be punished once for an offence, if this is a single offence then you should only be punished for it the once! Some camera teams display a degree of common sense, others can be rather anal.
apr8778
Hello guys, I have drafted a short letter I am going to send back along with the 2 NIPs.

I would appreciate any advice/changes to the letter below, which would help me be successful in this appeal.

Cheers


Dear Sir/Madam
I enclose this letter with regards to the accompanying NIPs for offences committed on the 13/01/2018. While I take full responsibility for these offences I would like to ask, and very much appreciate it if you would consider them as one single speeding offence, being on the same uninterrupted dual carriageway, with a continuous national speed limit and just 4 minutes, on an empty road at 9pm on I feel I have a reasonable case with this request.


Sincerely


NAME
nosferatu1001
Devils advocate hat on - so it being an empty road at night makes it OK to speed?
The Rookie
Indeed, stick to legal points, not excuses.
apr8778
OK point taken.

I was trying to think of a way to say "it's likely I was speeding for the whole thing" without saying it.
notmeatloaf
As always keep it simple.

Dear plod,

Regarding the two enclosed NIPs I would kindly ask you to consider them as one offence. There is uninterrupted grade separated dual carriageway between the locations and my speed would not have dropped below the limit between the times alleged.

Love and kisses,

apr8778
122basy
QUOTE (apr8778 @ Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 15:52) *
OK point taken.

I was trying to think of a way to say "it's likely I was speeding for the whole thing" without saying it.

Despite what some people say about the staff in these offices I rather think they will be able to work out what you are saying.
notmeatloaf
QUOTE (122basy @ Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 17:18) *
QUOTE (apr8778 @ Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 15:52) *
OK point taken.

I was trying to think of a way to say "it's likely I was speeding for the whole thing" without saying it.

Despite what some people say about the staff in these offices I rather think they will be able to work out what you are saying.

Seeing as time and time again on here when someone has disputed an offence in an ambiguous way it has been referred to court, it is to the OPs advantage that it is clear he is disputing it only as a continuous offence.

What you "rather think" will be irrelevant to the OP if they have to waste time and money in court.
dusty22
I had a similar incident last summer when I was charged with speeding twice in 5 minutes but not on a dual carriageway. Like you I wrote a letter with the NIPs but received 2 separate charges. I decided to engage solicitors who managed to make a case with the prosecutor who eventually decided to drop the second charge. It took a while but was successful in the end. I did have to pay solicitors fees of £800 some of which I can now reclaim. They had a couple of arguments but the main one was that it was 2 offenses on 1 occasion which equates to 1 offense.

It will depend on how far above the speed limit you were traveling but it might be worth this approach. One other tip was when I renewed my insurance it was bizarrely cheaper when I had 2 offenses on 1 day rather than 1 but that might not still be the case.

My post is below if you want more details. The solicitors' names are Patterson Law.

Good luck.
apr8778
Got a reply this morning.

Your vehicle was detected as speeding on the A1 Northbound on two occasions on the 13th Jan, by two separate safety camera devices. Although the offences occured only 4 minutes apart, they are quite distinctly two separate offences, which need to be deal with individually.

I've been offered a speed awareness course for the one doing 79mph at 21:15, and 3 points and a fine for the 84mph at 21:11.

I feel like I'm being hard done by here, but it's not such a bad result all things considered.
cp8759
You could take the speed awareness course for the first offence, plead not guilty to the second, and argue in court that it's a single offence and as you've already been punished for it it would be an abuse of process to allow the Crown to prosecute you for the same offence you have taken a speed awareness course for. The obvious case to be made is that, if a police officer had followed you in an unmarked car and stopped you at the time, you would have been reported for a single speeding offence, not two.
TheDisapprovingBrit
Before pleading not guilty to one offence though, use Google Maps to figure out the distance between the two cameras, and what speed you would have had to be doing to cover the distance in the times given. If they're so close that it would take less than 4 minutes at 70mph, then your speed must have dropped below 70mph at some point, which is evidence that two separate offences were committed. Equally, if your average speed is around 80mph, that would indicate that your speed was fairly constant between the points and reinforce your case that only one offence was committed.

Edit: A very quick check between the two nearest junctions (not camera to camera) shows a distance of around 7 miles. Assuming the times were 21:11:00 and 21:15:59 (so 5 minutes rather than 4) the average speed works out at 84mph, which seems to support your case - double check the distance and take your own measurements though.
Jlc
QUOTE (apr8778 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 12:14) *
they are quite distinctly two separate offences

Are they? Obviously, they have taken a view but I believe a court would likely take a different one (as detailed in recent posts).

But the hassle factor involved may outweigh the 'easy option'.
Churchmouse
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 12:47) *
You could take the speed awareness course for the first offence, plead not guilty to the second, and argue in court that it's a single offence and as you've already been punished for it it would be an abuse of process to allow the Crown to prosecute you for the same offence you have taken a speed awareness course for. The obvious case to be made is that, if a police officer had followed you in an unmarked car and stopped you at the time, you would have been reported for a single speeding offence, not two.

Except that taking a speed awareness course is not "punishment"... Maybe accepting a fixed penalty would qualify, and pleading guilty in court certainly would. Do you feel lucky...?

--Churchmouse
andy_foster
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 12:47) *
You could take the speed awareness course for the first offence, plead not guilty to the second, and argue in court that it's a single offence and as you've already been punished for it it would be an abuse of process to allow the Crown to prosecute you for the same offence you have taken a speed awareness course for.


The problem (as I might have mentioned from time to time) is that there is no basis in law for these speed awareness courses, and consequently no statutory bar on prosecution. If the police had promised not to prosecute if the OP paid them a bribe and completed the course, then it would clearly (or at least very strongly arguably) be an abuse of process to prosecute if he did the course. However, such a promise is not being made in any real sense.

If we can assume that this was likely to be a single offence which merely happened to have been observed twice, then I would be minded to take the COFP and then rely on the statutory bar on prosecution.
cp8759
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:50) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 12:47) *
You could take the speed awareness course for the first offence, plead not guilty to the second, and argue in court that it's a single offence and as you've already been punished for it it would be an abuse of process to allow the Crown to prosecute you for the same offence you have taken a speed awareness course for.


The problem (as I might have mentioned from time to time) is that there is no basis in law for these speed awareness courses, and consequently no statutory bar on prosecution. If the police had promised not to prosecute if the OP paid them a bribe and completed the course, then it would clearly (or at least very strongly arguably) be an abuse of process to prosecute if he did the course. However, such a promise is not being made in any real sense.

Is it not? I would have thought the paperwork would include some sort of assurance that, providing the course is satisfactorily completed within the appropriate time-frame, the police will not prosecute. Nobody would do a course if they thought the police might prosecute anyway. IMO an abuse of process application is likely to succeed, as I take the view that, if the court agrees it is a single offence that has been observed twice, it would offend the court's sense of justice and propriety (in the ex parte Bennett sense) to allow a prosecution to go ahead.
notmeatloaf
You are assuming a court would recognise what is the definition of an extrajudicial process, albeit one orchestrated by the police.
andy_foster
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 21:48) *
I would have thought the paperwork would include some sort of assurance that, providing the course is satisfactorily completed within the appropriate time-frame, the police will not prosecute. Nobody would do a course if they thought the police might prosecute anyway. IMO an abuse of process application is likely to succeed, as I take the view that, if the court agrees it is a single offence that has been observed twice, it would offend the court's sense of justice and propriety (in the ex parte Bennett sense) to allow a prosecution to go ahead.


As the police have issued 2 NIPs and told the OP that they are treating it as 2 separate offences (because they caught him twice), it would be very difficult to argue that the OP believed they would not prosecute if he completed a course.

southpaw82
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 21:48) *
I take the view that, if the court agrees it is a single offence that has been observed twice, it would offend the court's sense of justice and propriety (in the ex parte Bennett sense) to allow a prosecution to go ahead.

That would probably require a trip to the High Court.
cp8759
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 23:01) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 21:48) *
I take the view that, if the court agrees it is a single offence that has been observed twice, it would offend the court's sense of justice and propriety (in the ex parte Bennett sense) to allow a prosecution to go ahead.

That would probably require a trip to the High Court.

Quite possibly, I'm not saying it's a good idea, just a possibility.
southpaw82
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 23:02) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 23:01) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 21:48) *
I take the view that, if the court agrees it is a single offence that has been observed twice, it would offend the court's sense of justice and propriety (in the ex parte Bennett sense) to allow a prosecution to go ahead.

That would probably require a trip to the High Court.

Quite possibly, I'm not saying it's a good idea, just a possibility.

I often phrase my advice to clients in that manner.
notmeatloaf
"How much money are you prepared to throw at this?"
apr8778
Thanks for the replies people.

In all honesty I'm not sure I'm going to take it any further. In my mind I know this should be fairly clear cut, you won't find a better example of this type of situation, but I'm thinking the hassle and financial cost is just too much to bother with.
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