Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Parking ticket received, machines not working.
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
Pages: 1, 2
sabs
Hiya,

I received a ticket at the beginning of September for parking without a valid pay and display ticket. The machine went working and there was a pay by phone option, however I didn’t haven’t phone.
My 3 year old was starting a new school and I was taking her for the first time to start settling, I also had my 7month old son with me.
The next machine was too far for me to walk with both kids, as I suffer from severe Rgeumatoid arthritis.

I appealed the initial PCN which was rejected, and am now waiting for the letter for me to appeal to the adjudicator. It doesn’t help that I had a hire car company at the time so have had to already pay out due to administration fees.

The following day my husband took my daughter for settling and he walked the whole road, the side roads and not 1 machine was working. He walked an unreasonable distance to get a ticket to display. I called the council to let them know about their machines to which I was told all the machines around Newham have the same problem.

I asked why people are given tickets if the council are aware of this problem, to which she said there is an alternative which is to pay by phone or to park elsewhere.

I had intentions to pay for my ticket, I ensured I had cash and change on me to do this, but unfortunately my phone was left behind and rushing with two young kids.

Currently I am being asked to pay the full amount of £135.00 , and really do not want to pay if I have a case to fight this .
stamfordman
Do you have a notice to owner reissued in your name from the hire company? What have you paid so far - just an admin fee?

Post the correspondence - use a pic site such as Imgur or Flickr to host pics of letters.
sabs
The hire car company said they have informed the council of my details, however I have not yet received anything to take the appeal forward.
I have paid £35 to the hire car company already and now just received another letter to pay £135.00c however they do state to let them know if I am wanting to dispute the PCN.
I have lost the PCN but will upload what documents I have
Mad Mick V
I would have guessed Redbridge but Newham's just as bad. Their rationale is to let the ticket machines become unusable and rely on pay by phone only (not customer friendly but it saves them money). What do they spend their penalty charge income on?

We need to have a Google Street View of the parking bay and need to determine if the parking places order says pay by phone if a meter is kaput.

Mick
stamfordman
The note from Enterprise does not give you any recourse to appeal - they are paying the PCN at full rate as the owner and passing the charge to you under the contract terms.

Is there anything else from Enterprise that gives you indication they will transfer liability?
Mad Mick V
None of the signs in that road say anything about PBP (and the meter is not a "traffic sign"):-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/St+Step...#33;4d0.0377027

Mick
sabs
https://www.flickr.com/gp/155513302@N05/JjGTm1

Sorry missed end of letter out

There are no signs of PBP, the only indication was on the ticket machine itself. But I wasn’t aware of this change until that day when I went to pay for a ticket .
stamfordman
OK sorry I see Enterprise has done something with council - this should be to reissue the PCN to you under legislation that allows this to happen. It could take some time - you could call council and ask.

Also ask Enterprise if they have withdrawn the payment and will only charge you the admin fee.
sabs
They are closed now. I will call both enterprise and council on Monday.
Do I have a case though. ! is It worth the fight?
stamfordman
QUOTE (sabs @ Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 13:58) *
Do I have a case though. ! is It worth the fight?



If you have lost the discount option there is no more to pay to take it to the tribunal and I think you have a good case.
sabs
Ok.
I will drafty letter to the adjudicator once I receive the paperwork and will put on here for advice? Would you say that’s he next step?
stamfordman
QUOTE (sabs @ Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 14:08) *
Ok.
I will drafty letter to the adjudicator once I receive the paperwork and will put on here for advice? Would you say that’s he next step?



No, there will be a formal appeal to the council first. But let's see if indeed you'll be getting the chance.
sabs
I have made the formal appeal to the council and it got rejected. Please see forst letter .
stamfordman
QUOTE (sabs @ Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 14:14) *
I have made the formal appeal to the council and it got rejected. Please see forst letter .


It's a two stage process - the first one is an informal challenge. A formal appeal is to the notice to owner, which was sent to Enterprise when you didn't pay the PCN.
sabs
Ok cool. Will call both on Monday and take it from there.
Is there anything different I should say in my formal
Appeal?
sabs
So I called enterprise who have emailed me a letter of authority.
They said they send a transfer of liability to the council which got rejected and they received a notice to owner so now they will send a cheque and take money out of my account. I explained I am appealing and not to send them any cheques . They say once appeal is won they will refund. I was battling with this for nearly an hour, however she says that’s procedure.
Do I just write to the council with this letter of authority indicating I wish to appeal and that I didn’t receive formal appeal process paperwork?
I am concerned if they pay this will squash it?


DancingDad
Get back onto Enterprise.
In writing, specifically instruct them not to pay as you are challenging the NTO using their written authority.
IF they pay, the case will be closed.
That is simple fact.


Mad Mick V
In a legal sense, if the Council has rejected Enterprise's transfer of liability documents, this means Enterprise have no authority to ask you to pay the PCN. They have to have proper documentation to do this under The Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000.

First get copies of the Council's rejection from them because this is key evidence.

Then go back to them and fight on that basis and say if they take any money from your credit card you will raise a case against them in the Small Claims Court.

Mick
sabs
Just got off the phone. They saying there’s nothing they can do. They have paid and I can still appeal with the letter of authority they have sent to me . They will be sending me the councils rejection letter via email.
They said they tried to transfer and council rejected and hey don’t understand why they rejected so it was in their best interests to pay before he fine went to debt collectors.
What do I do?
The Rookie
Try re-reading what has been put, the reason they paid was due to their own failure to transfer liability in the prescribed manner, a process they (as an allegedly reputable and large hire company) should be fully conversant with. You cannot be held liable for their own failings, additionally its something they have charged you an admin fee to do and have failed to fulfill that obligation you paid for. Get back onto them, know what you are complaining about and lean on them hard, there is most certainly something they can do!
DancingDad
You've been stitched by Enterprise.
And as such I would be getting everything I could to argue the toss with them.
As MMV says, get a copy of the council rejection of the hire ground.
It may be worth phoning the council for this.
Get all you can from Enterprise, copy of NTO, their challenge to council and council NOR.
The latter may allow you to appeal to adjudicators with the authority that Enterprise have given but will likely be an uphill battle as it has been paid.
sabs
Good afternoon,

As previously explained, we would have already made payment for this penalty charge notice. The case will be closed due to payment, but the letter of authority will still allow you to appeal this fine. If the fine is cancelled, Enterprise will receive a refund. If you are charged by Enterprise before that time, we will issue a refund once you forward your notice of acceptance to us.

Kind regards
hcandersen
With respect, we're in danger of mixing contract law with parking regs.

'In a legal sense, if the Council has rejected Enterprise's transfer of liability documents, this means Enterprise have no authority to ask you to pay the PCN. They have to have proper documentation to do this under The Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000.'

Sorry, MMV, but this is incorrect. Whether an uninformed person in the council, whether with or without sufficient evidence from Enterprise, rejected grounds for hiring agreement does not affect Enterprise's position vis a vis the hirer. Enterprise's authority to charge is their contract conditions, not the decision of a council officer.

Whether Enterprise's action is lawful is another matter.

OP, you received a PCN and submitted a challenge which was rejected. You decided to not pay the discount as a direct consequence of which the keeper was sent a NTO ( which you knew would occur).

You also knew your contract conditions.

IMO, the legal issue is, as always, their obligation to take reasonable steps in the circumstances to mitigate their losses. This includes making reps to transfer liability to the hirer because the NTO did not have a discount option.

Which they did.

These were rejected.

They charged your account (for how much? Was the discount re-offered? Who knows?) under the mandate provided for in your contract.

Were they entitled to do so?

Who knows, we haven't seen the evidence.

What is the evidence?

Their reps and the authority's rejection.

I suggest you get them.

OP, forget any direct contact with tne council, you are out of the equation AS ARE PARKING REGS, at least for the moment.

This is a contract issue!
sabs
I have asked enterprise for both NTO AND NOR
DancingDad
QUOTE (sabs @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 13:15) *
I have asked enterprise for both NTO AND NOR

And a copy of their challenge ??
sabs
This is a joke, enterprise are saying they have nothing to provide me with except the penalty charge. She said the transfer of liability and representation was a mail out and they don’t have a copy of that, and they also do not have a copy of the notice of rejection.
I kind of lost it and said well you haveno evodence to prove you have actually done anything you are saying you have. I have been charged an admin fee , for which you cannot provide evidence that you actually conducted . I said I wish to take this are further and if you have no evidence to prove you did your bit at your end you have no case to stand for.
She said she spoke to the council and they have said they didn’t see the transfer of liability and that although the charge has escalated they won’t charge £195 and will keep it at £130.

I am currently waiting to speak to somebody senior .
sabs
No luck. They have sent me the transfer of liability document but no representation, and they will be asking council for the notice of rejection again as they have lost it.
They also said they spoke to the council, who have said I am able to appeal with letter of authority and if the appeal is upgeld they will refund the charges.
hcandersen
Seems as if your pressure applied at the right points is paying off. Keep at it.

They also said they spoke to the council, who have said I am able to appeal with letter of authority and if the appeal is upgeld they will refund the charges.

When you have this in writing, fine. Until then it comes under the umbrella of hearsay.

And try and conduct your discussions in writing, at least confirm phone conversations by email. But don't leave things as tel calls.
sabs
I have all of the above in writing. I have asked the rep to contact me after asking the council for another NOR , I have asked to be updates.
I will write to the council today and ask for all paperwork so that I can appeal
hcandersen
If you have the key matters in writing, may we seem them please.

At present the LAW does not permit you to make reps (in your name) to the council IRRESPECTIVE of any letters to the contrary.

You may only make reps if they issued a NTO in your name, to do which they would have had to cancel the one to Enterprise.

This is the law and the authority cannot purport to change this without consequences, in this case dealing you a winning hand.

So do you have a NTO in your name from the authority?
DancingDad
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 11:38) *
If you have the key matters in writing, may we seem them please.

At present the LAW does not permit you to make reps (in your name) to the council IRRESPECTIVE of any letters to the contrary.

You may only make reps if they issued a NTO in your name, to do which they would have had to cancel the one to Enterprise.

This is the law and the authority cannot purport to change this without consequences, in this case dealing you a winning hand.

So do you have a NTO in your name from the authority?


IMO as this has passed NTO stage and is at appeal stage, not quite as cut an dried as that.
There has been an NTO, challenged on hire ground and rejected.
From the NOR the hire company can appeal to adjudicators.
Or the hire company's authorised representative can act on their behalf.
Which would be Sab as they have that authority in writing.

My issue is whether or not the appeal will go ahead as the PCN has been paid.
Obviously depends to a great extent on whether or not the council object.

But I see no reason why an appeal cannot be registered, grounds cited (rejection of hire ground for starters but need to see what Enterprise sent) and take each step as it comes.

We do need to see all paperwork you have to work out what grounds to use for appeal.
hcandersen
As I posted, the OP cannot do anything in their name and until we see paperwork we cannot be certain what's what.

Over to you OP.
sabs
https://www.flickr.com/gp/155513302@N05/718kih

https://www.flickr.com/gp/155513302@N05/mV97j5

https://www.flickr.com/gp/155513302@N05/043586

Please see attached the LOA, and NOT I received from enterprise.
I have not yet heard in regards to NOR.

I have included the email convo below aswell.

Good afternoon,

As previously discussed, we received a notice to owner and transferred liability. We make representations via post so we don’t hold any copies of the transfer of liability. I have spoken to the council regarding this and they have said that if you would like to appeal then you can still make a representation using the letter of authority and if the appeal is successful then they will refund the charges to us.

Kind regards
cid:image001.gif@01D2AEC3.7DDDA860
Olivia Mundabi
Citations Coordinator
UK & Ireland Traffic Violations Division

01784428010 Department
E219V0@ERAC.COM
Enterprise House
203 London Road
Staines-upon-Thames
Surrey
TW18 4HR
enterprise.co.uk



From: Sabiha
Sent: 19 February 2018 13:07
To: Mundabi, Mbumba O
Subject: Re: Letter of Authority - URGENT

Hi Olivia,

Could you please send me the Notice to Owner you received from the council in regards to this PCN. Could you also send me the Notice Of Rejection from the council.
I need the following documents before I Pursue my case.

Thanks


On 19 Feb 2018, at 12:12, Mundabi, Mbumba O <Mbumba.O.Mundabi@ehi.com> wrote:

Good afternoon,

As previously explained, we would have already made payment for this penalty charge notice. The case will be closed due to payment, but the letter of authority will still allow you to appeal this fine. If the fine is cancelled, Enterprise will receive a refund. If you are charged by Enterprise before that time, we will issue a refund once you forward your notice of acceptance to us.

Kind regards
<image001.jpg>
Olivia Mundabi
Citations Coordinator
UK & Ireland Traffic Violations Division

01784428010 Department
E219V0@ERAC.COM
Enterprise House
203 London Road
Staines-upon-Thames
Surrey
TW18 4HR
enterprise.co.uk



From: Sabiha
Sent: 19 February 2018 10:03
To: Mundabi, Mbumba O
Subject: Re: Letter of Authority

Hi Olivia,

I am instructing you not to pay the charges for this PCN.
I am letting you know in writing that I am int he process of appealing this fine and if you pay the case will be closed.
The council has informed me.

I am giving you written notice to instruct you to not make the payment.

Please confirm you understand .

Thanks

Sabiha

hcandersen
The EVIDENCE in the form of the letter dated 19 Feb from Enterprise to the authority advises them that the letter is not reps.

The authority are entitled to take this at face value and file it. They may then issue a charge certificate to Enterprise.

Strike 1, Enterprise are at fault and have no authority to ask or require the authority to contact you or you them or for them to deal with you.

Strike 2, you cannot instruct Enterprise to not pay the penalty.
sabs
So what does that mean?
I have written to the council asking for all paperwork so I can start the appeal process.
hcandersen
You cannot.

The law only allows the recipient of a NTO to make reps.

There can only be one NTO in effect at any one time, and it's with and in the name of Enterprise.

It would be wholly improper and IMO unlawful/ultra vires for the authority to consider reps from you. There is no precedent as far as I am aware for an authority to consider reps from a third party which, if rejected, would result in them issuing a so-called NOR, but it cannot be one because your name is not on the NTO.

The ONLY route is for Enterprise to make reps - see the Appeals regs:

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected;
and
(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered; (no such reps were made and cannot now be made)
(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.



And a letter stating it's not reps but contact Mr Smith is not 'in the form and manner ..in the notice to owner'.

It is for ENTERPRISE to mitigate their losses, not to pass the buck/baton to you and blame you if it all goes wrong.
sabs
Ok. So what do I do about the money they will be taking out of my account to pay for this?
I have already sent a letter to the council, that cannot be stopped now. As I was under the impression the LOA will allow me to appeal?

I am confused as to what I now need to do
hcandersen
Can we be cleat.

Have Enterprise paid the penalty charge?

If not, then play a straight bat. You have written to the council so I would now respond to Enterprise...

Thank you for you letter dated 19 Feb.

As my hire contract is with you, I have carried out your instructions to write to the council, see copy of my letter. However, I would advise you that this is contrary to parking legislation because only the recipient of the NTO may make representations ( I have enclosed an extract of the relevant regulations). I do not know how the authority will respond to your extra-procedural letter or my letter but would advise you that I cannot be held liable by you should the authority disregard this correspondence and possibly send you a charge certificate after the expiry of the 28-day payment period as they are entitlted to do.

Hugs
DancingDad
I am going to disagree with HCA here.

There is an NOR though we have not seen it.
That gives Enterprise or their representative opportunity to appeal to adjudication.
Enterprise have IMO given you that authority.
Use it.
To appeal to adjudicators, not to council.

Enterprise have not covered themselves with glory and there are many issues that may well allow a contractual argument with them.
But this is not PCN it is contract.

The PCN side has a route, IMO use it.
sabs
The first rep said the payment will be made, second rep said th cheque has already been sent.
She said the charge will automatically be taken out of my card account, but his hasn’t happened yet.

I will email the above to them later today. Thanks for your help .
hcandersen
There cannot be a NOR.

What we have seen is Enterprise's letter which is clear: this letter is not reps[for the purpose of transfer of liability]

This has a legal connotation which has nothing to do with appealing to an adjudicator,

And it's the most current correspondence,
And as it is to the authority the OP may presume that it is from a competent person within Enterprise,
And IMO the OP may act on it (instead of the ping-pong emails ) as being Enterprise's current position - they're not required to go back to the Ark and assess this in light of preceding info,
And if the s**t subsequently hits the fan, then the OP must get their position clear with Enterprise now.
DancingDad
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 10:58) *
There cannot be a NOR. ........


According to earlier posts, Enterprise tried to transfer liability and this was knocked back by Newham.
Only method of transferring officially is via a challenge to NTO.
Only method of knock back, is an NOR.

Yes, OP may have misunderstood and yes, I agree with you on getting the facts and case straight with Enterprise.
But am not as relaxed on dismissing what seems to have happened because we have not seen the paperwork.
hcandersen
we have not seen the paperwork.

Too right and the basis of so many long threads.

The only written evidence we have seen from a competent officer of the company to the authority states that 'this isn't reps' which clearly implies reps have not been made previously.

I can't unravel this, all I know is that as far as evidence in the context of the contract is concerned IMO the OP should act on the letter dated 19 Feb. No contractual fault could attach to them for doing so, and as regards parking regs the OP has no standing.
sabs
The Below is what I got back from rep this morning g.
I think my best bet will be to wait for councils response?

Good morning,

You will have to explain the grounds you wish to appeal on, attach all your evidence and the letter of authority to the council.

Kind regards
cid:image001.gif@01D2AEC3.7DDDA860
Olivia Mundabi
Citations Coordinator
UK & Ireland Traffic Violations Division

01784428010 Department
E219V0@ERAC.COM
Enterprise House
203 London Road
Staines-upon-Thames
Surrey
TW18 4HR
enterprise.co.uk



From: Sabiha Daria [mailto
Sent: 22 February 2018 19:48
To: Mundabi, Mbumba O
Subject: Re: Letter of Authority

Hi Olivia,

Thank you for you letter dated 19 Feb.

As my hire contract is with you, I have carried out your instructions to write to the council, see copy of my letter.
However, I would advise you that this is contrary to parking legislation because only the recipient of the NTO may make representations ( I have enclosed an extract of the relevant regulations).

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and
(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered;
(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

I do not know how the authority will respond to your extra-procedural letter or my letter but would advise you that I cannot be held liable by you should the authority disregard this correspondence and possibly send you a charge certificate after the expiry of the 28-day payment period as they are entitled to do.

I am also still awaiting the copy of the Notice of Rejection that the council sent to you.
I would be grateful if you can provide this as soon as possible.

Many Thanks
Sabiha
hcandersen
No. You must deal with correspondence in a timely manner and do not leave matters open-ended.

Dear Ms Mundbi,

Thank you for your email dated ***** in response to my email dated ****.

I can only restate the position regarding national parking regulations as they apply to England which is that only the recipient may make representations against a Notice to Owner. This cannot be unilaterally amended by me, Enterprise or the authority. I ask you to take advice on this if it would help and to accept that I am being as co-operative as I can be bearing in mind that, as regards parking regulations, I have no legal standing: only Enterprise may make representations and the only means by which liability for the PCN may be transferred to me is for you to make representations to this effect, I am afraid that a letter from you stating that it should not be considered as representations but that the authority should accept representations from me is wholly extra-procedural and improper.

I would again respectfully suggest that either you use my previous draft as your representations or simply seek to transfer liability under the applicable grounds.
sabs
Will do.
sabs
Enterprises response ...

Good afternoon,

The letter of authority is a standard procedure which we give to all our customers if they wish to make an appeal. As you are third party, you can only appeal the fine if you are permitted to by the registered keeper. The letter of authority is permission from the registered keeper that you can appeal this penalty. It is recognized by issuing agencies as we are a hire firm. We do not make appeals on behalf of customers, it is the customers responsibility to appeal this with the letter of authority. If the customer does not appeal this then they are still liable for the charges.

Kind regards
cid:image001.gif@01D2AEC3.7DDDA860
Olivia Mundabi
Citations Coordinator
UK & Ireland Traffic Violations Division

01784428010 Department
E219V0@ERAC.COM
DancingDad
That's fair enough but I for one haven't a clue where we are in process.
I thought an NOR had been served but not sure now.
SAB, any idea ?
Or could you confirm with Enterprise what steps they have taken and what they have received?
And dates of Notices, clock is ticking and I'd not like it to run out
sabs
So.. enterprise said they provided the authority with a NOT , not sure if date. And they said authority sent them a NOR in return. They have since made the payment to the council for the fine as they were worried it would escalate.

I have written to the council with the LOA asking for paperwork in order for me to appeal. Have not heard from them yet.

I have asked Rnterprose for the dates.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.