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MrKing
Hi there,

I am seeking some help on my options in regard to a parking fine from APCOA acting on behalf of Gloucestershire County Council.

The story so far:
In December my car was hit by a council owned dustbin lorry, they accepted full liability (I wasnt even in the car at the time!) and whilst the car was in for repairs I had a courtesy car. I have a permit for where the road I live down but unfortunately a few days into having the car I received a parking fine despite leaving a note explaining the situation.

I ofcourse appealed this decision due to the fact I pay over £100 a year to park down this road, I possibly replied in anger and should of maybe of seeked advice first.

This is what I sent:

Hi

PCN: GD61701424

Vehicle registration: KY06 OYE/VE17EYJ

Address: XXXXXXXXX Cheltenham GLXXXXX


I am writing to inform you that I believe I have wrongly received a parking charge down Winchombe Street, Cheltenham today. I am a resident of Winchombe Street and have a parking pass for the car KY06 OYE.

However I am currently driving a courtesy car due to one of Cheltenham Borough Councils Dustbin Lorry's hitting and causing significant damage to my car. The current registration is VE17EYJ. I have been leaving a note on the dashboard stating this is a courtesy car for KY06 OYE for the last week with no problems but I believe the note has slipped off the dashboard and been missed.

I do not believe this parking charge to be fair especially as I'm in the courtesy car through no fault of my own (I wasn't even in the vehicle when it got hit!). So if the charge could be overturned I would be grateful.


Regards


XXXX XXXXX

I received this reply today:
Dear Sir/Madam,

Please find attached response to your challenge via the appeals team.

Please note this decision was made by the appeals team and not the customer service team, the appeals team cannot be contacted and if you wish to talk to someone you can call 0345 319 9631 to speak to a customer service agent.

PLEASE DOT NOT RESPOND TO THIS EMAIL ADDRESS DIRECTLY AS IT IS NOT MONITIORED - ALL RESPONSES MUST BE SENT TO pcn.gloucestershire@apcoa.com




Kind regards,

Hayley Scully|

Dear Mr King,


Re: Informal challenge of Penalty Charge Notice – Traffic Management Act 2004.
PCN No : GD61701424
Date of Issue : 18 December 2017
Date of Contravention : 18 December 2017
Vehicle Registration Number : VE17EYJ
Location of Alleged Contravention : Winchcombe Street

Thank you for writing to us.

We have carefully considered what you have said but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

You were issued a PCN for not having a Pay & Display ticket that was both valid and clearly displayed. Even if you have a Pay & Display ticket, you have to display it so that a Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) can see all its details. You were also able to pay to park by phone or online; however, the CEO's handheld computer showed no valid period bought by phone or online.

I appreciate that you left a note in your windscreen. We are happy for drivers to leave notes, as long as the purpose is simply to let CEOs know about something, not an attempt to avoid parking within the rules. (If this was allowed, many people would abuse it).

We have made checks but our records show no payment, or attempted payment, linked to your details such as your vehicle registration number that you supplied us with in your correspondence. Therefore we are satisfied that your PCN was issued correctly and still stands.

The enclosed photos help to show why your PCN was issued.



You have these choices:
You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
You can pay 50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay SECURE ONLINE PAYMENTS via our website: www.gloucestershire.apcoa.co.uk
BY PHONE Credit / Debit card payments may be accepted by phoning the touchtone local rate telephone payment line on 0345 319 9631, available 24 hours.



BY POST Cheques or Postal Orders payable to: APCOA Parking with the PCN number written on the reverse of your cheque/postal order. Return the payment slip with your payment to Gloucestershire Parking, PO Box 1010, Uxbridge, UB8 9NT. If a receipt is required a stamped addressed envelope must be enclosed. Please note post-dated cheques will not be accepted. Do NOT send cash or make credit card payment by post



Yours sincerely,



Gloucestershire Parking


Any help would be greatly appreciated, as its on behalf of the council I assume I cant just ignore it?
stamfordman
They haven't addressed your challenge at all it seems.

Can you post the PCN and the council pics. Use a site such as Flickr or Imgur.
MrKing

https://imgur.com/duIZpgk

https://imgur.com/IMJq5qJ

https://imgur.com/Lltyitd

https://imgur.com/7LXSkJi

https://imgur.com/Xptq8ZZ


QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 14:56) *
They haven't addressed your challenge at all it seems.

Can you post the PCN and the council pics. Use a site such as Flickr or Imgur.



https://imgur.com/duIZpgk

https://imgur.com/IMJq5qJ

https://imgur.com/Lltyitd

https://imgur.com/7LXSkJi

https://imgur.com/Xptq8ZZ
PASTMYBEST
As per SM they have not addressed your challenge. This must include the consideration of mitigating factors.

IMO the PCN is also invalid as it does not accurately convey the information required a 3(2)(b)(ii) of the appeals regulations

"ut that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner."
MrKing
So what would my next step be? I'm not to hot on all the legal jargon to feel confident enough to write a further appeal. I'm also not even sure who I'm meant to address it too! Thanks for taking the time to help.









MrKing
*bump* any advice please?
disgrunt
Why not contact the insurance company and ask for the pcn amounts to be added to your claim.

stamfordman
Problem you have is you are not the keeper so the next stage will go to the garage or whoever is the keeper. They are then responsible for the penalty. If you want to take it further you'll need to talk to them.

You can try writing to the council again to say they've not considered your challenge, emphasising that you'd been OK with a note and your permit to explain the courtesy car up until then. But they don't have to reply before issuing a formal NTO to keeper.
cp8759
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 21:45) *
Problem you have is you are not the keeper so the next stage will go to the garage or whoever is the keeper. They are then responsible for the penalty. If you want to take it further you'll need to talk to them.

Unless it's a hire car, in which case liability would revert to the OP.

@MrKing, it looks like technically they have you banged to rights on the contravention, however, you have them banged to rights over not following two procedural improprieties, as follows:

1) As PMB says, the PCN does not convey the message that "if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner."

2) They have failed to consider your representations, the rejection letter doesn't even mention the circumstances you have raised in your informal representations and from this it follows that the decision maker has either not considered the point you have raised, or he has failed to understand your informal representations (in which case he could not have considered them). Failing to consider representations is a procedural impropriety which means the PCN must now be cancelled.

If the car was given to you under a hire or lease agreement, eventually the council will serve a Notice to Owner on you and you can use the above reasons to appeal. Otherwise, you will need to talk to whoever the owner of the car is and see what they want to do about it.
stamfordman
It's a courtesy car the OP had for a few days.

cp8759
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
It's a courtesy car the OP had for a few days.

I've had a courtesy car for a few days in the past and it was a hire car with a hire agreement, and it has the standard transfer of liability stuff in it.
hcandersen
It's the wrong contravention!

Their sign shows a shared use restriction (permit or P&D), the PCN only allows the defence of 'here's my parking ticket' when in law there are two permissible defences: here's my P&D or here's my permit!

If you got to adjudication, you would win IMO (and we can throw in failure to consider as well: whether the PCN was issued correctly is not the determinant factor, it's but one factor, the duty of the authority is to consider all factors in your reps, which clearly they've not done).

But IMO, the wrong contravention would win on its own,your problem is the hurdle presented by the process in that in the first instance the NTO would not come to you. OP, you should tell the garage what's happened - that you've received a PCN (I think you could truthfully add 'in error' - but that the council would send a NTO to them. What's their normal policy?

What exactly does your garage courtesy car paperwork say?
MrKing
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 16:15) *
It's the wrong contravention!

Their sign shows a shared use restriction (permit or P&D), the PCN only allowsthe defence of 'here's my parking ticket' when n law there are two permissible defences: here's my P&D or here's my permit!

If you got to adjudication, you would win IMO (and we can throw in failure to consider as well: whether the PCN was issued correctly is not the determinant factor, it's but one factor, the duty of the authority is to consider all factors in your reps, which clearly they've not done).

But IMO, the wrong contravention would win on its own,your problem is the hurdle presented by the process in that in the first instance the NTO would not come to you. OP, you should tell the garage what's happened - that you've received a PCN (I think you could truthfully add 'in error' - but that the council would send a NTO to them. What's their normal policy?

What exactly does your garage courtesy car paperwork say?


Thankyou for all your help, I'm at work atm but will find the paperwork when I get home. NTO I assume means notice to owner? Also not sure on what OP means. Sorry I'm new to this.

I can add that the hire car was paid for by the insurance company (Zurich) of the rubbish truck that hit me. I'm not sure if this is relevant but just incase it helps.
John U.K.
OP - Original Poster - you.
stamfordman
QUOTE (MrKing @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 17:03) *
Thankyou for all your help, I'm at work atm but will find the paperwork when I get home. NTO I assume means notice to owner? Also not sure on what OP means. Sorry I'm new to this.

I can add that the hire car was paid for by the insurance company (Zurich) of the rubbish truck that hit me. I'm not sure if this is relevant but just incase it helps.



Yes NTO is the formal notice to owner. OP= you (original poster)

So not a courtesy car from garage but from insurance company - that may make it more awkward.
cp8759
MrKind you're the OP as you posted the opening post. NtO means Notice to Owner. Do you have the hire agreement?

Sadly we know that some hire companies will pay PCNs prematurely before you've had a chance to appeal, if they do that your right of appeal is extinguished so we need to avoid that if at all possible (If this happens, you would have to reclaim the money from the hire company, which is possible but could be a real palava).

Therefore if/when the hire company gets a NtO it is really important to make sure you're onto them to make sure they follow the correct procedure.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 17:13) *
MrKind you're the OP as you posted the opening post. NtO means Notice to Owner. Do you have the hire agreement?

Sadly we know that some hire companies will pay PCNs prematurely before you've had a chance to appeal, if they do that your right of appeal is extinguished so we need to avoid that if at all possible (If this happens, you would have to reclaim the money from the hire company, which is possible but could be a real palava).

Therefore if/when the hire company gets a NtO it is really important to make sure you're onto them to make sure they follow the correct procedure.


If you intend to make reps against the NTO Write to the hire company and tell them. Explain that they should transfer liability using the ground available on the NTO You will almost certainly be charged an admin fee, depending on what it is may sway your decision
MrKing
I've annoyingly misplaced the agreement. I have found the invoice, but I doubt that tells you much.

cp8759
I'm sure if you contact them they should be willing to provide you with a copy.
hcandersen
OP, there's no garage, there's a vehicle hire company (Enterprise), your insurer and you. The invoice strongly suggests that there is a hiring agreement between the registered keeper, Enterprise, and Zurich, your insurer, but not you. You are the user authorised by the hiree, you are not the hiree.

So you need to contact your insurer because the garage could only pass liability to the hiree, in this case your insurance company.

Personally, I think you are stuck, but maybe you have paperwork to the contrary. There cannot be pass-the-parcel i.e. Enterprise to Zurich to you.

PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 22:35) *
OP, there's no garage, there's a vehicle hire company (Enterprise), your insurer and you. The invoice strongly suggests that there is a hiring agreement between the registered keeper, Enterprise, and Zurich, your insurer, but not you. You are the user authorised by the hiree, you are not the hiree.

So you need to contact your insurer because the garage could only pass liability to the hiree, in this case your insurance company.

Personally, I think you are stuck, but maybe you have paperwork to the contrary. There cannot be pass-the-parcel i.e. Enterprise to Zurich to you.


The OP is named as the hirer, so is that insurance co just pick up the tab?
stamfordman
Probably not worth pursuing - it's only a £25 PCN and Enterprise (hire company) will exact at least a £15 fee. But from the hire doc I reckon anyway it will go to Zurich unless Enterprise has the OP's credit card.
cp8759
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 23:09) *
Probably not worth pursuing - it's only a £25 PCN and Enterprise (hire company) will exact at least a £15 fee. But from the hire doc I reckon anyway it will go to Zurich unless Enterprise has the OP's credit card.

Maybe, maybe not. I've been in this situation before and I had to sign the rental agreement when I got the car, this is irrespective of the fact that the 3rd party insurer was paying the cost of the rental. Some of the rental companies will also refund the fee if the appeal is ultimately successful.
ford poplar
OP said Zurich was the Council's Insurer picking up the total hire cost. Maybe Council will pay their own Penalty but that leaves OP with their own outstanding PCN.
OP contact your Ward Cllr and ask for their help to resolve this sorry situation.
disgrunt
QUOTE (ford poplar @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 04:31) *
OP said Zurich was the Council's Insurer picking up the total hire cost. Maybe Council will pay their own Penalty but that leaves OP with their own outstanding PCN.
OP contact your Ward Cllr and ask for their help to resolve this sorry situation.


Only problem is that they are different councils. Cheltenham's bin lorry hit the OP but Gloucestershire council are the enforcement authority.
hcandersen
OP's problem has nothing directly to do with them being in a road traffic collision, it's because they used a vehicle where it was not permitted. We can try and dress this in the most favourable clothes, but these fundmentals still apply as does the OP's lack of control over what happens next, all they can do is to try and exercise some influence over the course of events.

Neil B
Not read fully but just wondering why visitor permits were not used? Or did I miss.
MrKing
I have the found the agreement, worst case scenario I'll start a gofundme campaign tongue.gif







stamfordman
Seems you gave your Visa debit card so you have a direct relationship with Enterprise. If they just pay the PCN at NTO stage at £50 and bill you plus an admin fee of say £15 then you're down £65. If they get it reissued to you you'll still have an admin charge I expect and will have to spend time on an appeal with £50 in play although council may reoffer discount if you lose.

Personally I would pay the £25 and move on although you have the options of writing to the council again now, and asking Enterprise what they'll do with the NTO.
MrKing
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 09:46) *
Seems you gave your Visa debit card so you have a direct relationship with Enterprise. If they just pay the PCN at NTO stage at £50 and bill you plus an admin fee of say £15 then you're down £65. If they get it reissued to you you'll still have an admin charge I expect and will have to spend time on an appeal with £50 in play although council may reoffer discount if you lose.

Personally I would pay the £25 and move on although you have the options of writing to the council again now, and asking Enterprise what they'll do with the NTO.


Ok I think I am left with little option but to pay the fine, I still think its awful practice to ticket some one who pays £100+ per year to park down said road. Thanks for all the help, I will atleast not be making this mistake again!
cp8759
QUOTE (MrKing @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 12:20) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 09:46) *
Seems you gave your Visa debit card so you have a direct relationship with Enterprise. If they just pay the PCN at NTO stage at £50 and bill you plus an admin fee of say £15 then you're down £65. If they get it reissued to you you'll still have an admin charge I expect and will have to spend time on an appeal with £50 in play although council may reoffer discount if you lose.

Personally I would pay the £25 and move on although you have the options of writing to the council again now, and asking Enterprise what they'll do with the NTO.


Ok I think I am left with little option but to pay the fine, I still think its awful practice to ticket some one who pays £100+ per year to park down said road. Thanks for all the help, I will atleast not be making this mistake again!

For what it's worth, I would have appealed it as a matter of principle, but it's your money.
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