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r.angel
Hello, I am new to this forum so please don't get cross with me if I am repeating something. Thank you.

I tried to avoid getting 3 points and paying speeding fine by sending a PACE witness statement to Camera Enforcement Office of ESSEX POLICE.

I got this reply:

I refer to your letter received in this office on 19 May 2006

In reply I would advise that under section 12 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 any response by a driver to a notice is admissible in any subsequent court proceedings. This is true of any signed responce whether it be section 9 statement, letter or the form provided.

The judgement in FUNKE V FRANCE 1993 was finally dealt with by the Privy Council and it was decided that there was no breach of the right to a fair trial. Section 172 provided for the putting of a single, simple question, the answer to which could not itself incriminate the suspect since it is not by itself an offence to drive a car.

The case of MAWDESLEY V THE CHIEF CONSTABLE OF CHESHIRE 2004 is also quite clear that form is admissible as a confession and that C.10.1 of the Code does not impose an obligation in such circumstances.

Consequently I enclose new forms for completion and await your reply.

------------
Enquiry Support Supervisor
ESSEX POLICE

Would anyone please tell me if I still have any chance of getting out of it?

Many thanks.
Mika
QUOTE (r.angel @ Wed, 7 Jun 2006 - 14:21) *
Would anyone please tell me if I still have any chance of getting out of it?

If you’re up for a fight, keep all the correspondence in a safe place but do not respond to this letter. wink.gif
r.angel
Hello Mika,

thanks. Would you be able to let me know what is likely to happen?

Cheers
flashman
Either they are accepting the PACE letter as evidence of the identity of the driver, or not. They seem to want it both ways.

If the forms you have been sent are fresh NIP/s.172 forms then you can safely ignore them.

If the forms are a conditional offer of fixed penalty then they have accepted the PACE letter and, unless you want to accept the offer, you ignore that as well.
crystal
Hi,

Can you do the read this first stuff as it is really relervant.

You have a typical response so just ignore it

Regards
crystal

oops too slow !
r.angel
Hi Flasman and Crystal,

I am lookin at the forms sent along with the letter but cannot clearly tell the number of the form. How do I confirm that it is either NIP/s172?

And Crystal - the first sentence in your reply confuses me a little bit. Would you, please explain what you mean? Sorry, English is not my mother tongue.

Cheers
flashman
Is the form like the very first one you received, asking for the identity of the driver?
r.angel
Hi,

yes, I think it is. Cannot tell for sure because I sent it of along with my reply.

Hold on, I just noticed a note: YOUR LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY UNDER SECTION 172 OF THE ROAD TRAFFIC ACT 1998 IS EXPLAINED ON PAGE 2. That must be it then :-))).

I have also noticed that there is a hyphen (-) missing between my two surnames. They wrote it as one continuos word. Would that help at all?
flashman
The missing hyphen will not help, I'm afraid.

However, it sounds to me as though you have been sent replacement NIP and S172 forms. This is good news!

If you have followed the PACE procedure correctly, you have already complied with your legal duty under S172 of the Road Traffic Act.

Just sit tight and do nothing. It looks as though you could easily win this!
r.angel
That sound wicked!!!!!

How do I calm my boyfriend down, though? He thinks I should just get the 3 points and pay the fine. Do I really stand a good chance? Neither one of us have been in this situation before so we don't know how thinks are done.

Do you know what is likely to happen after I don't reply? I would just like to know what is going to happen.

You are great ( thanks for you patience ;-) )

Many thanks
flashman
Well, you may well receive a court summons for (1) speeding and (2) failing to provide driver's details. If they do not accept the PACE letter as evidence of the driver, then there is no evidence of the driver and the speeding charge cannot proceed. As for the charge of failing to provide, the JONES case is the authority for the law that, in providing the driver's details, you do not have to use the police's form.

You will need a strong nerve to go through with this, but you will receive plenty of support from people on this site.

As Crystal said, you should really post the details of the offence as requested in the READ THIS FIRST section of this site.
chadders
QUOTE
How do I calm my boyfriend down, though? He thinks I should just get the 3 points and pay the fine.


Point out that you're having a bit of fun, it's nothing to do with him anyway - and besides, even at the last minute (if) it goes to court you can plead guilty and the fine would basically be the same (plus a £35 - £45 court cost).
r.angel
I thing he is a bit worried as it was his car I was driving. He doesn't want his name part of this.
Mr Rusty
QUOTE
I thing he is a bit worried as it was his car I was driving. He doesn't want his name part of this.


It is very important that you do the NIP wizard. Was the NIP that you originally replied to addressed to *you* or to *him*. If it was to him, but you have replied, and all correspondence is now coming to you, things could be very interesting indeed. If the original was to him and he named you, and you subsequently got your own NIP then he is out of the loop now and it is just you and the scamerati.

Please confirm exactly what has taken place so far.
r.angel
The original was sent to him and he named me. I then got my own NIP to which I replied by sending the PACE witness statement. (Copied it from MCN)

After reading READ THIS FIRST I realised I didn't keep one of the envelopes from the Essex police and I did not send the PACE statement by Special Delivery. Will this matter?
crystal
Hi,

Please do the NIP wizard and post all the information it gives. It will, in no way affect your b/f by nominating you he has discharged his responsibilities. This is between you and the scammers so make your own decision.

It not too much of a problem you don’t have proof on delivery as they are referring to you letter so you know they have it. However ensure all further correspondence is send special delivery and you keep copies and receipts etc.

As Mika says if you want to fight ignore it and future conditional offers and reminders until you get a summons or 6 months is up. They will try to get you pay before court, as once it gets to court the scammers do not get your fine.

To go to court will require a time, effort and a bit of bravery on your part but it can be done with help from here.

If you win you have no fine and no points, if you loose it you get the points and may extra 100 quid over the 60 quid fixed penalty so is it worth it to you ?

Regards
crystal
r.angel
What is the name of the Constabulary? Essex Police
Date of the offence: 13/04/06 (e.g. 18/4/06)
Date of the NIP: 10/05/06 ( 24/04/06 in my partners name)
Date you received the NIP: 12/05/06
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important):
B 186 South Road, South Ockendon, near the junction with Mar Dyke Valley Golf Club
Was the NIP addressed to you? Yes (after my partner named me as driver)
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? First

If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? I was driving my partners car
How many current points do you have? 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons
Judging by the angle from which the picture was taken there must have been a van parked on the other side of the road. The camera was aimed at the direction I was traveling so it shows the rear end of the car. They say the speed of the vehicle was 39 mph in a 30 mph limit.
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