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ExtinctWarrior
Hello everyone.

I am 18 years old, had my licence for a year and have never been given any charges, let alone stopped by the police. I will cut to the chase and let you know what is going on.


So basically a month ago I got a call from my uncle who runs a chip-shop and asked if I wanted to come over and have dinner with him, me being hungry agreed and went. When I ate my food and was about to leave he asked if it was fine to assist him and drop off an order for a customer as it was very busy in the shop. The customer already paid for their order so all I had to do was give it to them and go home. Since he constantly gave me free food I felt obligated to return the favour and do so. On my way to the customer, I was driving and noticed in the distance a police van made a U-turn facing me. Not sure if he was after me i took a right turn and parked as i get very panicky when followed by police. The van followed me into the corner and pulled right in front of me and turned on its sirens.

Not knowing what to do i got out my car and put my hands in the air thinking they would tase me laugh.gif laugh.gif or something. The officer immediately started shouting at me saying he would charge me for evading police. He then explained that he took the U-turn because he "thinks" i was doing 60mph in a 30 zone which is impossible as i was absolutely doing 28mph!As i tried to explain myself he said if i opened my mouth again he would charge me for violating a police officer!!! Not knowing what to do i just kept silent as he kept yelling in his walkie-talkie.

He then went to my tires and just by eyesight he said all my tires were bald and he is gonna charge me a total of 12 points! First of all, it was 12 am on a dark road so that is impossible, and second, i passed my MOT a month ago with no advisories and lastly i had my tires checked a week ago and they were still road legal! He then kept walking around my car looking at different parts of it then decided to finally use HIS FINGER to measure the tires and according to him, the two front tires were not road legal. He just smirked at me and said: "Congratulations you lost your license". I tried again to explain they were fine and he shouted at me again that HE WILL file a charge against me for 'violating a police officer'. All i could do was cry to myself with nothing to do.

He then asked what i was doing at this time and i explained i was just going to drop an order off for my uncle as a favor then going home. Now he went back in his van for a few minutes then came out asking for my insurance details and driving license. I gave him my driving license and Insurance name and he went back in the van. He then came out and said i must give him my keys because he was seizing my vehicle. I was so confused and asked why, and of course, again he said the whole 'violating a police officer' excuse. He later said i doing deliveries ALL DAY and therefore my policy doesn't cover me for business users. I kept saying i was not doing deliveries or receiving cash and was simply doing a favor for my uncle but he wasn't having any of it.

He then said i should arrange my own transportation and left me stranded on the streets and i had no money for a bus or anything. I was lucky to call my cousin who came and picked me up and took me to another police station for advice. We stopped another police van and explained what happened and they said it was very harsh and was not the correct procedure at all.


So a few days later and after getting my car back and being £200 short, i made sure to video getting my car from the impound lot and let the worker there prove the tires were road legal. I then took my car to another garage for verification and they gave me a letter proving my tires were road legal.

Now a month later i am still waiting for my court summons to arrive. Im not sure what will happen at all, i am a careful driver who never gets into trouble and here i am maybe getting 12-18 points at my lisence because of a power tripping police officer. I have spoken to citizens advice and they said to wait for the court summons before taking action.


It should be noted my sister was with me in the car and manged to film the police officer being aggressive if that helps.

EDIT: My charges are according to the police officer are, 2 bald tires and no insurance.
peterguk
Right now there is little you can do.

You need to see what arrives in the post. They have 6 months to get a summons to you.

For future reference, don't do any more deliveries in your car for your uncle - paid or not, unless you have business insurance.

With regards to the insurance, it all boils down to whether your insurance company would have insured you or not had they known the circumstances. If they're happy to say in writing you were covered whilst delivering food, great. If not then not great.
cp8759
I'm pretty sure he'll just go for the no insurance, he has no need to use the bs tyre charges. But it looks like you're banged to rights on the insurance I'm afraid.
ExtinctWarrior
I had no idea that dropping off an order would result in my insurance being void. Fair enough if i was getting paid for it but i was just doing a favour for my uncle, just drop off an order and go home! When he mentioned business insurance i was really confused because i was not doing anything business related!
BaggieBoy
You were delivering an order for a business, that is business related on the face of it.
Logician
Goodness knows what "violating a police officer" is meant to mean, it sounds like a sexual assault. For future reference you get only points for the most serious offence if more than one offence is committed on the same occasion, unless the court very exceptionally decide otherwise. So you would only get 3 points however many tyres were bald, and no points for the tyres if you get 6 points for no insurance. It will be worthwhile explain to your insurance company that you obliged your uncle by making a delivery but it was a single occasion and you received no money for it, so it was entirely a social matter, and ask whether you were covered in those circumstances. Do not mention the free food. I am afraid the answer is still likely to be 'no' but it is worth asking the question.

Unfortunately if you do get 6 points your licence will be revoked and you will have to apply for a provisional licence and re-take your test, both parts, if you want to drive again. The real bummer though is that your insurance, no doubt already very high, will go through the roof. You are far from the first to be caught out for lack of the right insurance when making deliveries.
cp8759
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 00:07) *
Do not mention the free food. I am afraid the answer is still likely to be 'no' but it is worth asking the question.

Personally I wouldn't advise to withhold information about the free food, if it's the factor that tips the balance one way or the other (in terms of whether the insurance company will provide cover), the OP could be accused of making a fraudulent misrepresentation (No doubt the company will ask the OP if he received any consideration and free food would count as such), at worst it could be construed as PCOJ if he's trying to make it look like he had insurance cover, when in fact he didn't.
southpaw82
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 09:31) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 00:07) *
Do not mention the free food. I am afraid the answer is still likely to be 'no' but it is worth asking the question.

Personally I wouldn't advise to withhold information about the free food, if it's the factor that tips the balance one way or the other (in terms of whether the insurance company will provide cover), the OP could be accused of making a fraudulent misrepresentation (No doubt the company will ask the OP if he received any consideration and free food would count as such), at worst it could be construed as PCOJ if he's trying to make it look like he had insurance cover, when in fact he didn't.

Neither would I.
Colin_S
Did the garage that produced the letter regarding the tyres note the serial numbers of the tyres in the letter? Each tyre has a unique serial number and these should have been noted by the officer if he was going to charge you with that one.
Logician
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 09:31) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 00:07) *
Do not mention the free food. I am afraid the answer is still likely to be 'no' but it is worth asking the question.
Personally I wouldn't advise to withhold information about the free food, if it's the factor that tips the balance one way or the other (in terms of whether the insurance company will provide cover), the OP could be accused of making a fraudulent misrepresentation (No doubt the company will ask the OP if he received any consideration and free food would count as such), at worst it could be construed as PCOJ if he's trying to make it look like he had insurance cover, when in fact he didn't.


There was no bargain that he would receive free food in return for making a delivery, the OP went to have dinner with his uncle and was afterwards asked to do him a favour by making a delivery. It cannot be construed as any form of payment, the OP simply felt a sense of social obligation. To suggest that not mentioning he had dinner with his uncle before the delivery might amount to PCOJ is far fetched.

Incandescent
What are we coming to as a country when the police ruthlessly pursue something as trivial as this ?
peterguk
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 11:10) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 09:31) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 00:07) *
Do not mention the free food. I am afraid the answer is still likely to be 'no' but it is worth asking the question.
Personally I wouldn't advise to withhold information about the free food, if it's the factor that tips the balance one way or the other (in terms of whether the insurance company will provide cover), the OP could be accused of making a fraudulent misrepresentation (No doubt the company will ask the OP if he received any consideration and free food would count as such), at worst it could be construed as PCOJ if he's trying to make it look like he had insurance cover, when in fact he didn't.


There was no bargain that he would receive free food in return for making a delivery, the OP went to have dinner with his uncle and was afterwards asked to do him a favour by making a delivery. It cannot be construed as any form of payment, the OP simply felt a sense of social obligation. To suggest that not mentioning he had dinner with his uncle before the delivery might amount to PCOJ is far fetched.




OP was working for no return. Which still means he was working.

Bottom line - if insurance co. are happy to cover him whilst delivering food for his incle's bsiness, great.
Stoofa
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 11:41) *
What are we coming to as a country when the police ruthlessly pursue something as trivial as this ?


With over 11k posts I'm sure you must be aware of the "minor indiscretion" uncovers a whole multitude of offences.
I've got no reason to disbelieve the OP - I do have issue with how the whole encounter apparently "went down", but I wasn't there, I cannot cast an opinion.
But OP is stopped for suspected speeding, as so many are in the first instance, there is a question on tyre legality (if true, chance vehicle could cause an accident, causing harm to innocent people) and a definite question on legality of insurance - I'm pretty sure the police have heard it all before when somebody says "No, I never use my car to help with take-away delivery - this was the very first time I did it".
So police being sceptical and investigating further - surely this is nothing new?
Fredd
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 11:41) *
What are we coming to as a country when the police ruthlessly pursue something as trivial as this ?

If his insurer wouldn't have covered him in the event of an accident then it's not trivial, is it?
peterguk
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 11:41) *
What are we coming to as a country when the police ruthlessly pursue something as trivial as this ?


As trivial as no insurance?
cp8759
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 11:41) *
What are we coming to as a country when the police ruthlessly pursue something as trivial as this ?

You might not think it's trivial if he'd hit you or your car.
The Rookie
Unfortunately its common for unscrupulous delivery drivers to save on insurance when doing this sort of work by not having the proper insurance in place, the number getting caught suggests its a common problem and its also clear the Police are aware it is and are clamping down on it. While I'm not saying its the case here, I also wouldn't be surprised for many to have a planned story in place about it being a favour and the first time.....
thisisntme
Would there be any mileage in a SRNTE argument in court? Normally, it is cheaper to take the fixed penalty, but seeing as the OP will have his licence revoked, might it be worth a punt?
NewJudge
QUOTE (thisisntme @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 18:46) *
Would there be any mileage in a SRNTE argument in court?


What is SRNTE?
Slapdash
Special reasons not to endorse.

I have great sympathy for the op and hope it is resolved in his favour. He was doing a relative a small favour.

I have always had business use. For the odd occasion I may travel between offices. I still have it even though I am no longer working. E.g. I do a few hours admin for OH. I might post some letters or pick up some consumables. I dont think this is really business use. But just in case...

It is easy to say OP should have had wider use. But in my limited experience with stepson (19) it is simply impossible at that age. Sure sdp and commuting is fine, but beyond that it is really difficult.
Fredd
QUOTE (Slapdash @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:34) *
I have always had business use. For the odd occasion I may travel between offices. I still have it even though I am no longer working. E.g. I do a few hours admin for OH. I might post some letters or pick up some consumables. I dont think this is really business use. But just in case...

There's more than one kind of "business use" cover. The kind you're talking about, which is very cheap (or no extra at all) doesn't cover transporting goods or deliveries.
Slapdash
QUOTE (Fredd @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 20:15) *
QUOTE (Slapdash @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:34) *
I have always had business use. For the odd occasion I may travel between offices. I still have it even though I am no longer working. E.g. I do a few hours admin for OH. I might post some letters or pick up some consumables. I dont think this is really business use. But just in case...

There's more than one kind of "business use" cover. The kind you're talking about, which is very cheap (or no extra at all) doesn't cover transporting goods or deliveries.


I know that. My point was simply that moving out of the "simply" SDP +\- C box when 18 can be hugely difficult.

OP may possibly have done that.

Note to self. Don't ask my son to pop a 'puter in his boot from the lock up when he is visiting to save me picking it up.
ExtinctWarrior
So does anyone know what will likely happen in court? And also i tried applying for business insurance but was refused because i was too young :/
samthecat
QUOTE (ExtinctWarrior @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 15:06) *
So does anyone know what will likely happen in court? And also i tried applying for business insurance but was refused because i was too young :/


I would probably avoid mentioning that if you can. A cynic would ask why would you apply for the appropriate insurance if you didn't need it?

You don't want to give the impression you were aware of the insurance requirements but decided to ignore them.
Logician
The officer concerned does not decide what the charges are, if any, so you will have to wait for the summons/requisition to arrive which is likely to take some months, possibly up to six. Write to your insurance company as I suggested earlier. If they will not say that you were insured then the court is likely to conclude that you were not, so you might just as well plead guilty and benefit from some reduction in the fine and costs. You will presumably plead not guilty to the tyre offences if you are charged with those and there will be a short trial about those. if you are getting 6 points for no insurance you will get no more for the tyres even if you are found guilty. With 6 points your licence will be revoked but this is not a matter for the court and you can keep driving until the DVLA write to you.
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