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Kingsley01
Hi All;
I received a letter this year 03/01/18 informing me of a PCN incurred on 28/12/17 in our Cul-de-sac.

The parking conditions in our Close is so horrendous that during the evenings; a few cars over spill in to the garage grounds; this is usually not an issue as no cars are left on the grounds during the daytime.

I do suspect that one of the residents may be dishing out these tickets as I have in the past had a ticket issued just past midnight on the same grounds causing me to suspect that it was Fraudulent.

The street view link for the area of infringement can be found here:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Orchid+Rd,+London+N14+5HJ/@51.6365837,-0.1353144,3a,71.3y,89.62h,71.77t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sH-lk2LFFQ95Su10DGm3K2Q!2e0!3e11!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x48761903fdc435a3:0xa4d73e8731d93a4!8m2!3d51.6363755!4d-0.1355678)
I really appreciate your help with this one.

Kind Regards;

Kingsley.

PS: I couldn't figure out a way to attach the images so I have used my google photos app: https://photos.app.goo.gl/JXbHSP6cumhQTe7P2
Jlc
It's quite possible that it's a resident on a kickback.

Tickets can be issued without a PCN on the windscreen - and if they are seeking 'keeper liability' then they have to deliver it within 14 days. (For which they have)

Quite a litigious PPC so a court claim is possible.

It seems you are aware you shouldn't park on that private land. I presume you don't have a permit?

There are potential arguments about 'forbidding' contract but I wouldn't park there again unless you have authority.
Kingsley01
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 14:44) *
It's quite possible that it's a resident on a kickback.

Tickets can be issued without a PCN on the windscreen - and if they are seeking 'keeper liability' then they have to deliver it within 14 days. (For which they have)

Quite a litigious PPC so a court claim is possible.

It seems you are aware you shouldn't park on that private land. I presume you don't have a permit?

There are potential arguments about 'forbidding' contract but I wouldn't park there again unless you have authority.


It isn't clear how a permit could be obtained and the signage doesn't indicate so. I would be happy to obtain a permit otherwise.

Side question; is there any requirement for a band of time where parking restriction on private land can be imposed or is at land owner discretion?

QUOTE (Kingsley01 @ Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 15:48) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 14:44) *
It's quite possible that it's a resident on a kickback.

Tickets can be issued without a PCN on the windscreen - and if they are seeking 'keeper liability' then they have to deliver it within 14 days. (For which they have)

Quite a litigious PPC so a court claim is possible.

It seems you are aware you shouldn't park on that private land. I presume you don't have a permit?

There are potential arguments about 'forbidding' contract but I wouldn't park there again unless you have authority.


It isn't clear how a permit could be obtained and the signage doesn't indicate so. I would be happy to obtain a permit otherwise.

Side question; is there any requirement for a band of time where parking restriction on private land can be imposed or is at land owner discretion?


Thanks for your prompt reply; appreciate your help on this.
Is the cost being pursued reasonable?
Jlc
QUOTE (Kingsley01 @ Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 14:51) *
It isn't clear how a permit could be obtained and the signage doesn't indicate so. I would be happy to obtain a permit otherwise.

Side question; is there any requirement for a band of time where parking restriction on private land can be imposed or is at land owner discretion?

You may not be entitled to a permit? I presume this land has nothing to do with your property?

Totally at the landholder's discretion - the signs will convey those requirements.

QUOTE (Kingsley01 @ Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 14:51) *
Is the cost being pursued reasonable?

In short, probably. Most courts will be happy to follow the ParkingEye v Beavis judgment. Up to £100 for the core parking charge will likely be seen as reasonable.

Distancing from this (binding) Supreme Court judgment is possible but not always easy.
ostell
But the land is specified as an address on that street, which would appear to be council maintained. It would not be relevant land for the purpose of POFA. There is no period of parking on the PCN. Check if everything required in paragraph 9 of POFA is actually there.

If the road publicly maintained? Check with the council if unsure.

I can see signs on the garages, what do they say? Are they lit and readable in the dark?
Kingsley01
QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 18:56) *
But the land is specified as an address on that street, which would appear to be council maintained. It would not be relevant land for the purpose of POFA. There is no period of parking on the PCN. Check if everything required in paragraph 9 of POFA is actually there.

If the road publicly maintained? Check with the council if unsure.

I can see signs on the garages, what do they say? Are they lit and readable in the dark?


This is very helpful also.
- The signs are not lit or readable in the dark
- The address for the land is confusing as it's addressed 30-32 Orchid road whereas it's actually between 22 & 23 Orchid Road.
- Re: public maintenance of the road; Assuming by road you mean the land where contravention occurred; I am not sure who maintains it and if at all. What would be the impact if it were publicly maintained or not?

- I'll read the document you shared.

Much appreciated.
nosferatu1001
Well obviously if it is a council road, then no private parking firm can enforce their made up garbage there - they cannot contract to offer parking on a public road, thats up to the council to define.

So you go ask the council. Ask if the road is adopted (maintainable at public expense). Simple quetion, tell us the answer.
Jlc
The location given as a road but the land in question is off road. (i.e. the garages)

...but the question remains the same as to whether it's private land or not.
Kingsley01
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 11:38) *
Well obviously if it is a council road, then no private parking firm can enforce their made up garbage there - they cannot contract to offer parking on a public road, thats up to the council to define.

So you go ask the council. Ask if the road is adopted (maintainable at public expense). Simple quetion, tell us the answer.



Awesome. this is clear; i'll call the council let you guys know.
Thanks
nosferatu1001
But remember we talked about a road here
If the vehicle was not parked on the road but off to one side, then asking about the road will not help you.
ostell
But the relevant land quoted is 30-32 Orchid Close, which may be a public highway.
Kingsley01
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 14:53) *
But remember we talked about a road here
If the vehicle was not parked on the road but off to one side, then asking about the road will not help you.


OK; the vehicle was parked on the grounds of the garages not on the road. within the grounds of the garage the vehicle was parked next to the fence beside the houses in the picture if that helps.
ostell
QUOTE (Kingsley01 @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:22) *
OK; the vehicle was parked on the grounds of the garages not on the road. within the grounds of the garage the vehicle was parked next to the fence beside the houses in the picture if that helps.


We don't wish to know that, the NTK simply said 30 -32 Orchid Close. If they issue NTKs then they have to get it right.
Barkley
Looks Private to me - the address on the NTK will be reasonable to identify the land, so I doubt the Council will have anything useful to add. I believe the enforcement will be by the renters or owners of the garages accessed, and clearly if an unauthorised vehicle is preventing access to or in front of a garage, that will trigger the parking notice - irrespective of whether it was a staff member of the parking company or a resident on kickback.

It would be hard to miss the signage as it is clear there are some restrictions in force to prevent garage access being blocked - clearly it’s a problem, and that’s why this action has been taken. These appear private garages, so I don’t make the connection between Day/Night Parking if access is blocked then the garage owner cannot enjoy his property. It would be easier to park elsewhere and save the hassle.
ostell
QUOTE (Barkley @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:25) *
Looks Private to me - the address on the NTK will be reasonable to identify the land, so I doubt the Council will have anything useful to add. I believe the enforcement will be by the renters or owners of the garages accessed, and clearly if an unauthorised vehicle is preventing access to or in front of a garage, that will trigger the parking notice - irrespective of whether it was a staff member of the parking company or a resident on kickback.

It would be hard to miss the signage as it is clear there are some restrictions in force to prevent garage access being blocked - clearly it’s a problem, and that’s why this action has been taken. These appear private garages, so I don’t make the connection between Day/Night Parking if access is blocked then the garage owner cannot enjoy his property. It would be easier to park elsewhere and save the hassle.


If the signs can't be read then there can be no contract created and therefore there cn be no breach of contract.

The land on the Notice to Keeper has to be described accurately, a street address describes just that, a location in the street. According to the OP this was not even the correct location of the garages. If it for parking in the garages area it should have said land behind and adjacent to garages.....

Contact the council and see if Orchid Road is adopted.

It will be interesting to see the contract for parking enforcement on this one, especially if the road is adopted. Who is the landowner that is one side of the contract? Could be an over enthusiastic agent of the parking company and because it was dark picked the wrong location.
Kingsley01
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 11:49) *
The location given as a road but the land in question is off road. (i.e. the garages)

...but the question remains the same as to whether it's private land or not.


So I called the council and after 1 hour of holding and being passed around the last individual who had the the most up to date public maintained road database was not reachable. My first contact in the parking department believes the address stated on the pcn is public however couldn't confirm.

On visiting the council's website I found a database of highways and residential building etc of which Orchid Road was. See link

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3qSPToBD43KMLTWq1
ostell
Was What? What are the columns referring to? If it is indeed an adopted road and controlled by the council then write back to the people that issued the PCN stating that they appear to be operating on land that is adopted by the local authority and is therefore not relevant land for the purposes of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and you, the keeper, cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver. You do not expect to hear from them again.

The whole point of getting the location correct is that the NTK is being sent to the keeper and not the driver so this is possibly the first time the keeper knows about this and so needs to know exactly where the event occured. They can't now decide to reissue the PCN and add more details as this would take it past the 14 days.
Kingsley01
QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 18:38) *
Was What? What are the columns referring to? If it is indeed an adopted road and controlled by the council then write back to the people that issued the PCN stating that they appear to be operating on land that is adopted by the local authority and is therefore not relevant land for the purposes of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and you, the keeper, cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver. You do not expect to hear from them again.

The whole point of getting the location correct is that the NTK is being sent to the keeper and not the driver so this is possibly the first time the keeper knows about this and so needs to know exactly where the event occured. They can't now decide to reissue the PCN and add more details as this would take it past the 14 days.


Thanks for this. Really helpful.
PS: Column headers can be found here:https://photos.app.goo.gl/HF46uryvKQkMz2gW2
Barkley
There are two sets of garages at this locus - both off the road referred to. It is not unreasonable to use the nearest address to identify the location. Expecting the description to match the location is an irrelevance as the PCN was affixed to the offending vehicle leaving the transgressors in no doubt that unrestricted parking does not exist. Trying to fudge the issue with the council on a road that has no restrictions will be treated with the contempt it deserves. If parking is the issue it would make sense to remove the roundabout grass and increase parking spaces. I doubt parking on the roundabout would cause as much difficulty.

As for seeing the restriction - both sets of garages have clear daytime signage that can be seen on entry up the lane - I can’t vouch for streetlight illumination, but cars - presumably with their lights on - will illuminate the signage on entry.

As a resident, you can hardly claim ignorance - if the land isn’t yours, park where you can.
Kingsley01
QUOTE (Barkley @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 19:35) *
There are two sets of garages at this locus - both off the road referred to. It is not unreasonable to use the nearest address to identify the location. Expecting the description to match the location is an irrelevance as the PCN was affixed to the offending vehicle leaving the transgressors in no doubt that unrestricted parking does not exist. Trying to fudge the issue with the council on a road that has no restrictions will be treated with the contempt it deserves. If parking is the issue it would make sense to remove the roundabout grass and increase parking spaces. I doubt parking on the roundabout would cause as much difficulty.

As for seeing the restriction - both sets of garages have clear daytime signage that can be seen on entry up the lane - I can’t vouch for streetlight illumination, but cars - presumably with their lights on - will illuminate the signage on entry.

As a resident, you can hardly claim ignorance - if the land isn’t yours, park where you can.


The concerned PCN wasn't affixed to the windscreen. Although the street view doesn't show how bad the parking condition is; there is literally no space to park once you get back beyond 8pm and I'm usually at home on average around 11pm at which point both the roundabout and roads are occupied.

All the same thanks for your help.
ostell
Please edit your last post so that there is no hint of who was driving

@barkley it would appear that the nearest address was not used. Getting the location correct is not an irrelevance or unreasobable. It is not unreasonable for a keeper, who is a different legal entity to the drive and may or may not be the samer, to expect to be given a precise location of the alleged breach. This has been a successful defence, as has been the signs not illuminated.

Does the PPC have a signed contract for both locations?

Kingsley01
QUOTE (Kingsley01 @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 18:45) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 18:38) *
Was What? What are the columns referring to? If it is indeed an adopted road and controlled by the council then write back to the people that issued the PCN stating that they appear to be operating on land that is adopted by the local authority and is therefore not relevant land for the purposes of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and you, the keeper, cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver. You do not expect to hear from them again.

The whole point of getting the location correct is that the NTK is being sent to the keeper and not the driver so this is possibly the first time the keeper knows about this and so needs to know exactly where the event occured. They can't now decide to reissue the PCN and add more details as this would take it past the 14 days.


Thanks for this. Really helpful.
PS: Column headers can be found here:https://photos.app.goo.gl/HF46uryvKQkMz2gW2


So I went to take a picture of the signage in the garages this morning and the restrictions seem confusing.
It's implied that there is a pay and display?
There was also an attempt to obscure some of the wording.

Perhaps someone here can advise on this. Apologies some of the words are unclear.https://photos.app.goo.gl/NnOZoYs1aNHRt9TC3
The Rookie
Well its clear the sign has been updated in the past by a sticker that has now gone, so what the intended parking contract is is impossible to tell, as such, in my opinion, its a nullity. Even if the sticker wasn't an update but vandalism its still not possible to know all the parking concessions.
ostell
So this is a prohibitive sign. "Parking is permitted for ........" There is no offer of parking for those without a permit therefore there can be no breach of contract and the only charge would be a nominal one for trespass.

So it looks as though your street is adopted so it will be a letter stating that it is not relevant land and therefore the keeper cannot be held liable.

There also appears to be multiple styles of signs. What are the others saying?
Kingsley01
QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 12:02) *
So this is a prohibitive sign. "Parking is permitted for ........" There is no offer of parking for those without a permit therefore there can be no breach of contract and the only charge would be a nominal one for trespass.

So it looks as though your street is adopted so it will be a letter stating that it is not relevant land and therefore the keeper cannot be held liable.

There also appears to be multiple styles of signs. What are the others saying?


Thanks for this. The other signs are adds for renting the garages.

PS: the council confirmed today that the stated address in the PCN is an adopted road.
ostell
Good about the adopted road. When I get on the PC (rather that a tablet) I'll type out a suggested letter, unless someone gets in first.

As amatter of interest does it appear that one person or company own the garages? Just wondering who hired the PPC
Kingsley01
QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 17:57) *
Good about the adopted road. When I get on the PC (rather that a tablet) I'll type out a suggested letter, unless someone gets in first.

As amatter of interest does it appear that one person or company own the garages? Just wondering who hired the PPC



Thanks for this, I look forward to your proposed letter. I suspect that 1 company/entity owns the garages or at least manages them. 2 of the concerned garages are being rented by residents.
ostell
Hope this will do. Wait for a while for others to comment.

I am the registered keeper of vehicle xxxxx and have received a PCN, No. xxxxx, from you.
The location given is an adopted road and therefore under Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, section (3) (1) (a), it is not relevant land for the purpose of the Act and therefore there can be no keeper liability. I, as the keeper, have no liability to you. I have no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to inform me that there will be no further action and my details have been removed from your records. Take this as a request under section 10 (1) of the Data Protection act to avoid further harassment and distress. The DPA mandates a response by you within 21 days.




I notice that there are actually 3 garage areas in the area. May be worth looking at the land registry to see who actually owns them and if it is the same entity for all 3. It could just be that there are different owners and the contract with the PPC could be for one area only and this NTK was because someone thought they had more authority than they actually had.
ManxRed
What about suggesting that if they do try and take the matter further you will ask them to produce evidence that they have a contract with the local authority to operate a parking scheme at that location, and that you will notify the DVLA of such an enquiry?
ostell
I'd just leave it at what I said. try not to rattle their cage too much. They are IPC so ignore further letters unless it gets to a letter before claim.
Kingsley01
QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 10:12) *
I'd just leave it at what I said. try not to rattle their cage too much. They are IPC so ignore further letters unless it gets to a letter before claim.

Thanks a lot guys, I appreciate your help on this one.
I'll let you know of the outcome.
cabbyman
Was the coungil's confirmation by phone or E mail?

You need to get it in writing so that it's available for use, if it becomes necessary.
Kingsley01
QUOTE (cabbyman @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 20:12) *
Was the coungil's confirmation by phone or E mail?

You need to get it in writing so that it's available for use, if it becomes necessary.

Via Phone.
I'll write them now to confirm.
Thanks
Kingsley01
QUOTE (Kingsley01 @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 17:50) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 10:12) *
I'd just leave it at what I said. try not to rattle their cage too much. They are IPC so ignore further letters unless it gets to a letter before claim.

Thanks a lot guys, I appreciate your help on this one.
I'll let you know of the outcome.


Hi Guys,
I recieved an email response from the parking representatives; see below.
Look forward to your feedback.
Thanks

"Good Morning,

We are in receipt of your email of complaint.  

We are advised, by our Client, that the land in question is privately-owned and as such our Client has full authority to issue and pursue Parking Charge Notices.

Notwithstanding that, and in order that we may refer the matter to our Client for further instruction; in the first instance, please could you provide us with evidence to support your assertion that the land in question has been adopted by the local authority. Upon receipt of this evidence we shall seek an urgent review from our Client. 

Please provide us with the requisite evidence within 7 days from the date of this email. In the absence of such proof, our instruction is to pursue the outstanding balance.

Kind Regards,

UCS Admin"
ManxRed
Hence why it would be useful for you to get the Council's confirmation in writing.
Kingsley01
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 13:05) *
Hence why it would be useful for you to get the Council's confirmation in writing.


I am waiting for the council's response.
Is it advisable to request a copy of the contract or evidence showing that the stated address is Private Land?
ostell
The address they gave is a public road. If it was any different then it should have been stated correctly on the NTK. You, as the keeper can't be expected to guess where they mean.

THey got it wrong any way didn't they?
ManxRed
QUOTE (Kingsley01 @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 13:20) *
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 13:05) *
Hence why it would be useful for you to get the Council's confirmation in writing.


I am waiting for the council's response.
Is it advisable to request a copy of the contract or evidence showing that the stated address is Private Land?


You'd have a better case by simply showing them something from the Council saying the land is managed by them.

Asking them to prove its Private Land will just meet with a load of flannel on their part.
Kingsley01
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 14:15) *
QUOTE (Kingsley01 @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 13:20) *
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 13:05) *
Hence why it would be useful for you to get the Council's confirmation in writing.


I am waiting for the council's response.
Is it advisable to request a copy of the contract or evidence showing that the stated address is Private Land?


You'd have a better case by simply showing them something from the Council saying the land is managed by them.

Asking them to prove its Private Land will just meet with a load of flannel on their part.


Understood. I'll wait for the council's response.
Thanks
Kingsley01
QUOTE (Kingsley01 @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 15:02) *
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 14:15) *
QUOTE (Kingsley01 @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 13:20) *
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 13:05) *
Hence why it would be useful for you to get the Council's confirmation in writing.


I am waiting for the council's response.
Is it advisable to request a copy of the contract or evidence showing that the stated address is Private Land?


You'd have a better case by simply showing them something from the Council saying the land is managed by them.

Asking them to prove its Private Land will just meet with a load of flannel on their part.


Understood. I'll wait for the council's response.
Thanks


Update:
So now the council £25 to issue the letter which could take up to 10 days ;(.
I am convinced they misunderstood my request; I received verbal confirmation from em, confusing why a letter should cost that much.
Anyways I have written to clarify my request as I get the impression they didn't understand the initial request.

Only concern is losing time to respond to the body that represents the parking firm.
nosferatu1001
You’re asking for a copy of the definitive map showing what roads etc they have adopted. They should be able to send it for free via email.
cabbyman
Start again by E mail:

Dear Borough Council,

Please advise whether the address '[PCN address]' has been adopted as a road maintainable at public expense.

Love and kisses.
Kingsley01
QUOTE (cabbyman @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 14:48) *
Start again by E mail:

Dear Borough Council,

Please advise whether the address '[PCN address]' has been adopted as a road maintainable at public expense.

Love and kisses.


Haha! this was similar to my initial request.
I will add the love and kisses next time smile.gif
Kingsley01
QUOTE (Kingsley01 @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 13:20) *
QUOTE (cabbyman @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 14:48) *
Start again by E mail:

Dear Borough Council,

Please advise whether the address '[PCN address]' has been adopted as a road maintainable at public expense.

Love and kisses.


Haha! this was similar to my initial request.
I will add the love and kisses next time smile.gif


Update:
The council has responded again.

"Classification: OFFICIAL - SENSITIVE
Good Afternoon.

Thank you for your recent email.

An email or letter request is required to order a highway extent plan. A PDF plan is also required with the area marked out in colour.

Our current fees (vatable) are as follows:

Up to 3 questions £25.70
From 4 or more questions £51.40

You may pay either by cheque or online by the following method:

· credit debit card using the Council website following these instructions, go to http://www.enfield.gov.uk/pay select Traffic and Transportation and select into relevant box and follow instructions from there. If you wish to pay online, please email us requesting a reference number to make the payment. Please ensure you email the receipt transaction to transportation@enfield.gov.uk.

As soon as payment is received, we aim to respond within 10 working days


Kind Regards

Highway Services
Planning, Highways & Transportation
Enfield Council
Silver Street
Enfield
EN1 3XD"
ostell
This sounds like a job for you local councillor !!
bearclaw
Try this - Enfield;s List of Streets that call councils have to provide. Shows everything thats adopted and maintainable at public expense.

https://new.enfield.gov.uk/services/plannin...g-book-2015.pdf
ostell
That's the list that was provided before, but this time with the legends. Of particular importance is the comment in the legend at the start is "Streets which are *Adopted (maintainable at public expense) may not always show an Adoption date. This means that if there is no indication in the ‘Remarks’ column that the road is a private road (see 3. below) it is deemed to be *Adopted"

For Orchid Road there is noting in the column therefore the default status is "Adopted".

I would suggest send from that list Pages 1, 2 a 3 to show provenance and legends, Page 6 to show column headings and page 88 to show Orchid Road. Highlight the section in italics above and Orchid road. Send it off to the PPC asking for their comments and request an explanation of their PCN on an adopted road.

Would be interesting to see the repsonse
bearclaw
These appear to be the people renting one set of the garages...

http://www.lockupgarages.co.uk/propertydet...amp;hdLocation=

Handily the address is adjacent to 14-16 Orchid road, which doesnt match the paperwork really...
Kingsley01
QUOTE (bearclaw @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 16:45) *
Try this - Enfield;s List of Streets that call councils have to provide. Shows everything thats adopted and maintainable at public expense.

https://new.enfield.gov.uk/services/plannin...g-book-2015.pdf


Thanks
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