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Full Version: HOUNSLOW COUNCIL - PCN FOR DOUBLE YELLOW LINE PARKING - WRONG ROAD ON PCN
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makara
Hi, again


This forum last helped me successfully get my money back from private clamping (clamped in 2010 - case won in 2012).


Today (Sunday) there were no empty residential bays to park in on our road - so we did today what everyone else living on that part of our road usually does, which is to temporarily park on a corner of our road (which has Double Yellow Lines).


The enforcement hours for parking in Resident Bays is Monday to Friday 9:30 a.m. to 6 p.m. - Saturday 9:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. - and no restriction on Sundays (I do realise we parked on a DYL, which is different to bays).


I was surprised to find see a Hounslow CEO had issued a parking ticket (see links to photos of PCN below) - as I thought they didn't operate on Sundays (or at least not away from the Town Centre).


Three points about the PCN -


1) The reason stated for the PCN is "Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours" - is this not incorrect? We have a Resident Parking Permit displayed - and we parked on a DYL, as opposed to in a "restricted bay".



2) They have misspelt our road name as xxxWOOD Avenue (it is actually xxxWORTH Avenue) - does this incorrect location invalidate the PCN?



3) I remember this forum helping me get two PCNs issued by Hounslow Council thrown out a few years back, by referencing the below PATAS case - although Hounslow Council did try to make me give up, I kept throwing back their arguments - and they eventually seemed to give up on those PCNs -



PATAS case 2100010686 - Hounslow Council are STILL stating the wording "unless this Penalty Charge Notice is challenged".


Links to photos of both sides of the PCN -


http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv221/m...zpsh3ghrbxf.jpg


http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv221/m...zpss6bwckym.jpg



P.S. - not sure if the CEO took photos, as when I entered the PCN number on the website, it gave this message -


"Photos related to this penalty charge notice are not available for viewing online. Please allow up to 24 hours for PCN photos to become available online from the time of issue."



EDIT to the above struck-through parts - I can now see 14 photos of our car parked on the DYL on their website

- does this mean I should throw in the towel?


Or do Points 2) and 3) listed above by me still make it worth disputing?



Many thanks in advance.
Incandescent
You parked on double-yellow lines that mean No Waiting (aka parking), 24x7. The only exemptions are (1) boarding/alighting passengers, (2) loading/unloading, and (3) BB holders for a defined time period, (3 hours I think). So for the contravention you are bang-to-rights, but the PCN may contain fatal errors of content, so that's why we need to see it. The PCN was served to your car, so the error in the street name doesnt count for a great deal, but see what the others say.
makara
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 21:04) *
You parked on double-yellow lines that mean No Waiting (aka parking), 24x7. The only exemptions are (1) boarding/alighting passengers, (2) loading/unloading, and (3) BB holders for a defined time period, (3 hours I think). So for the contravention you are bang-to-rights, but the PCN may contain fatal errors of content, so that's why we need to see it. The PCN was served to your car, so the error in the street name doesnt count for a great deal, but see what the others say.



I posted the links to the PCN (back and front) in the original post - do they open?
stamfordman
Post it on something other than Photobucket - it's rubbish.

Wrong location would possibly be fatal. But let's see the PCN.
makara
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 21:10) *
Post it on something other than Photobucket - it's rubbish.

Wrong location would possibly be fatal. But let's see the PCN.



Thanks - is this better?






stamfordman
Given that the location is a key issue why have you half blanked it?
DancingDad
I would go with "I was not parked on ????wood Avenue, as such the PCN has been issued in error and must be cancelled."

Neil B
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 21:59) *
Given that the location is a key issue why have you half blanked it?

+1
makara
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 23:02) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 21:59) *
Given that the location is a key issue why have you half blanked it?

+1



It's because I live in that road, as mentioned in the original post - and I was under the impression that such clues to personal details should not be posted?


However in case I am incorrect on that, then my road is called ELMSWORTH


- whereas the PCN states ELMWOOD

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 23:01) *
I would go with "I was not parked on ????wood Avenue, as such the PCN has been issued in error and must be cancelled."


Thanks, Dancing Dad - do you know if there has been a previous case where this has been ruled by PATAS?


Or is this a straight-forward case of the CEO making a fatal error?


P.S. - your alias looks very familiar, so I'm guessing you were one of the contributors who assisted on my Clamping case a few years back :-)


P.P.S. - I've just noticed in one of the photos the CEO took of my car, they captured the first part of my road's sign, i.e. "Elmsworth A" (without the avenue) - as unluckily the car was parked near the road sign.


However the road name on the PCN (and on the corresponding page on Hounslow Council's PCN website) is still incorrect - so where does that leave things?


I can upload the photo from the CEO if required - let me know.


peterguk
QUOTE (makara @ Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 22:16) *
It's because I live in that road, as mentioned in the original post - and I was under the impression that such clues to personal details should not be posted?


How would anyone know that unless you told us? Oh, hang on a minute...
stamfordman
Road name isn't a personal detail (unless its your private road I guess...)

As DD says, simple challenge based on wrong location on PCN. They cannot change the details on the PCN.

Do it online.

Do not park on DYLs again... You look like you've been lucky here.
makara
Thanks, Stamfordman - I've submitted the challenge online, as per Dancing Dad's wording -


"I was not parked on Elmwood Avenue - as such the PCN has been issued in error, and must be cancelled"


BTW - should I upload any supplementary evidence?? I am guessing "No"
John U.K.
If some muppet rejects you've already told us that the Council's own "evidence" show the vehicle parked elsewhere!
makara
QUOTE (John U.K. @ Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 23:41) *
If some muppet rejects you've already told us that the Council's own "evidence" show the vehicle parked elsewhere!



John U.K. - excellent point! Thank you!
DancingDad
As far as I am concerned, the PCN alleges that you were parked on DYLs in ????wood avenue when their own evidence shows that you were not.
Fairly certain there are some wrong location cases in the files to assist sticky at the top of the forum pages.

Consider this.
The PCN is served on the vehicle, the driver knows where the vehicle was parked but maybe does not find the PCN or does not respond.
So a Notice to Owner appears. The Owner may not have been the driver but checks with the driver or was the driver.... matters not, they check the location... WTF, I've never parked there, never even been there!
And the authority cannot prove they were as their own evidence shows a different location.

PASTMYBEST
Four miles between the two, cant see a loss, eventually


makara
Dancing Dad - brilliant considerations


- as I was "in" the situation, I am looking at it subjectively - but the scenarios you quote are objectively very possible in the wider world of parking - thank you.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 23:53) *
Four miles between the two, cant see a loss, eventually


Good point - just checked that on Google Maps - didn't realise there was an Elmwood Avenue in these parts - and fortunately that it is in another part of the Borough!
PASTMYBEST
Similar case

2160229036

The appellant attended the appeal.
The appellant denies her vehicle was parked in Bourne Street. Now that the Authority has produced a copy of the photographs taken by the civil enforcement officer it is clear that the street the vehicle was parked on is the street where the appellant lives, Ormonde Gate. The appellant accepts her vehicle was parked on a single yellow line on that street and she agrees that she is liable to pay the penalty at the discounted rate but states that the penalty was paid on the 16 February 2016. The appellant showed me the online confirmation of payment through her bank on her mobile phone but she has not been able to produce a statement as that takes time. The appellant agreed to find the online reference she would have been given upon payment of the penalty and pass the information to the Authority.
The notes recorded by the civil enforcement officer all alleged the vehicle was parked in Bourne Street. In fact the street name is visible in the background in one of the photographs. Since the vehicle was not parked in Bourne Street but in Ormonde Gate, the alleged contravention did not occur albeit that the vehicle was parked in contravention in Ormonde Gate.
In addition the au has failed to produce a copy of the Penalty Charge Notice in this case. This is a procedural impropriety.
The Appellant informs me that she requested photographs at the outset but the au claimed there were none and only produced the photographs at the appeal stage. Clearly if the photographs had been produced earlier on in the process this case would probably never have reached the appeal stage.
Accordingly, I allow the appeal. I direct that any payment made by the appellant in respect of this Penalty Charge Notice is refunded forthwith.
DancingDad
I hope that when you used the simple words you included a comment that the CEO photos will prove the point.
No matter if you didn't, if they reject there are more bites of the apple.
But always put in evidence of an assertion where you can, strengthens cases in later stages and authority is more likely to consider.
makara
Pastmybest - thanks for the proven case.


DancingDad - I didn't mention the photo (just in case it gave some sort of leverage to the other side) - but as per your advice, I will point it out if challenged.


Thanks, Guys
Neil B
QUOTE (makara @ Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 00:46) *
DancingDad - I didn't mention the photo (just in case it gave some sort of leverage to the other side) - but as per your advice, I will point it out if challenged.

No, just bring any rejection back here before you do any more.
makara
Neil B - sure thing, and thanks
makara
CASE WON!!!!


Hounslow Council cancelled the PCN on technical grounds, and apologised for the inconvenience caused.


Will send a donation when I am able (if this website still has the facility?)


Thanks to all who helped!
makara
Donation now made

- sorry for the delay (am "in between jobs" at the moment).

Thanks, and keep up the good work.
makara
I don't want to start a new thread as this isn't an issue, so am adding to this existing one (since it still refers to my road).


There are 6 x Mixed bays at the end of the road - where either Pay and Displays can park - or Hounslow Resident Permit holders can.


The signs however are confusing - as at the very bottom, they state "Maximum stay 4 hours".


I just contacted Hounslow Council to ask if the 4 hours apply to both types of users - or just to P and Ds.


They replied to say it's just for P and Ds.


Now if I am given a PCN (as due to Water pipe roadworks, there is going to be suspended parking in our road next week - except for those 6 mixed bays) - I will be using Hounslow's E-mail reply as an appeal.


Not to say I would be improperly ticketed - but being on this Forum (and seeing what other councils do!) - better to be prepared :-)
DancingDad
QUOTE (makara @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 16:31) *
........... - I will be using Hounslow's E-mail reply as an appeal.


Not to say I would be improperly ticketed - but being on this Forum (and seeing what other councils do!) - better to be prepared :-)


Known as relying on the authority of...well, the authority.
You had a query, checked it, got the answer in writing, should be fireproof.

Oh and well done on the other, I missed that they cancelled.
makara
Thanks, DD - and also for your help on the win :-)
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