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iain123
Hello Group

I had a PCN served in the post from Havering (East London) for a 50r with a "Date of this Notice: 04 January 2018".

The "alleged" event occurred on 17/11/2017 and there is a photo of what looks like my car turning right, so quite a bit time has passed since the event occurred?

I have not tried to view the footage of the event as advised on the PCN on the Havering website.
I have attached the 4 pages of this PCN notice below.


The PCN states
1, i have14 days to pay a reduced penalty charge of £65
2, Or 28 days to pay £130.
3, Or challenge this PCN.


I am not local to Havering or East London and do not normally drive far or lot miles in a year, (not sure if this is any kind of reason to challenge the PCN or that I have disabilities). The road was quite at the time the

The PCN, threatens "A person who knowingly or recklessly makes a false representation regarding a material fact is guilty of an offense and on summary conviction may be liable for a fine of up to £5000", which is very off-putting and aggressive and appears twice in different forms in the PCN?

I would like to challenge the PCN and seek advice please on possible grounds?

Thank you for your help
Iain

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment
stamfordman
Is the car registered to you and your home address?

If so, I get confused about time limits for various PCNs - someone else will advise.
Neil B
PCN is rubbish; wrong periods for both payments (by 4 days!)

Iain.
That PCN is deemed (in law) to be 'served' 2 working days after posting. Sat/Sun are not working days.

Read it and tell me the deadlines for paying a) at discount and b) full rate ??
nextdoor
Doesn't the pcn have to be served within 28 days of the contravention?

So !7th November contravention should have been served by 15th December
Neil B
QUOTE (nextdoor @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 16:17) *
Doesn't the pcn have to be served within 28 days of the contravention?

So !7th November contravention should have been served by 15th December

Yup, nice one.

Is this a leased car?
iain123
[quote name='stamfordman' date='Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 15:23' post='1345550']
Is the car registered to you and your home address?

Yes I am the owner and the keeper of the car and am in the DVLA log book
iain123
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 17:00) *
Is this a leased car?


I am the outright owner of the car, eg its not leased not hp etc.
And have been the owner on the DVLA logbook for 4+ years
stamfordman
You can appeal on the basis that the PCN is served out of time but I think council has a defence if it asked DVLA for details within 14 days.
Neil B
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 18:27) *
You can appeal on the basis that the PCN is served out of time but I think council has a defence if it asked DVLA for details within 14 days.

Only if they didn't get a DVLA response in time and since it's all done by direct link, virtually impossible.
iain123
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 16:02) *
PCN is rubbish; wrong periods for both payments (by 4 days!)

Iain.
That PCN is deemed (in law) to be 'served' 2 working days after posting. Sat/Sun are not working days.

Read it and tell me the deadlines for paying a) at discount and b) full rate ??


The PCN was served by post with a "Date of this Notice: 04 (which was a Thursday) January 2018"

a) "A reduced charge of £65.00 is payable in the following
circumstances:
If the penalty charge is paid not later than the last day of
the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which this
notice was served, the penalty charge will be reduced by
50%."

b) "The penalty charge is £130.00
The penalty charge must be paid not later than the last day
of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which
this penalty charge notice is served."

I cannot find a definition on my PCN or a specified date when this "penalty charge notice is served" or is deemed to be served.
All i have on the PCN is the words "Date of this Notice: 04 January 2018"

Also
"The authority may disregard any representations received outside the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the PCN."

"We will consider your representation and any supporting evidence, and serve a notice on you of our decision,
within the period of 56 days beginning with the date we recieve your representation..."

"If after the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this PCN is served no such representations have been made, and the penalty charge has not been paid, we may increase the penalty charge by 50% to £195.00....."

Neil B
QUOTE (iain123 @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 18:58) *
I cannot find a definition on my PCN or a specified date when this "penalty charge notice is served" or is deemed to be served.

I gave it to you? Two working days.
Incandescent
The PCN is issued under the LLA & TFL Act 2003. I can't find any limit of the serving of a PCN under this Act. Is it in regulations ?
stamfordman
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 19:23) *
The PCN is issued under the LLA & TFL Act 2003. I can't find any limit of the serving of a PCN under this Act. Is it in regulations ?



Is it guidance rather than regulation? When I have time I will write a sticky doc that gets through the various PCN situations. The tribunal site(s) are good at saying what you must do but not what the EA must (or should under guidance) do.
nextdoor
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 19:23) *
The PCN is issued under the LLA & TFL Act 2003. I can't find any limit of the serving of a PCN under this Act. Is it in regulations ?

QUOTE
Limitation on service of penalty charge notice

(1)Subject to the provisions of this section, no penalty charge notice may be served under this Act after the expiry of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention or failure to comply occurred.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/6/enacted
iain123
I have dyslexia so comprehension is not my best skill

Hello Nell B

You said the "PCN is rubbish; wrong periods for both payments (by 4 days!)"
is that because i did not say (forgot to say) within 14 or 28 days of when the penalty notice is served in my original posting"
So giving me an extra 4 days to pay respond to the PCN.

So there is no longer a valid point of being 4 days out?

Thanks
iain

Neil B
QUOTE (iain123 @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:13) *
I have dyslexia so comprehension is not my best skill

Hello Nell B

You said the "PCN is rubbish; wrong periods for both payments (by 4 days!)"
is that because i did not say (forgot to say) within 14 or 28 days of when the penalty notice is served in my original posting"
So giving me an extra 4 days to pay respond to the PCN.

So there is no longer a valid point of being 4 days out?

Thanks
iain


You are trying to second guess the point I'm making; don't, that's what's confusing you.

Ok, just one of the periods.
When is the last day you may pay at discount, according to the PCN ?

Just a date please - not an essay.

PASTMYBEST
On the surface the PCN is served out of time, as per the regulation linked by nextdoor. It may be that one of the provisos that extend this time apply, but put the council to proof.

Also they use the term date of service. This is at best 2 days after the date of the notice, BUT the regulations use the date of notice. So if you pay or challenge on what you maty consider the 28th day you would be late and subject to an increased penalty.

This case had a PCN with only one of the periods wrong

2160496258

The appellant attended the hearing.
The issue of the appeal is the penalty amount.
The local authority has chosen to proceed under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003.
Section 4(8) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London act 2003 says that the penalty notice must state:
1 the grounds on which the council or, as the case may be, Transport for London believe that the penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;
2 the amount of the penalty charge which is payable;
3 that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;
4 that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion;
5 that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;
6 the amount of the increased charge;
7 the address to which the penalty charge must be sent;
8 that the person on whom the person is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Act; and
9 specify the form in which such representations are made.
The local authority's penalty notice states that the reduced amount is payable before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service of the notice.
This is a fundamental error and because of it I will allow the appeal.
Neil B
That put paid to me trying to demonstrate to him how it was wrong then huh.gif

Never mind; I wasn't getting anywhere rolleyes.gif
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:34) *
That put paid to me trying to demonstrate to him how it was wrong then huh.gif

Never mind; I wasn't getting anywhere rolleyes.gif


thinking of your sanity biggrin.gif
Incandescent
QUOTE (nextdoor @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:04) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 19:23) *
The PCN is issued under the LLA & TFL Act 2003. I can't find any limit of the serving of a PCN under this Act. Is it in regulations ?

QUOTE
Limitation on service of penalty charge notice

(1)Subject to the provisions of this section, no penalty charge notice may be served under this Act after the expiry of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention or failure to comply occurred.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/6/enacted

I think I maybe should have gone to Specsavers !!
So, yes, the PCN is way out-of-time assuming there are no car hire or change of ownership issues.
iain123
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:19) *
Ok, just one of the periods.
When is the last day you may pay at discount, according to the PCN ?

Just a date please - not an essay.



21st of January 2018
Neil B
You are dead right Iain, that is what the PCN tells you.

The law says you only have until 17th.

This clearly prejudices you and cases have been won, as PMB has shown.
iain123
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:19) *
Ok, just one of the periods.
When is the last day you may pay at discount, according to the PCN ?

Just a date please - not an essay.


For the 50% reduction 17th January 2018
iain123
I emailed Havering and asked when the PCN noticed was deemed to be served

Their email reply was "Please accept my apologies following the previous email as I had made a typing mistake the serve date was 06/01/2017."

There is a mistake with the year 2017, not the correct 2018.
The 6th January 2018 was a Saturday not a working day

On the PCN the "Date of this Notice: 04 January 2018", was a Thursday

Can I bring this also up as causing me confusion in my challenge?





PASTMYBEST
So what! The law requires that a PCN tells you that it must be paid either at the discounted rate before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of NOTICE. or the full penalty 28 days beginning with the date of NOTICE.

This one does not. Therefore it is not a legal PCN and cannot be used to demand a penalty

These are the words of a high court judge at judicial review. What more need be said

There are good policy reasons why PCNs should comply with the statutory requirements. These documents are issued in large numbers. They often change hands. A PCN may, for example, be issued to a driver on one date and handed over by the driver to the owner on a later date. When a PCN reaches the owner, he or she may wish to pay the discounted charge. There must always be certainty about the date when the notice was issued and the dates when the various periods for payments will expire.
Incandescent
Have I missed something here ? The PCN has been issued out-of-time (28 days for the LLA & TFL Act 2003) and is therefore a nullity.

PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 17:28) *
Have I missed something here ? The PCN has been issued out-of-time (28 days for the LLA & TFL Act 2003) and is therefore a nullity.


no i have. Just that this is another error that was put Same thing applies if the council have made a mistake tough. they cannot enforce.
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