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Korting
A car for which I am the registered keeper was driven up to Manchester in October. It was parked in Pollard Street Metrolink Car Park (New Islington station) on in what I understand is a very poorly marked bay, but nevertheless in the bay. The driver paid for 4 days.

When they returned, they found that someone (a third party) had slightly moved the car and it was just over the bay markings and a ticket had been issued.

I understand that as registered keeper I am not under any legal requirement to name the driver, (assuming I knew) and cannot be held responsible for this PCN

No pictures of the vehicle were taken as there should be no need to do so but there were several people in the car who could be witness's.

Furthermore on the original PAYMENT OVERDUE notice, it states that if payment is not received within 14 days, there may be additional charges, but it doesn't state how much, surely that is illegal.

The car was parked in the morning of day 1, but no ticket was issued until day 2, this seems to back up what has been said about the car being moved.

Here are scans of the documents:







I have removed all information including the bar code, that could be used to identify the notice


I was considering writing the following:


Dear

I as registered keeper have received your Parking Charge Notice ---------

The driver of the vehicle and only the driver is liable for this parking charge notice. The registered keeper has no liability whatsoever.

I have been informed by the driver that the vehicle was parked correctly within a marked bay, but when they returned to the car a couple of days later, they saw that it had been moved and a ticket issued.

Neither myself as registered keeper nor the driver can be held responsible for the actions of a 3rd party.

I suggest you therefore cancel this charge.



What do others think.
kommando
QUOTE
I understand that as registered keeper I am not under any legal requirement to name the driver, (assuming I knew) and cannot be held responsible for this PCN


As keeper you can be liable for the actions of the driver if SIP have met the requirements of POFA 2012, you have no legal requirement to name the driver.

Onto the moving of the car this is very similar to a recent posting, wonder if its the same car park.

Found the ref to a car being bounced, it was SIP and a Manchester Metro link car park.

Search give this link but its a dead one

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...;p=1320980&


Private PCN in station car park manchester - FightBack Forums
There's no damage to the car, they migfht have just bounced it. The V5 is in my name, though more than 1 person is insured to drive it. Parking co is SIP parking. I haven't sent any appeal in yet. So what you are saying infact is DO NOTHING until I receive the notice to Keeper By the way Metrolink is a Tram ...

ostell
The registered keeper can be held liable for the charge incurred by the driver IF SIP comply with the requirements of POFA. The Notice to Keeper has to be received between days 28 and 56 after the parking event. Was the original NTK received within that time and was there a mention of the Protection of Freedoms act on the notice?

Was that "Final Reminder" the first indication of the charge? And give us the dates please.


Just realised that this is the tram network again and as such it may be under Byelaws. Did the signs mention byelaws?
nosferatu1001
Indeed, I thought metrolink was byelaws. As such not relevant land and no chance of keeper liability. Not that any notice tries to claim the keeper is liable - are there any more?
Korting
QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 2 Jan 2018 - 13:01) *
The registered keeper can be held liable for the charge incurred by the driver IF SIP comply with the requirements of POFA. The Notice to Keeper has to be received between days 28 and 56 after the parking event. Was the original NTK received within that time and was there a mention of the Protection of Freedoms act on the notice?

Was that "Final Reminder" the first indication of the charge? And give us the dates please.


Just realised that this is the tram network again and as such it may be under Byelaws. Did the signs mention byelaws?



Original Notice to Keeper was not a notice to keeper but a Payment Overdue Notice.

It was received after 56 days.

No mention of Protection of freedoms act.

Cant remember what signs said and I dont know anyone in Manchester to ask.
ostell
OK, then you tell them that you cannot be held responsible for the actions of the driver as they have not complied with PofA.

I am the keeper of vehicle xxxx which is the subject of your PCN xxxxx. The keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver as the Notice to Keeper fails to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012, namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period contrary to paragraph 8 (4). The only liability is with the driver, whom I have no legal requirement to name, and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that no further action is being taken on this matter.
nosferatu1001
No, don’t say it does not comply
State it does not ATTEMPT to hold the keeper liable under pofa, and as such only the driver ...
ManxRed
Aren't this lot IPC? Their letter mentions Gladstones.

If so, they won't even bother with POFA, and will instead rely (rather stupidly) on Elliott v Loake and AJH Films v Combined Parking Solutions.
Korting
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Tue, 2 Jan 2018 - 16:51) *
Aren't this lot IPC? Their letter mentions Gladstones.

If so, they won't even bother with POFA, and will instead rely (rather stupidly) on Elliott v Loake and AJH Films v Combined Parking Solutions.


Whats the difference between IPC and POFA.

What about the fact they increased the charge from £115 to £125 without telling me the amount that the charge would be raised by?
ostell
POFA = Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. the legislation that allows a parking company to claim from the keeper if they do not know the identity of the driver as long as they follow the rules.

IPC = International Parking Community , One of the groups that the parking companies need to belong to in order to get details from the DVLA. Formerly the Independent Parking Committee but they had to change the name (but not the initials) because of the bad reputation the former name attracted. It's not any better, even with the new name.
Korting
There is nowhere either on SIP's website or their correspondence which tells you whether they are a member of POFA or IPC, however wording on the back of the PAYMENT OVERDUE letter, refers to the Independent Appeals Service.

It seems like they did issue the PAYMENT OVERDUE letter within 56 days, but I as registered keeper have never received a NOTICE TO KEEPER

I can give dates if you think it wont prejudice my case.
freddy1
SIP parking are IPC , however you are dealing with the origional company , extra charges can be added when HANDED TO A DEBT COLLECTOR , they have not done this
ostell
refer to posts #6 and #7 and action them.

They can 't be a member of POFA, that is a reference to government legislation. Go read the link in post #10
Korting
How does this look:

QUOTE
I as the registered keeper of the vehicle xx xx xxx am in receipt of you Parking Charge Notice Payment overdue and subsequent Final reminder.
I am the keeper of vehicle xxxx which is the subject of your PCN xxxxx. The keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver as the Notice to Keeper does not attempt to hold the keeper liable with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012, namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period contrary to paragraph 8 (4). The only liability is with the driver, whom I have no legal requirement to name, and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that no further action is being taken on this matter.
Furthermore you have increased the charge that you consider is liable to be paid, but it is illegal to do so unless it is passed to a debt collector,
I have spoken to the driver, who tells me that the car was parked in the morning of day 1 and the fee was paid for 3-4 days. The driver checked that the car was parked within the very poorly marked bay. Later that afternoon, one of the party went to get some items from the car and noticed a parking attendant wandering around. They retrieved their belongings, locked the vehicle and left. On day 2 this Parking charge notice was affixed to the windscreen. On day 3, the party returned to the vehicle and found that it had been moved slightly so that it was now slightly outside the lines.
Bearing in mind that the ticket was issued on day 2 and not day 1, how can you be certain that the vehicle was parked in the manner described when parked? The driver cannot be held liable whatsoever for the actions of a third party.
The conditions state that a vehicle must be parked in a bay, but does not say wholly in a bay.
Bearing in mind the foregoing, I expect you to cancel this PCN and write to me informing me of the fact.
I look forward to your favourable reply.



ostell
Forget about everything past the "do not expect to hear from you again" paragraph.

There is nothin illegal about increasing the charge so don't even say it
Korting
QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 21:47) *
Forget about everything past the "do not expect to hear from you again" paragraph.

There is nothin illegal about increasing the charge so don't even say it



According to Freddy in post 10 there is. Wouldn't they have to inform you first what te extra charges are?
ostell
They can add anything they like to the claim, it doesn't mean you have to pay it. The usual increase is "For initial legal costs".
nosferatu1001
Freddy didn’t say it was illegal
Look, you’re not understanding. This isn’t a regulated, controlled “thing”. It’s an invoice. Nothing more. An invoice can state whatever the hell it likes.
Korting
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 23:42) *
Freddy didn’t say it was illegal
Look, you’re not understanding. This isn’t a regulated, controlled “thing”. It’s an invoice. Nothing more. An invoice can state whatever the hell it likes.



Another draft

QUOTE
I as the registered keeper of the vehicle xx xx xxx am in receipt of you Parking Charge Notice Payment overdue and subsequent Final reminder.

I am the keeper of vehicle xxxx which is the subject of your PCN xxxxx.

The keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver as the Notice to Keeper does not attempt to hold the keeper liable with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012, namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period contrary to paragraph 8 (4). The only liability is with the driver, whom I have no legal requirement to name, and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that no further action is being taken on this matter.

I have spoken to the driver, who tells me that the car was parked in the morning of day 1 and the fee was paid for 4 days. The driver checked that the car was parked within the very poorly marked bay. Later that afternoon, one of the party went to get some items from the car and noticed a parking attendant wandering around. They retrieved their belongings, locked the vehicle and left.

On day 2 this Parking charge notice was affixed to the windscreen. On day 4, the party returned to the vehicle and found that it had been moved slightly so that it was now slightly outside the lines.

Bearing in mind that the ticket was issued on day 2 and not day 1, how can you be certain that the vehicle was parked in the manner described when parked? The driver cannot be held liable whatsoever for the actions of a third party.

The conditions state that a vehicle must be parked in a bay, but does not say wholly in a bay.

Bearing in mind the foregoing, I expect you to cancel this PCN and write to me informing me of the fact.

I look forward to your favourable reply.


A couple of things which I dont know if they are relevant,

I've never had a NOTICE TO KEEPER.

If this Parking charge was an invoice, then surely they must be registered for VAT, in which case VAT should be shown together with a VAT registration number.
ostell
As I said before remove the extra paragraphs you added. It is basically mitigation and they don't handle mitigation. You have also repeated statements in the additional lines.

The piece of paper you received and posted on here is, in effect, a Notice to Keeper.
Korting
So what you are saying is write this, but nothing more:


QUOTE
I as the registered keeper of the vehicle xx xx xxx am in receipt of you Parking Charge Notice Payment overdue and subsequent Final reminder.

I am the keeper of vehicle xxxx which is the subject of your PCN xxxxx.

The keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver as the Notice to Keeper does not attempt to hold the keeper liable with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012, namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period contrary to paragraph 8 (4). The only liability is with the driver, whom I have no legal requirement to name, and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that no further action is being taken on this matter.

The conditions state that a vehicle must be parked in a bay, but does not say wholly in a bay.

I have spoken to the driver, who tells me that the car was parked within the very poorly marked bay.

Bearing in mind the foregoing, I expect you to cancel this PCN and write to me informing me of the fact.


Is this correct?
ostell
Don't even include the last 3 sentences, you're giving them something to argue about. The last sentence has already been said at the end of the 3rd paragraph.
Korting
Letter will be sent this afternoon
Korting
The letter was sent after the 56 day period,

Date of original notice 02/10/17, Date of Payment overdue notice 08/12/17. Which I make is 67 days, Do I need to add this to my letter.

SchoolRunMum
Yes as long as nothing identifies the driver. And get a free certificate of posting from the PO Counter, don't just pop it in a postbox.
Korting
Sent letter off on Monday recorded delivery, should have been received Tuesday/Wednesday.

On Thursday without replying or acknowledging my letter I received the following NOTICE OF IMPENDING LEGAL ACTION





So what now?

I could write to them again, enclosing a copy of my original letter, They still do not know who the keeper is, they haven't acknowledged my letter,

I feel this should be done sooner rather than later.

Michael
ostell
Could have just crossed in the post but tobe on the safe side remind them that you did send a letter but have had no response.
Korting
Anything else?

If they issue proceedings do I as registered keeper have to go to Manchester or can it be heard in London?
ostell
You are the KEEPER. They don't know the driver do they? edit.

No you select a court that is convenient for you. They may ask that it is a paper only hearing but you object to that.
nosferatu1001
Please, spend a few minutes resear ching how small claims works. It saves you posting questions asked, and answered, 100 times before.
ostell
QUOTE (Korting @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 12:44) *
Sent letter off on Monday recorded delivery, should have been received Tuesday/Wednesday.


You were advised to send with free proof of posting, have the signed for the document or just refused it?
Korting
The answer is I dont know because my daughter, didn't keep the post office receipt!

I've sent it again by email and I will be sending it again by recorded delivery.

But I got an automated response from SIP

QUOTE
Thank you for your email, we have received your email and will be back in touch with you as soon as possible.

PLEASE NOTE: any email related to Parking Charge Notices (PCN's) will not be responded too.

Any correspondence related to a PCN can be served via http://www.sipcarparks.co.uk/Appeals or by writing to SIP Parking Limited, PO BOX 5450, Manchester, M61 0JX.

It may take up to 10 working days to reply, should we expect it to take longer we will let you know.


kommando
QUOTE
I've sent it again by email and I will be sending it again by recorded delivery.


NOT recorded, they can refuse to sign and then there is no record of delivery, post it first class at a post office counter and keep the receipt.
Korting
Ok so after nearly a year and a half, I've received a County Court Summons as below:



I have removed my personal details but if you feel that i should remove more please let me know.

I would like some guidance as to how to respond.

My defence might be something like this:

QUOTE
On Sunday 1st October, The car xx yy xxx was driven and parked at Pollard Street car park in a marked bay.

On Wednesday 4th October the driver returned to the car and found that it had been moved by a third party and that a ticket had been affixed to the windscreen.

A letter disputing the ticket was sent to SIP which was not replied to.

I consider that SIP have not acted within the rules of POFA

I as registered keeper cannot and will not be held liable for this ticket.

SIP do not know the identity of the driver.

SIP cannot prove that the car was parked incorrectly at the time of Parking,

The most likely explanation is that the car was moved by a third party for which neither the driver nor the registered keeper can be held responsible for.

The original charge for parking was paid at the machine in cash.

There has been no losses incurred by SIP as a result of parking in this car park. Furthermore, the claimant should not entitled to any damages.

It is considered that neither myself as registered keeper nor the driver are liable for any amount.

Should the matter proceed to a court hearing then I as the defendant of the claim will make an application for damages of £60 per hour including waiting time as that is my hourly rate that I charge my customers for work done which I cannot do as a result of attending court.


Any advice will be very welcome.
Glacier2
You need to go online and acknowledge the claim first.

Tick intend to defend in full, do not contest jurisdiction and type nothing in the defence.
Korting
Thanks Glazier, the claim has been acknowledged online and I have a PDF of the form that I've kept.

What's next
nosferatu1001
Writing a defence

A defence is written in the third person, ie "the defendant denies that...." and not first person. It si a set of ARGUMENTS why you are not liable, and a series of statements accepting or denying every claim they make in their Particulars of Claim

MSE Forum -> NEwbies thread -> Post 2. Read. Read. Read. Bookmark and, if you have a question, read it again.

What you wrote above is not a defence, but more like a witness statement - which is the "story" of what happened.

Keep your defence concise.
Korting
Any better:

QUOTE
The defendant fully denies the claim and any liability set out in the claim.
The defendant wrote to the claimant on .... but received no reply.
The defendant considers that the claimant did not act within the rules of PoFA.
The claimant has not established who the driver was.
The claimant cannot prove that the vehicle was incorrectly parked at the time of parking.
The defendant considers that the most likely explanation is that the car was moved by a third party for which neither the driver nor the defendant can be held responsible for.

The defendant has been forced to spend a considerable amount of time and effort defending this baseless claim, including incurring direct expenses, postage, stationery and so on. The defendant has had to spend hours researching the law and drafting a full defence and witness statement, and gathering documentary evidence. As a litigant in person, this has caused the defendant significant distress and inconvenience. In contrast, all the claimant has done is to draft and serve a robo-type claim so brief as to be almost incoherent.
Should the matter proceed to a court hearing then the defendant will make an application for damages of £300 for time spent dealing with this matter and £60 per hour including waiting time attending the hearing as that is the defendants hourly rate that is charged to customers for work done which cannot do as a result of attending court
nosferatu1001
Not really, no

Did you read teh suggested thread? Did you note how the defence is structured?

Where in the CPRs, specifically CPR27.14, do you think you can claim a) for damages when actually what you mean is COSTS and b) that these can be £60 per hour? The LIP rate, max, is £19 per hour, and you have to show they have behaved unreasonably.
Korting
I didnt know there was a time limit to put in a defence,

I've now got a judgement in default.

How do I go about getting this set aside and putting in a defence?
ostell
You will have great difficulty having this set aside as it is your failure that resulted in judgement against you.
Korting
How do I go about it?
Jlc
You have to apply and that fee is £255 and unlikely to get that back.
Korting
Very expensive mistake then.
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