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PCNdummy
Hello

I received a PCN on 26th Dec 2017, Boxing Day. Parked Without Clearly Displaying A valid Pay & Display Ticket Or Voucher.

The parking Ticket Machine states restricted times Mon-Sat 8.30am-6.30pm. Including Bank Holidays. I did not pay for parking, it did not even dawn on me that Christmas Day and Boxing Day would be classified as a bank holidays.

I plan to challenge the PCN. Signage is not clear. Can a sign just say "Including Bank Holidays" surely it should list the exact days ie "Including Christmas Day, Boxing Day, Good Friday" etc.

Any help would be appreciated. Pic attached of signage.
ford poplar
IMO stating 'including Bank Holidays' is quite sufficient.
stamfordman
Councils mostly use 'bank holiday' for any public holiday. Some councils don't charge in pay and display bays or enforce resident bays on bank holidays but some do.

Maybe there is an angle on the definition.

To make matters more confusing I see that my borough, Hackney, says:" if Boxing Day falls on a Saturday or Sunday this will not be treated as a bank holiday and normal Saturday/Sunday enforcement will apply." But if it's on a weekday the P&D bays are free.
Incandescent
Our first PCN for Christmas or Boxing day ! As soon as I saw when Christmas and Boxing days fell this year, I thought - that'll be a nice little earner for the councils ! Frankly you are bang-to-rights according to their sign and should consider paying the discount. However what a venal council for getting its CEOs out to wallop people on these two days.
Rapacious too.
DancingDad
Aye.
And Boxing day (26th) not a Bank Holiday this year either.

QUOTE
SCHEDULE 1
Bank Holidays
The following are to be bank holidays in England and Wales:—
Easter Monday.
The last Monday in May.
The last Monday in August.
26th December, if it be not a Sunday.
27th December in a year in which 25th or 26th December is a Sunday.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/80/schedule/1

So basically you parked on a Monday without payment, despite thinking it was a Bank Holiday and the machine saying that payment was due on Bank Holidays.
???
Kryten 4000
The quoted legislation is out of date - the correct list is here:

https://www.gov.uk/bank-holidays

Tuesday 26th Dec 2017 was a Bank Holiday. Sign said restrictions apply Mon-Sat including Bank Holidays
Not sure what's difficult to understand
stamfordman
Post the PCN in any case. May be some faults.
Mad Mick V
Since the meter is not a "traffic sign" I would agree the OP's logic on unclear signage. How far he would get with that ground is debatable but worth sending in reps. They might c*ck -up their response.

Mick
hcandersen
?

Where is the traffic sign? Not the machine, the traffic sign.

The machine does NOT state 'restricted times ......', it states 'charging applies', which is not the same thing at all.

The sign regulates the parking place which is subject to charges as stated on the machine. But the parking place is restricted as per the traffic sign. So for example, a sign which stated P, pay and display, max stay 2 hours would, in conjunction with the machine, mean pay for parking during the period stated on the machine but even when charges were not in effect, max. period 2 hrs for 24/7.

It is not possible to draw conclusions about the effect of signs on a machine without seeing the traffic signs themselves.

OP, over to you.
DancingDad
QUOTE (Kryten 4000 @ Mon, 1 Jan 2018 - 18:09) *
The quoted legislation is out of date - the correct list is here:

https://www.gov.uk/bank-holidays
.......


Perhaps you would like to point us to the correct legislation then ????
Especially as the gov website you posted was incorrect last year.
Always go to the legislation, not some oik's interpretation of it.
Longtime Lurker
Surely the whole bank holiday angle is irrelevant? If it was a bank holiday, bank holidays are included in the restricted times. If it wasn't a bank holiday, it was just a Tuesday and Tuesdays are included in the restricted times. Either way, the OP parked at a restricted time.
Barry S
The relevant legislation is the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971, per DD's post, which is quite clear that 26th December is a bank holiday in England and Wales providing it doesn't fall on a Sunday. Similarly, if either Christmas Day or Boxing Day falls on a Sunday, the 27th is a bank holiday in lieu.

Good Friday and Christmas Day itself are common law public holidays, and New Year's Day and "May Day" Bank Holiday are declared by Royal Proclamation. The relevant notice for 2018 can be found here.

Having said all that, 26th December 2017 was a Tuesday so, with no indication to the contrary, I'd expect enforcement to apply as normal. However, all we've seen so far is a photo of the payment machine and not the signage or PCN, so it's difficult to give proper advice.
PCNdummy
OP Here. See attached pic of parking sign and PCN. Note the sign is from Streetview July 2017, I did not get a pic on the day. TBH I cannot see any issue with either, they are both very clear.

Thanks for then replies so far. Yes, it looks like by the letter of the law, if you look up 'bank holidays', Boxing Day 26th is classed as a 'bank holiday'. However is it reasonable for a motorist to know which public holidays are 'bank holidays' and which are not? This is my defence. In all my 50+ years I have never heard of Boxing Day being classed as a 'bank holiday'.

The signage on the meter is ambiguous, not clear. So much so that the parking attendants where have a field day, I counted 7 cars with tickets in the same street. Surely it is not unreasonable for a council to post clear signage, so not to confuse the motorist?
DancingDad
Trouble is that the instructions will not be seen as ambiguous.
Boxing Day has been a bank holiday since the original banking act in 1871.

And adjudicator will look at instructions to pay Mon to Sat and that it includes Bank Holidays (which many don't say and catch people out that way)
And will expect an adult to know what days are Bank Holidays. Ignorance in that respect is not a defence.
hcandersen
So, we have two possible cases, given that 26th was a Tues:

1. It was a Bank Holiday;
2. It wasn't.

As regards 1, charges were payable, as per the sign on the machine;
As regards 2, charges were payable.

Hopefully the BH hare has been shot or, more humanely, at least returned to its home: it is not relevant in this case.

This is a case of wishful thinking, not definitions!
spaceman
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 1 Jan 2018 - 17:00) *
Our first PCN for Christmas or Boxing day ! As soon as I saw when Christmas and Boxing days fell this year, I thought - that'll be a nice little earner for the councils ! Frankly you are bang-to-rights according to their sign and should consider paying the discount. However what a venal council for getting its CEOs out to wallop people on these two days.
Rapacious too.

What's the difference between these falling on Monday and Tuesday this year and any other weekday in any other year?

Answer = none!
Kryten 4000
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 2 Jan 2018 - 01:12) *
QUOTE (Kryten 4000 @ Mon, 1 Jan 2018 - 18:09) *
The quoted legislation is out of date - the correct list is here:

https://www.gov.uk/bank-holidays
.......


Perhaps you would like to point us to the correct legislation then ????
Especially as the gov website you posted was incorrect last year.
Always go to the legislation, not some oik's interpretation of it.


OK, so the 1971 act is current. My point is that it is an incomplete list compared to reality because it does not include either New Years Day, the early May Bank Holiday (or any other day that is designated by Royal proclamation).



hcandersen
As this issue is not relevant to the OP, could it be discussed in the Flame Pit pl.
Longtime Lurker
PCNdummy, you asked for help, so here it is:

It's very, very unlikely that an adjudicator would overturn a ticket based on your argument, because as long as you know it's Tuesday, the sign makes it clear that you have to pay. You pay on Tuesdays that are Bank Holidays and Tuesdays that are not Bank Holidays. If the adjudicator agreed with you and said that every single Bank Holiday needs to be spelt our precisely, then the council would have to re-label every machine each year when the official list of days is released. In my experience of reading adjudications, no adjudicator would ever set that sort of precedent.

An argument based around there being a reasonable expectation of non enforcement on Boxing Day might be a bit more likely to succeed, but it's still a very long shot.

My advice would be to post a copy of the PCN here (with your reg number blanked out), the experts here may be able to find some other fault with it that wins this for you.

PCNdummy
Thanks to those who have posted useful comments. I think I'm going to have to take this one on the chin, I know LB Harrow will not back down, they rarely do, even in the 'season of good will to all men'. Will an adudicator find in my favour? I doubt it, as pointed out, there is nothing legally wrong with the signage. Yes, it could be clearer, ie ' Including All Public and Bank Holidays'.

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