Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Hillingdon parking fine for actually having paid for parking!
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
challenge_cheaters
Hoping you guys can help...

Paid for parking prior to attending a meal at a restaurant. Realised time was running out, so went back to the car, moved it further down the high road and displayed a second ticket (to cover me for a later period).

To my horror, I was surprised to have received a parking ticket because I had paid to cover myself for the time period.

my Appealed got rejected and I have left some time before posting to this forum.

Can you help?

thanks






















stamfordman
Post the PCN. Presume it was a code 7 meter feeding - don't think we've seen one of these for while.

Does Hillingdon do pay by phone (eg Ringgo) - you can usually extend parking time with this which would make a nonsense of this contravention.

Also you moved the car...
peterguk
Post up the PCN.

What is the offence on the PCN? I suspect it wasn't "for paying for parking".
PASTMYBEST
well your past any chance of the discount unless they re offer at representations Ask them for the Traffic Management Order and get a photo of the notice on the machine

The one sign photographed does not restrict top up payment so not a bad shot. Post the NTO when you get that
hcandersen
In their reply they said that the terms and conditions of use of the parking place (on which they rely to underpin the PCN) were shown clearly on the ticket machine AND that a copy was enclosed.

Where is their enclosure? This is vital info.

And we still haven't seen the PCN.

OP, if you want help, then this is a two-way street: you post requested docs in a timely manner, we give considered opinion.
DancingDad
Plus 1

We need the enclosure and if possible, what the ticket machine says.

I'd also like to know where you moved from and to?
Can you pinpoint on streetview?
DJ Lexy
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:42) *
Does Hillingdon do pay by phone (eg Ringgo) - you can usually extend parking time with this which would make a nonsense of this contravention.

The rationale is that your RingGo purchases are tied to the VRM, so they can enforce maximum stays or variable charging rates (e.g. first 30 minutes free, then £2 per hour). The same applies to these new-fangled machines you type your VRM into. They can refuse to let you stay beyond the maximum permitted time, and stop you repeatedly getting new tickets to get cheaper short-stay parking.

Old parking machines, the kind where you just put in your money and take your ticket, can't do this. That's why it's technically a contravention to extend your stay by purchasing another ticket.

Most of the time, councils don't care. You can park as long as you want, if you pay for the time. The only time councils care is, as mentioned above, if there's a maximum stay or where the parking gets more expensive the longer you stay.

It's always a good idea to remove the old ticket when you buy a new one.
PASTMYBEST
What the council do and why is of no consequence. That you have a PCN is. Is it legal? For it to be so the council must produce a Traffic Management Order setting out the restrictions.

From the sign you have posted, even if they have an order the sign is inadequate to convey the restriction It does not inform that you cannot return within a set period, nor does it tell you you cannot extend time for a TMO to be enforceable the signs must inform you of the restriction
DancingDad
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 01:31) *
What the council do and why is of no consequence. That you have a PCN is. Is it legal? For it to be so the council must produce a Traffic Management Order setting out the restrictions.

From the sign you have posted, even if they have an order the sign is inadequate to convey the restriction It does not inform that you cannot return within a set period, nor does it tell you you cannot extend time for a TMO to be enforceable the signs must inform you of the restriction


My only issue with that is that we don't know what signs were present where OP parked, where they moved car from and to.
And what is on the ticket machine, which some adjudicators accept as enough.
hcandersen
OP, help us out please.

You and only you hold the keys to this issue, and unless you communicate with us, we're blind.
challenge_cheaters
thanks for your response guys. Sorry been really busy.

Pics of the signage and machine:






Parked here initially; 123 Field End Rd, Pinner HA5 1QH or https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Boots+P...33;4d-0.3992182

then moved further down the same road.

Unfortunately, I have missed place the original PCN.
hcandersen
And the enclosure to which the authority referred in their letter is??????
DancingDad
Yes please, the enclosure.

A ticket may only be purchased on initials parking and prohibition against a further free ticket would seem to be the T&Cs they rely on.

Why did you move the car?
Where to? exactly.
Did you pay at same machine or a different one?
Did you pay or claim a new free half hour ?
challenge_cheaters
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:39) *
Yes please, the enclosure.

A ticket may only be purchased on initials parking and prohibition against a further free ticket would seem to be the T&Cs they rely on.

Why did you move the car?
Where to? exactly.
Did you pay at same machine or a different one?
Did you pay or claim a new free half hour ?


The enclosure is not with me right now but is basically a picture of this:

I will additionally source it and post it.

To answer your questions:
- I was eating with my family in a restaurant and the parking period I had paid for was coming to an end.
- Moved the car further down the road (closer to the restaurant) and paid at a different machine.
- I paid for an additional 1 hour
- Please see the attached clearer pictures of the parking tickets.
DancingDad
So I assume that in moving closer and paying at a different machine, you also changed parking bays ?
Churchmouse
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 21:54) *
So I assume that in moving closer and paying at a different machine, you also changed parking bays ?

How are we defining "parking bay" these days?

--Churchmouse
DancingDad
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 11:06) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 21:54) *
So I assume that in moving closer and paying at a different machine, you also changed parking bays ?

How are we defining "parking bay" these days?

--Churchmouse


Good question.

The simplistic is a parking place that is bounded by white markings as per TSRGD and separated from another by alternative (or no) restrictions.
Each bay having its own restriction sign(s). May have individual spaces marked within.

Councils, I suspect this one may, have been known to count all bays in a road or limited area for the purposes of no return or topping up contraventions.

In this case, we do not need to worry on "No Return" only if the second P&D ticket would be valid.

IMO according to the T&Cs of the payment machine, it must be. May not be according to the traffic order but signs must reflect the order if they are to be relied on.

From the rejection letter, I am assuming that the contravention is not paying/displaying but would be useful if OP would confirm?

If it is, I think an easy win once it is made clear to the council (and adjudicator if it gets that far) that OP moved the vehicle to another seemingly unrelated space and indeed payment machine.

challenge_cheaters
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 21:54) *
So I assume that in moving closer and paying at a different machine, you also changed parking bays ?


yes

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:42) *
Post the PCN. Presume it was a code 7 meter feeding - don't think we've seen one of these for while.

Does Hillingdon do pay by phone (eg Ringgo) - you can usually extend parking time with this which would make a nonsense of this contravention.

Also you moved the car...



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 23:10) *
And the enclosure to which the authority referred in their letter is??????



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:39) *
Yes please, the enclosure.

A ticket may only be purchased on initials parking and prohibition against a further free ticket would seem to be the T&Cs they rely on.

Why did you move the car?
Where to? exactly.
Did you pay at same machine or a different one?
Did you pay or claim a new free half hour ?


yes, they highlihgted the 'meter feeding' line. Please see the enclosure attached.

challenge_cheaters
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:42) *
Post the PCN. Presume it was a code 7 meter feeding - don't think we've seen one of these for while.

Does Hillingdon do pay by phone (eg Ringgo) - you can usually extend parking time with this which would make a nonsense of this contravention.

Also you moved the car...


no, Hillingdon, do not do Ringo :-(
DancingDad
Right then.
They are pushing enforcement due to meter feeding.
They specifically show machine 32G on the enclosure.
The piccie you showed of a machine plate earlier showed 34G
Can you check machine numbers that you paid at?
On P&Ds or actual visit to machines.

Sorry about the questions but I reckon it is now clear enough to have a good chance of winning.
Churchmouse
The OP has already posted one picture of a ticket issued by machine 32G and another picture of one issued by machine 34G. If those are the OP's only parking tickets, clearly, the same meter had not been "fed". But the "prohibition" highlighted will only be a summary of the statutory prohibition, which could make the distinction irrelevant.

--Churchmouse
challenge_cheaters
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 15:19) *
Right then.
They are pushing enforcement due to meter feeding.
They specifically show machine 32G on the enclosure.
The piccie you showed of a machine plate earlier showed 34G
Can you check machine numbers that you paid at?
On P&Ds or actual visit to machines.

Sorry about the questions but I reckon it is now clear enough to have a good chance of winning.


Hi, I went to both machines today. They are separate and correspond to the numbers in the tickets (32G and 34G). Can you advise on how I should argue my case? Thanks
DancingDad
Signs and lines are everything.
They are the information that a motorist relies on to show and understand whatever restrictions are created by traffic orders.
If the signs do not show the effect of a traffic order, a motorist cannot be expected to be aware of it and more importantly, cannot contravene it.

The signs here are relatively simple. Marked out parking bays, separated by other bays (such as disabled) and each with their own restriction signs.
No Return is prominent as is Pay &Display.
But no identifier that would suggest that they are in a common zone.
So the obedient motorist goes to the machine and reads the T&Cs, pays and displays.

Then for whatever reason, has to leave.
So drives away.
Returns a little while later and re-parks, in a different bay and pays at a different machine.
The one relevant instruction on the machine says that the motorist must pay for the duration of parking when they first park.
The OP did, both times..... thanks, case over, you win.

Would be a stickier wicket if they had tried for returning within prohibited time but to me, the different bays and machines even kill that one.

Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ????
I parked and paid at machine 32G (34G if that one was first), displayed my ticket as required.
A little later I had to leave, returning in a short while but parked in a different parking place.
I once again paid for my parking, this time at machine ??? and once again displayed my ticket.
Both times I followed the instructions on the machines to pay for my duration of parking when I first parked.
I enclose copies of both tickets and both can be seen displayed on your CEO photos.
Given the signs in place and the instructions on the machines have been followed to the letter, I cannot be in contravention.
Please cancel the PCN or explain exactly what I did wrong to make your CEO and you disregard the clearly displayed P&D ticket, valid at the time the PCN was served and purchased in a different place at a different machine.
Hugs and Kisses
hcandersen
We still do not know the contravention!

Their letter states '..your vehicle was seen parked after the expiry time of the Pay and Display voucher and therefore the PCN was correctly issued'

OP, the rest has been guesswork on our part because you've mislaid the PCN.

An earlier post asked you to confirm the contravention, but you haven't.

We don't need the PCN to know the contravention, just get online, enter your details and post the contravention and code. At least then we'll know what we're dealing with.
challenge_cheaters
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 27 Dec 2017 - 23:54) *
Signs and lines are everything.
They are the information that a motorist relies on to show and understand whatever restrictions are created by traffic orders.
If the signs do not show the effect of a traffic order, a motorist cannot be expected to be aware of it and more importantly, cannot contravene it.

The signs here are relatively simple. Marked out parking bays, separated by other bays (such as disabled) and each with their own restriction signs.
No Return is prominent as is Pay &Display.
But no identifier that would suggest that they are in a common zone.
So the obedient motorist goes to the machine and reads the T&Cs, pays and displays.

Then for whatever reason, has to leave.
So drives away.
Returns a little while later and re-parks, in a different bay and pays at a different machine.
The one relevant instruction on the machine says that the motorist must pay for the duration of parking when they first park.
The OP did, both times..... thanks, case over, you win.

Would be a stickier wicket if they had tried for returning within prohibited time but to me, the different bays and machines even kill that one.

Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ????
I parked and paid at machine 32G (34G if that one was first), displayed my ticket as required.
A little later I had to leave, returning in a short while but parked in a different parking place.
I once again paid for my parking, this time at machine ??? and once again displayed my ticket.
Both times I followed the instructions on the machines to pay for my duration of parking when I first parked.
I enclose copies of both tickets and both can be seen displayed on your CEO photos.
Given the signs in place and the instructions on the machines have been followed to the letter, I cannot be in contravention.
Please cancel the PCN or explain exactly what I did wrong to make your CEO and you disregard the clearly displayed P&D ticket, valid at the time the PCN was served and purchased in a different place at a different machine.
Hugs and Kisses


Thanks for the feedback - Because I had initially appealed, does that affect when and how I can reappeal now?

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 08:26) *
We still do not know the contravention!

Their letter states '..your vehicle was seen parked after the expiry time of the Pay and Display voucher and therefore the PCN was correctly issued'

OP, the rest has been guesswork on our part because you've mislaid the PCN.

An earlier post asked you to confirm the contravention, but you haven't.

We don't need the PCN to know the contravention, just get online, enter your details and post the contravention and code. At least then we'll know what we're dealing with.



Ok, I'll have a look and post. Thanks
Churchmouse
I see that the photos in Post #1 show that both tickets were visible on the dashboard. The later one is also very difficult to read (looks like the machine's printer is malfunctioning).

--Churchmouse
challenge_cheaters
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 08:26) *
We still do not know the contravention!

Their letter states '..your vehicle was seen parked after the expiry time of the Pay and Display voucher and therefore the PCN was correctly issued'

OP, the rest has been guesswork on our part because you've mislaid the PCN.

An earlier post asked you to confirm the contravention, but you haven't.

We don't need the PCN to know the contravention, just get online, enter your details and post the contravention and code. At least then we'll know what we're dealing with.


I've been online to their website and cannot obtain the convention code. It just shows me the pictures. Is there another way of obtaining it?
challenge_cheaters
QUOTE (challenge_cheaters @ Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 08:26) *
We still do not know the contravention!

Their letter states '..your vehicle was seen parked after the expiry time of the Pay and Display voucher and therefore the PCN was correctly issued'

OP, the rest has been guesswork on our part because you've mislaid the PCN.

An earlier post asked you to confirm the contravention, but you haven't.

We don't need the PCN to know the contravention, just get online, enter your details and post the contravention and code. At least then we'll know what we're dealing with.


I've been online to their website and cannot obtain the convention code. It just shows me the pictures. Is there another way of obtaining it?


I was given a notice to owner on 03 Jan (which allows me a further 28 days to appeal...to 31 Jan ). It states the code as "05 Parked after the expiry of paid for time"

Any final help please?
stamfordman
QUOTE (challenge_cheaters @ Sat, 27 Jan 2018 - 22:07) *
It states the code as "05 Parked after the expiry of paid for time"


That's not meter feeding as they allege in their rejection - that would be code 7.

If you were parked with a ticket covering the time of contravention surely this is a straightforward win.
challenge_cheaters
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 27 Jan 2018 - 23:21) *
QUOTE (challenge_cheaters @ Sat, 27 Jan 2018 - 22:07) *
It states the code as "05 Parked after the expiry of paid for time"


That's not meter feeding as they allege in their rejection - that would be code 7.

If you were parked with a ticket covering the time of contravention surely this is a straightforward win.


Thanks...So should i just talk/ focus on the ticket that had not expired?
hcandersen
OP, the convention here is to post docs, not OPs' interpretation.

In your case, you haven't a PCN, but you have a NTO. We need to see it to check for procedural correctness. Leave in all dates etc. I do not know what 'I was given a NTO on 3 Jan' means.

If it was dated 3 Jan then the latest date for making reps would be 1 Feb.
challenge_cheaters
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 27 Jan 2018 - 23:36) *
OP, the convention here is to post docs, not OPs' interpretation.

In your case, you haven't a PCN, but you have a NTO. We need to see it to check for procedural correctness. Leave in all dates etc. I do not know what 'I was given a NTO on 3 Jan' means.

If it was dated 3 Jan then the latest date for making reps would be 1 Feb.



OK - I'll upload them in a bit. Thanks

QUOTE (challenge_cheaters @ Sat, 27 Jan 2018 - 23:50) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 27 Jan 2018 - 23:36) *
OP, the convention here is to post docs, not OPs' interpretation.

In your case, you haven't a PCN, but you have a NTO. We need to see it to check for procedural correctness. Leave in all dates etc. I do not know what 'I was given a NTO on 3 Jan' means.

If it was dated 3 Jan then the latest date for making reps would be 1 Feb.



OK - I'll upload them in a bit. Thanks


Please see my NTO below. Do let me know your thoughts. Thanks










challenge_cheaters
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 27 Jan 2018 - 23:36) *
OP, the convention here is to post docs, not OPs' interpretation.

In your case, you haven't a PCN, but you have a NTO. We need to see it to check for procedural correctness. Leave in all dates etc. I do not know what 'I was given a NTO on 3 Jan' means.

If it was dated 3 Jan then the latest date for making reps would be 1 Feb.


Love to hear your thoughts on my NTO.

Thanks
DancingDad
Post 23 still works for me.
hcandersen
Procedurally it's compliant.

We just need to look at all the evidence now.

Have they accepted/can you prove that you were displaying a valid P&D ticket valid for the specified location at the time of the contravention?


DancingDad
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 21:56) *
.......Have they accepted/can you prove that you were displaying a valid P&D ticket valid for the specified location at the time of the contravention?


CEo pictures show valid and earlier tickets on display plus OP has (had) copies of tickets.
hcandersen
In post #1 I can see council photos one of which shows a close up of a P&D with an expiry time prior to the contravention and one which appears to show another P&D whose details are unreadable on the dashboard;

Post #14 shows OP-generated photos, one of which is a P&D which expires after the time of contravention. The orientation of the ticket in this photo suggests it was taken after the event and is not contemporaneous.

So, OP pl confirm what's what.
challenge_cheaters
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 08:53) *
In post #1 I can see council photos one of which shows a close up of a P&D with an expiry time prior to the contravention and one which appears to show another P&D whose details are unreadable on the dashboard;

Post #14 shows OP-generated photos, one of which is a P&D which expires after the time of contravention. The orientation of the ticket in this photo suggests it was taken after the event and is not contemporaneous.

So, OP pl confirm what's what.


Yes, post #14 are clearer pictures of the 2 tickets I had on display to support my story, that the attendant would of seen. This is what I initially appealed to Hillingdon with, where they rejected it on the grounds (shown in an earlier post) that meter feeding is not allowed.
hcandersen
Can we put meter feeding to the side please and just give the relevant facts:

At *** on *** I parked at A, purchased a P&D ticket with an expiry time of **.

At ** I moved the vehicle and parked at **, the location of the alleged contravention. I purchased a P&D from the applicable machine (the same as for A or different?) with an expiry time of ***.

And this is where your account is unclear.

The CEO's photo shows 2 P&D tickets on the dashboard, one displayed immediately behind the windscreen, the other further back.

Which is which?

Your account therefore would continue....

On purchasing the second P&D, I displayed this immediately behind the windscreen so that all details were visible, moving aside the expired ticket to do this - see CEO's photo. Or the alternative which is that you left the expired ticket at the front and placed the current one behind. Details still clearly visible?

Now whether these are key issues is another matter, but set out the full facts first. You can then develop your argument from there e.g. relevance of meter feeding comments to an unrelated contravention etc.

challenge_cheaters
Thank you all guys! I have now sent in my appeal. Fingers crossed!
DancingDad
Having just read your faux pas on the other PCN you have, I hope you stuck with HCA or my wording.

For future, post up a draft of what you are intending to send before sending it.
challenge_cheaters
The ticket got cancelled! - Thank you all for your help on this one.



Hillingdon Jokers!
DancingDad
Good result, well done.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.