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josfabfella
I was driving on the A17 near to Boston today. There was nothing in front of me but a stream of oncoming traffic heading towards me. In the distance, on my side of the road, there was a car travelling towards me. I was concerned about the oncoming vehicle. As it approached me, it cut it's way in to the traffic forcing a van driver to brake and flash his lights at the Vectra that cut in. The Vectra effectively forced his way in and left insufficient safe braking distance from the vehicle in front or the van he had just cut up. I considered this dangerous as did the van driver obviously.
I clapped (as you do), the vehicle that had almost hit me head on and then cut everybody up causing alarm to those drivers involved.
The Vectra turned round, pulled in front of me and the passenger leant into the back seat for a hi vis jacket. The blue lights on the unmarked car came on.
I was accused of dangerous driving. I was informed I was to be reported for consideration for the offence of careless, bordering on dangerous , driving.
I feel the police car was in fact the vehicle causing this offence by being on the wrong side of the road, heading to oncoming traffic, exceeding the speed limit and driving without due care and attention to other road users by cutting them up.
He claimed that he was pursuing someone for an offence, but considered mine more severe, hence pulling me up.
I assumed it was a police car due to the fact that he wore a hi vis and had blue lights in the window.
Whilst he allegedly pursude the other car, there were no lights showing he was plod.
The passenger of the car did all the talking and the driver just walked round my vehicle but said nothing.
The passenger was in my face, shouting and threatening. I have a witness who saw it and heard some of it.
The passenger claims he had me on video but denied my request to view it, saying thathe couldn't stop the video to show me. He had a hi vis but no name or number at all on his clothing. It did not say police on the back as I remember. Nor did he wear or show a a cap or hat. He didnt give me his number and only gave me his name when I asked for it.
He asked to see my licence but did not sign anything, give me any paperwork nor get me to sign anything. He just said to expect a summons.
So, the questions i need answering are as follows:
1. Does he have to show me proof there and then of his identity?
2. Can he refuse to let me see the evidence there and then
3. If the video is used in court, can I use it to prove he was speeding and also that he was driving without due care and attention by forcing his way into a gap that wasn't there?
4. If he was speeding and driving dangerously himself, and I showed disapproval, surely he will incriminate himself, will he not?
5. I am an hgv driver, non-smoker and tee total. No points or convictions in 18 years and also trained to test standards by the IAM. What penalty can I expect a magistrate to impose?
6. I assume dangerous driving is hard to prove, so if they push for it should I plea bargain and admit careless instead?
7. He was shouting and in my face when he pulled me up. He was intimidating, hostile and very confrontational. I had abn independant witness, standing nearby, who saw and heard some of it. Should I put in a complaint about his driving causing me concern for my safety and his subsequent attitude.?
8. He said I can't see the evidence til i see it in court. Is that right? How can I mount a defence without seeing the evidence?
9. Does anyone know the Lincolnshire police policy on seeing video evidence at the roadside and also whether he has followed procedure by not showing ID? I only had his word he was plod, and no number or rank on his jacket.
10. Do you think he was just upset cos I insulted him, or will he really have the evidence?
11. I assume the case will be adjourned when I have seen the evidence to allow me to defend against it. Surely it is unreasonable to put me on the spot with evidence there and then and expect me to launch a defence immediatly with no preparation?
I urgently need help on this one please, cos my job depends on it. PLEASE, someone help me.
Rallyman72
Were you cautioned at all - told you will be considered for prosecution, that sort of thing?
josfabfella
Yeah, i was cautioned about harming defence if i don't say something i later rely on etc. However, there were no witnesses to overhear the caution, unless the witness did and he is anti-police cos he has 10 points. I wonder if he didnt show the video cos his mate was driving and it would show him driving dangerously. Also, i wonder if he had it taped at all.
firefly
Shocking story.

Did you show him any identification?
josfabfella
Due to him being hostile, i showed him my driving licence. He did not show me anything to prove he was in fact police at all. Whilst I should not have done what i did, so far as I was concerned it was yet another sales rep with a death wish, cutting everybody up on the way to a meeting. Even if he is a police officer, does that give him the right to drive dangerously, causing fear for other road users and forcing other road users to take avoiding action. What book do the police use as reference for their driving standards?
Surely if he is cutting people up and causing them to fear an accident, and also fear for their safety, that must be a breach of his professional driving standards. Even a police car on an emergency has to drive with due consideration for other road users. He didn't have blue lights on and nothing showing he was either a police officer nor in an emergency. I would assume if he was in pursuit i should have seen his blue lights and also the car he was following (allegedly). What is Lincs police policy on the use of unmarked police cars and the use of blue lights? If they start to follow someone, do they have to write anything down about who they are pursuing at the time? Otherwise they could drive like nutters all day long and then claim to be in pursuit. Also, if they were after someone and his driving was so bad as to warrant alarm from other drivers, surely they are using lack of consideration to other road users by cutting them up and not showing they were police in an emergency.
What is Lincs policy for the use of unmarked cars?
Captain A
IMHO you are stuffed, regardless of rules/dangerous driving/not showing ID - there were two of them and, to quote (from my experience of being stopped in similar circumstances by two of Hampshires finest) 'Who are the magistrates going to believe - us two policemen or YOU ?' I think we know the answer, so all you can do is wait and see. They might just leave it, having had the satisfaction of bullying and humiliating you.
Quattro
I would fight this.

I would put in a strongly worder (though polite) letter to the force making a formal complaint against both of them, and insisting that they are both prosecuted.

One for the dangerous driving and the other for intimidation. Both of which are hardly acceptable as behaviour for Police Officers. Tell them that you intend to take this all of the way and therefore wish to see the video of the pull, including the bit before they first saw you, i.e. when they were overtaking directly towards you and cutting up traffic and the bit after, which may include evidence of them intimidating you.

Write to the proffesional standards department and copy it to the CC.

You will probably get a load of bull to start with, but stick with it.

This is of course your decision, you could just stay quiet and hope it doesn't develop into anything. cool.gif

Good luck either way.
Insider
Are you SURE it was a police vehicle??

It doesn't sound like a "typical stop" and you should have noticed from his jacket they ALL are pretty obvious with POLICE and the high-vis stripes etc

Did you get the registration mark? And were you not "invited" into the vehicle?

Something stinks here - And either it wasn't a police vehicle, or we haven't gotten the whole story......
josfabfella
I was suprised I wasn't invited to sit in the car. I have just gone on the lincs police website and it states " Although an unmarked police car can stop vehicles a constable MUST be in uniform in order to carry out the stop".
He wore dark clothes and a hi vis (but so do security guards). Also there were NO numbers on his shoulders or any part I could see. He did not wear a cap, I did not see one in the car either. I assume to be in uniform, he must have his number visible and also a cap to prove his identity. He did not give his name, introduce himself as PC joe bloogs, or say at any time, I am a police officer. When I asked him his name, he told me his surname, not pc 999 joe bloggs. I thought uniform included hat/cap, or am I wrong? Also, the passenger was the one who talked to me, his mate just wandered around outside the vehicle. I did not see he was wearing a uniform as I was distracted. I reckon they are bluffing and don't have it on video, cos they never gave me anything to sign, nor signed anything for me. Alkl I was told was I would be going to court. I think that if this happens i can prove to the court that they cut in to moving traffic without due care and attention to other road users. I fel it's a case of sour grapes for a motorist to dare to let him know the police were (heaven forbid) in the wrong!
So, does 'uniform' include cap and numbers?

Ok quick update here. Just spoken to a traffic guy from Norfolk and he said that if I was done for dangerous driving i would have been arrested on the spot. Also, apparently they would have given me a ticket and he said I should have been able to see the video and he reckons they would be in more trouble than me so he would be suprised if I heard anything.He reckons worst case scenario,would be 3-6 points and a fine. I think i may be ok, but keep the advice coming please cos I may just need it.
crystal
HI,
Sounds really fishy to me, Police always give the number for ID and you would almost certainly got a 7 day wonder.

I suspect either I was not police but someone on a power trip or police who were well out of order. If you have the reg no I would complain. I doubt you will get done as based on the info above the video would be pretty damming for them
Good luck
Crystal
g_attrill
AFAIK most police who stop a vehicle for any offence will give a HO/RT/1 (7 day wonder) because they are so successful at picking up further offences. ALSO I am pretty sure that they would have filled in a form and given a copy to the driver. It might be that they didn't carry them, were they writing the details in a notebook?

As for the video - sadly if there is anything incriminating then they could easily claim at a later date that it was "broken" or not running.

Finally, did you see a video screen, camera, radios, pads etc. in the car? If so then it is pretty likely to be real.

Gareth
josfabfella
I saw in the car and there was like a big pad with letters and number buttons on it. I thought that if they cautuioned me for consideration for prosecution......and it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something you later rely on in court, anything you do say may be given as evidence ..etc.
If they gave me that caution, surely that means that I should have been arrested on the spot, else why caution me? Also, questioned when? They said i will see the evidence when I see it in court. I thought if they refused to show the evidence in a roadside check, they had to inform me the earliest time the video was available for me to view it. I know Notts and Norfolk and most other forces show the tape at the stop to point out the incident. I hope that either they do not have it on tape, the tape would incriminate them, or they are blufing. When they first opened my door to shout at me, they were very hostile. The 1st thing he said was 'where in the highway code does it state you can take your hands off the wheel and clap?'
He didn't say his number or name, did not display his numbers, did not where a cap either. His surname matched one for a traffic officer from lincs police though.
I think they cannot have me without incriminating themselves, or it isnt on tape. If I don't see the tape within a reasonable time, what is to say it has not been altered? It will show they were speeding themselves which is an offence and I believe that they should only be able to exceed the limit if they have blues and twos on. The tape will make interesting viewing.
The safe stopping distance at 60mph is 240 ft (18 car lengths) according to the highway code. Firstly, when they pulled in, there was NEVER that distance in front or behind them. That MUST have been contrary to rule 138 of the highway code. Also, the combined speed when he was coming towards me was 100mph+. So the safe stopping distance was considerabley more than 240 feet.
Rule 105 of the code says The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance, allow a two second gap between you and the vehicle in front on roads carrying fast traffic. He clearly did not do this. Also if he was speeding rule 104 states that the speed limit is the absolute maximum and does not mean it is safe to drive at that speed irrespective of conditions. Driving at speeds too fast for the road and traffic conditions can be dangerous.
Rule 138 states that before overtaking you should make sure that the road is sufficiently clear ahead and there is a suitable gap in front of th vehicle you plan to overtake. Rule 148 states that you must not overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users, for example when you would force another vehicle to swerve or slow down.
I personallly think to prosecute me, they must also be prosecuted themselves. I will wait for a NIP (which is 14 days from offence is it not?) and then put in a complaint about the officers driving and subsequent atttitude with their Inspector. I am hoping if it is on tape and me and the inspector view it, it will show their breaches of the code and also they wer exceeding the speed limit with nothing to show them to be anything other than a normal road user. Surely the point of an unmarked car is to have blue lights to switch on when in a hurry or in heavy traffic during a pursuit. Also, I am sure they should have given me something to show the pull and alleged action to be taken. I think if i was cautuioned for dangerous/careless driving I would have been arrested or why caution me? I would surely be cautioned, arrested, questioned and then either charged and released to appear at court or let off with a caution. I am sure some paperwork should have been signed by me, or given to me.
bows14
Something aint quite right with this version of events. For instance if you were alleged to have committed dangerous driving you would not automatically be arrested unless there were some exceptional circumstances, e.g. your identity was unknown or someone was seriously injured. Are you sure you are telling the truth?????
josfabfella
OF COURSE I AM TELLING THE TRUTH. WOULD I BE ON HERE FOR HELP IF I WAS HAVING A LAUGH!!!!
crystal
QUOTE
OF COURSE I AM TELLING THE TRUTH. WOULD I BE ON HERE FOR HELP IF I WAS HAVING A LAUGH!!!!


Well you may not be but there are some strange folk out there that creep in here !. The thing is this event stinks something is very wrong (not necessarily you, but if not you the "police").

Firstly I am far from sure they were police. The “traffic guy from Norfolk" is just wrong of course you may have been but highly unlikely for this offence (removing hands from the wheel).

If they are going to do you they have 6 months from the date of the offence. I would gather what information you can (photos of road etc). Try to write a clear and concise and factual event of what happened and keep it until you hear something.
Mitigating factors like you need the licence for job won’t get taken into account unless you go to court.

You choice is lay low or make an official complaint. However if there were going to leave it and you complain then it might make them change there mind and depending on the evidence available could leave you in a difficult position. (if it come down to your word against 2 officers).

Have you got house insurance with legal cover ? they may be able to help

Regards
Crystal
josfabfella
What about car insurance with legal cover?
crystal
Hi,

that might cover it - give them a call and see if they can get you some help

regards
Crystal
chadders
Whilst it's still fresh in your mind, sit down and type your own full account of the event as you remember it. May come in handy when you have to recount it numerous times down the line.

Eitherway, I reckon you will be requiring the services of a specialist motoring solicitor - just because of the severity of the charge - there's a list round here somewhere...

click here for list
Streetos
Any update on this case?
josfabfella
ok. Can't say alot at the minute, except it was a police officer and I will let you know the outcome shortly. If you haven't heard from me in a month or so, remind me please.
Dr-Cmos
Any update on this? Was a VERY interesting read.....
josfabfella
OK here's the update.
It was on june 2nd so now they are out of time to summon me to court. I MUST be in court within 6 months of the alleged offence. I have heard nothing. I still think the copper was wrong. He signed my tacho, ( I was in an artic), but put no number on it. I asked for his name and number and he reluctantly gave me his surname. He never said 'Pc Bloggs, Inspector Bloggs' etc, which made me think he may have been impersonating an officer. It is an offence to impersonate a police officer but by not claiming to be Pc anybody, would he have actually been done for impersonating when he never mentioned he was an officer I wonder?
Anyway, a few hours later I phoned Lincs police who had an officer in the force at that day by that name. However I have a confidential email from an insider in Lincs police who confirmed that firstly an officer by that name was on anti car crime duties on that day ( although in an unmarked Skoda not a Vectra) and as he was on anti car crme duties he was NOT in uniform. Also the email stated that an officer on anti car crime duties should NEVER really reveal his identity unless forced to do so, when apprehending a joyrider etc. The email also stated the officer in question was unprofessional. It gave the details of his inspector in case of quieries. I chose to let it lie rather than antagonise a copper with an unprofessional, aggressive and hostile attitude. However it transpires that my ex Chief Inspector friend trained the officer's Inspector in question and my friend offered to attend court as an expert traffice officer witness. He told me that he personally haes coppers who leave you wondering for months and that in his opinion the officer was a pratt.
It is interesting to note that since my alleged offence 6 officer from the officer's station have been forced to resign after harassing a woman on a train whilst off duty (and on the way to a party I believe). I think it must have helped my cast that 6 officers were proven to be less than professional and if you were the tation inspector, would you want complaints against 2 more. I think their integrity as officer from that station would automatically have been in the back of the minds of any magistrate.
My company has ex high ranking officers (chief supers etc) as head of security and they made discreet enquiries. NOTHING was logged at the station he worked for either about myself, or my vehicle. The oficer who pulled me must have panicked when he found out investigations were taking place as he phoned my boss later and claimed the offence was so serious he had bypassed his boss and handed the tape straight to the CPS. My ex chief inspector friend of Lincs police traffic reckoned that PC dick had started to panic and was getting worried about a complaint I may make about him. I still have the details of a witness to his bad attitude and behaviour who will back me up in court or during an investigation.As my mate says, you can buy a high vis and blue lights for the back window off ebay and the 'officer' could have been a security guard.
S basically to answer the questions asked about the roadside pull.
1 It was a genuine copper.
2 He never showed me ID.
3 He never had 'Police' on his clothing or vehicle or shoulder numbers.
4 Lincs police have a green 03 plate vectra 3.2 litre with NO markings except for lights in the rear window that are not visible til activated.
5 The vectra does NOT have any more aeriels than a normal car.

SO LINCS POLICE HAVE A DARK METALLIC GREEN 03 PLATE 3.2 VECTRA. BEWARE PEOPLE!!!!!!!
Jayen4
Well,I don't usually say much on this forum,but reading this whole post has really annoyed me !!

First of all,if this 'so called' copper had come at me with that attitude,he would have got precisely nowhere and would have got himself into BIG trouble !! He was a far bigger lawbreaker than you were and should have known better.

I once had a 'run-in' with 2 detectives,who were behaving like arseholes. They were doing a similar thing to this guy,but we were going in the same direction. They effectively tried to run me off the road (and I was driving a 24 ton 6 wheeler !) and didn't like it one bit,when I didn't back down. They came soo close to having their car flattened !! I effectively told them to piss off and stop behaving like they owned the road,as they would end up getting killed !
Anyhow,they concocted (sp?) a right old fairy tale by the time they got back to the station and I got a call from the superintendant,so I told him what really happened and that if he didn't deal with these 2,then I was going to take it ALL the way !! I received a 'cop out' letter a couple of weeks later, saying that the matter had been dealt with and there would be 'no further action' against me. Yeah right !!
The police really piss me off,when they think that they're above the law themselves !!

So,what I'm really saying here,is....go after them !! Events since your 'aquaintance' have proved they were arrogant,un proffesional and downright lawbreakers themselves ! I'd go for it,big time !! mad.gif
Squirrel
Interesting read... and I can see both sides.

Sounds like two coppers having a stressful day and (wrongly) taking it out on the person they'd stopped.

However, looking at it from the other side, a couple of times I've had people do the "slow hand clap" thing when I've overtaken them - perfectly safely, but they obviously didn't think so. And my first thoughts were "if I was one of the BiB I'd pull them and give them a severe warning for that".

I'd actually like to see someone get done for dangerous driving for taking their hands off the wheel and clapping just because they've been overtaken. As I've said on many occasions to a friend of mine "unless you have a Bugatti Veyron there's always going to be somebody with a faster car than you". Of course it needs to make the national press - and it might stop these idiots who pull stunts like that when you overtake them.

Overtaking isn't dangerous when done properly. What is dangerous is when the muppet who you're overtaking does one of the following:

- Takes hands off wheel and claps
- Makes a rude gesture at you as you pass
- Flashes their lights at you after you pull back in
- Closes up the gap you were about to slot into
- Puts their boot down as you pull out

1 and possibly 2 would be classed as "driving without due care and attention". 3 is annoying, but nothing more - sticking two fingers up to the guy behind that just flashed you before accelerating away usually solves that. 4 and 5 are "dangerous driving" - in fact the friend mentioned above has been known to do 4 and 5 before, although fortunately he has a very low powered car so it doesn't really cause anyone a problem.

To the original poster - while I hope you don't get dragged through court I also hope you've learned a valuable lesson... keep both hands on the wheel and don't do silly tricks like clapping your hands just because someone else is driving like a pillock. Two wrongs don't make a right.
bobtheboater
QUOTE (Squirrel @ Sun, 10 Dec 2006 - 08:45) *
Overtaking isn't dangerous when done properly. What is dangerous is when the muppet who you're overtaking does one of the following:


- Closes up the gap you were about to slot into


Depends on the gap size. I would never condone closing up the gap but if the overtaker is queue hopping and using the "safe distance space" between vehicles to do it, then IMO that is dangerous driving.

I'm not suggesting that you do that but there are plenty out there that do.
Jayen4
Squirrel.....Your last post sounds very much like you are a police officer....are you ??

And from the original post....Those 2 coppers had absolutely NO right to behave in the way that was reported !! They were acting just like bullies !! One thing which I DO NOT tolerate,no matter who they are !
Squirrel
Jayen: No, but I am a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists and the Association of British Drivers.

I drive a car with a reasonable amount of power (A4 Quattro, the 2.0 TDI 170bhp engine) and have no trouble accelerating past 2-3 cars in a procession when the lead car is driving too slowly. Most of the time this is no problem, but sometimes the lead car takes offence to being overtaken and flashes their headlights and makes a "tosser" sign (or worse). Well... if you don't like being overtaken... drive faster and stop holding up a queue of cars behind you, you muppet.

And yes, I'm with you 100% on the original post. They had no right to act the way they did - but perhaps they were right to pull the OP over and give him a severe talking to. Taking both hands off the wheel is "driving without due care and attention".

QUOTE
Depends on the gap size. I would never condone closing up the gap but if the overtaker is queue hopping and using the "safe distance space" between vehicles to do it, then IMO that is dangerous driving.


Yes, but two wrongs don't make a right. If someone else is queue-hopping then by closing the gap you're turning a minor hazard into a potential head-on collision. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, if it happens right alongside you the chances are you're going to be involved.

The advice from the ABD is that if you're behind a vehicle you're not going to overtake then you should leave a bigger gap to facilitate overtaking. Instead of crawling up the exhaust of the guy in front of you when you have no intention of trying to pass, simply drop back and leave a gap of 8 seconds. Then if someone does want to get past they can overtake you, drop in without encroaching on your stopping distance and pass the next vehicle as soon as it's safe to do so. "Don't procession - leave a gap."
josfabfella
Tell you what sqiurell. Look at the damage a car does to a lorry driver in a head on impact and tell me I should never react. The coppers were wrong and I belive a lot of people in my position would hav forced them off the road deliberately. Lorry drivers get hijacked this way frequently, by being forced off the road. I too am IAM trained and to pass an IAM test there is no need to drive in snow, on ice, in the dark or on a skid pan. So whilst IAM members have generally better driving skillls and observation the test isn't rocket science (been there, done that).
If someone almost kills you by driving like a twat I think reacting is natural.........unless you are offering to tell my 5 year old son that a nasty policeman driving like an idiot has just wiped his dad off the face of the earth, and he will never see his dad again are you?
Also as a lorry driver and someone with 18 years experience, no accidents, NEVER a point on my licence, worldwide driving experience, and driving over the equivalent of ten years average driving every year and passing 6 driving tests as well as regular assessments, I feel i do not need anyone to tell me I am doing it wrong.
Police think they are above the law, not representatives of it.
Squirrel
Yes, and like I said I can see both sides of it. Those coppers were out of order - but taking your hands off the wheel and clapping is just plain stupid.

If you do not have both hands on the wheel then you are not in full control of your vehicle.

If you've done IAM then you'll know this.

Yes, the other person may be driving like a tosser. Taking one hand off the wheel to make a gesture to this effect is one thing (at least you've still got one hand on the wheel so you've got 50% control) although not recommended, especially when you can blast the horn or flash the headlights to say the same thing whilst keeping both hands on the wheel. Which, although not technically correct, isn't "driving without due care and attention".

From what you described you deserved to be pulled over and warned - politely. But yes, I do think those coppers were well out of order having a go at you the way they did. Like I said I can see both sides of it.

I do a fairly hefty mileage myself (30,000+ miles per year) and yes, I see all manner of idiots on the roads, and levels of stupidity that leave you scratching your head (not whilst driving obviously) in amazement. For example the other day whilst waiting at traffic lights. There are two lanes on the approach to the lights depending on whether you're turning left or right. Some woman in a 206 pulls out from the right hand lane and tries to overtake - and ends up driving straight into the crash barrier at the start of the central reservation. The airbag goes off, the front of the car is mangled... and she climbs out of the car still clutching her mobile phone to her ear. Darwin tapping her on the shoulder from the back seat, perhaps?

So yes, I sympathize with idiocy, but there's no excuse for the "slow hand clap" brigade. No matter how stupid someone else is being, you don't need to make the situation worse by not being in proper control of your vehicle.
Bing o
QUOTE
I would never condone closing up the gap but if the overtaker is queue hopping and using the "safe distance space" between vehicles to do it, then IMO that is dangerous driving.


No it's not.

I see queues of traffic caused by:

A tractor/caravan.

then

An old biddy in a slow car who drives 2 inches from the rear of said slow moving vehicle.

No-one else will overtake, because

1) They are mindless sheep like mongs who can't think enough to overtake.

2) Their cars are too slow to overtake more than one car at a time, and there is now a line of mongs, all 6 inches away from the next cars chuff

so, why can't people acknowledge that a high powered sports car will be able to overtake more cars, more often, and that rather trying to force said sportscar into oncoming traffic/hedge, said motorist accepts that being overtaken is not akin to someone fucking your wife, or pointing out that you have a micro-penis!

Rant off
Rallyman72
QUOTE (Bing o @ Mon, 11 Dec 2006 - 14:31) *
QUOTE
I would never condone closing up the gap but if the overtaker is queue hopping and using the "safe distance space" between vehicles to do it, then IMO that is dangerous driving.


No it's not.

I see queues of traffic caused by:

A tractor/caravan.

then

An old biddy in a slow car who drives 2 inches from the rear of said slow moving vehicle.

No-one else will overtake, because

1) They are mindless sheep like mongs who can't think enough to overtake.

2) Their cars are too slow to overtake more than one car at a time, and there is now a line of mongs, all 6 inches away from the next cars chuff

so, why can't people acknowledge that a high powered sports car will be able to overtake more cars, more often, and that rather trying to force said sportscar into oncoming traffic/hedge, said motorist accepts that being overtaken is not akin to someone fucking your wife, or pointing out that you have a micro-penis!

Rant off
I'm not sure that it is totally down to mindlessness or, put another way, lack of consideration. Isn't some of this down to the competitive nature of man (as a species) where he just has to be number one, the alpha male (or in some cases female). In such circumstances there will always be a wish to be at the head of a queue - as such you will see aggressive behaviour (precarious overtaking) to get to the head of a queue and defensive behaviour (closing gaps) to maintain that place. It can also be down to a lack of understanding of the ability of another driver and/or car and an assumption that all are equal!

Edit - whilst I fully appreciate and understand the OP's 'demonstration' of his appreciation of the opportunistic and potentially unsafe overtake by what turned out to be a police car no safe driving course or manual would ever suggest that you should have both hands off the wheel. As has already been pointed out a single handed gesture should be sufficient. I have been tempted to do as the OP has myself and it is difficult to avoid sometimes - you have my sympathy.
Bing o
QUOTE
I'm not sure that it is totally down to mindlessness or, put another way, lack of consideration. Isn't some of this down to the competitive nature of man (as a species) where he just has to be number one, the alpha male (or in some cases female). In such circumstances there will always be a wish to be at the head of a queue - as such you will see aggressive behaviour (precarious overtaking) to get to the head of a queue and defensive behaviour (closing gaps) to maintain that place. It can also be down to a lack of understanding of the ability of another driver and/or car and an assumption that all are equal!


Its frickin sheep in their bland little boxes, going about their bland little business, that see someone in a sports car making progress (even, whisper it enjoying driving), and feel that they need to teach them a "lesson" by closing up the gap.

So you're jealous that you run little Eric and Erica to gymkhana and swim meets in your mondego? "Oh, I'll teach that flash git in his nice car a lesson" "How dare he have more in life than two junk food guzzling chavs" "Head on into a lorry, that'll learn him"

What is it about driving that turns otherwise pleasent people into murderous psychopaths? <on occasion>
kingjohn
I have to chip in now with my 2 pence worth.

Firstly; those police were utterly out of order, and I'd like to think that unless they had produced proof of being police (warrant card), I'd have just driven off and reported to the "real" police that there were troublemakers on that bit of road.

Secondly; Bobtheboater, I think your problem stems from your attitude to driving itself. This is revealed by using the word queue-jumping. There is no such thing as a "queue" if the vehicles are moving, it is simply traffic. Who are you to hold up somebody else's progress just because you're too slow, or timid, to overtake?
Insider
Keep it nice people, i'm watching
Last Man In Europe
Clearly, the police's actions were inexcusable. It reinforces the actions of a few reflect dearly on the perception of the majority.

I too, encounter gap-closers when overtaking. In my opinion their actions are worse than careless - they are reckless. I consider them to be self-righteous bigots with little to show for effort made in their powerless lives.

I have found the best way to deal with them is to simply look at them blankly when our cars are side-by-side*. They soon stop laughing and pull back - only a disturbed psychotic crosses the line to actually wanting someone to die in an accident. This method has not failed to work for me in over ten years, even when there has been oncoming traffic.

It's best not to antagonise the situation when you pull back in. The other party will have no reason to have contempt for you and will most likely reflect on their conduct. Maybe even a lesson learned.

Every time I get in my car or on my bike I accept that I will encounter complete idiots on the roads and that I may be killed by one of them whilst minding my own business. That's the contract that any road user makes with chance.

I hope this tip is of use to you.

*Of course, this means taking your eyes off the road.
Mr Nervous
I'm always torn when 'queue jumping' (or 'making progress' as I prefer to call it) about whether to go for a smooth ease off and a slot into the gap or to storm past then jump on the brakes and slot in.

Politeness says by showing brake lights you irritate the person behind you, but lessons learned previously caution against the slow slot-in as it gives gap-closers the opportunity to do so...
Streetos
It really annoys me when someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front, especially if they indicate as they pull in. On the other hand, I get even more annoyed when the people in front won't overtake without a written invitation forcing me to wait for a gap big enough to pass the lot or do the Q jumping thing myself.
I guess it's a case of there only being two types of drivers, the tossers who drive slower than me and the maniacs who drive faster! angry.gif
Rallyman72
QUOTE (Streetos @ Tue, 12 Dec 2006 - 22:05) *
It really annoys me when someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front, especially if they indicate as they pull in. On the other hand, I get even more annoyed when the people in front won't overtake without a written invitation forcing me to wait for a gap big enough to pass the lot or do the Q jumping thing myself.
I guess it's a case of there only being two types of drivers, the tossers who drive slower than me and the maniacs who drive faster! angry.gif
Let's step back from the really emotive side of this for a moment - Why does it annoy people? Is it because of the competitive nature of man I've already mentioned or is it because of a perception that you are now further back in the queue than you were before (but this is related to the competitive nature and the Alpha male/female issue). Or could it even be because of a feeling that your 'personal' space has been stolen. Is it also possibly due to a perception that having another car in front of you will delay you and make you late arriving at the end of your journey.

Next time this happens just remember the car that passed you and when you hit traffic see where they are - it is quite often, unless you are very near the head of the queue, only a matter of two or three cars ahead of you. What additional risks has that driver taken to get there, 50 feet in front of you? With some drivers they are considerable risks and one is better off letting them go so that you do not get involved in their accident.

Having said that I do get irritated by the drivers who obviously do not know what their car is capable of and sit there until there is a gap big enough to navigate Titanic through before they overtake. I am not advocating driving slowly - it is the last thing I normally enjoy but a bit of detached thought about these things can actually act to calm one down and avoid impulsive actions that can land one in trouble or worse.
kingjohn
I agree with you rallyman, but I think the main problem is that people consider traffic to be a "queue". As I said before it's down to preconceptions; call it a queue and anyone moving past is "pushing in", a very un-British thing to do.
If you consider it traffic, and accept that no 2 drivers have the same combination of performance, experience/ability, motivation to press on then why does it matter if people want to travel faster than you want to/are able to?
And if everyone left a suitable braking distance, there would never be an issue of cutting in to gaps, as there would be plenty of room in the first place.
Last Man In Europe
I dare say that one or two of use actually enjoy the feeling of being able to overtake safely and relish the privilege of being able to demonstrate our skill. As mentioned earlier, the actions of the few reflect dearly on the perception of the majority.

I for one, care not for using an extra pound of fuel to advance a few places in traffic. I enjoy my privilege of being licensed to drive and use that privilege in a way that leaves me feeling fully satisfied without compromising the safety of other road users.

If I witness bad driving - I bite my lip, as it would only serve to stress me. Stress is the biggest killer in this country, more so than heart disease. Stress takes years off people's lives without them even knowing.

If someone is rude or uncourteous to me then I may take a different approach. I fully support a the 'use them or lose them' imitative for motorists who repeatedly fail to indicate. As a motorcyclist, I am well aware of the dangers of motorists who fail to indicate.

Everyone makes mistakes and I think everyone should accept that when they use the roads. However, manners, courtesy and duty of care have minimum standards that need to be met to ensure continuity and the preservation of safety.
Bing o
QUOTE
However, manners, courtesy and duty of care have minimum standards that need to be met to ensure continuity and the preservation of safety.


Surely you mean more speed cameras?

<gets coat, slopes off to find rock to hide under...>
Last Man In Europe
Indeed! More cameras! I rue the day when biometric filters are fitted to cars from new... (not).

Any news on this case josfabfella?
josfabfella
Sorry, yeah I haven't been on here for a while. I have my own website and tend to come here when I need help and advice.
I never heard another thing. Having said that I am annoyed as I am someone with an excellent driving record (how many people do you know who do 100k+ a year and have never had a point or fault accident in over 20 years driving nowdays) but two coppers thought they owned the road. It's amazing really, as near me a couple if years back two coppers rolled their Volvo on a bend but they 'must have hit oil on the road' (yawn) and flipped it. Anyone else wouldn't have 'hit oil on the road' , andone else would have been driving like a nutter and ended up in court!
The police treat the public with no respect whatsoever but then want the public to help them out.
It's like coppers alientating truckers. In the night the truckers are the main eyes and ears if the police, especially on trunk roads and motorways etc. I personally have forgotten the number of times I have put out vehicle fires single handed whilst waiting for the fire brigade (using my own extinguishers that cost a fortune to replace), pulled people from burning cars, ditches and car crashes in general and I call the emergency services quite often to people in trouble on my travels. I dont HAVE to do any of those things, I CHOOSE to although it is the job of the emergency services and 'Not my job mate'.
I think the police should use more discretion, more common sense and have more respect for those who help make their life easier. If it wasn't for my actions in the past, and no doubt the futre, some copper will be knocking on a door and telling a family that 'Little Jonny' got burned to a sinder cos a lorry driver with no respect for the police turned a blind eye and decided it 'wasn't his job' to save a life.

So my advice to all the coppers on this site (and we all know you are here!), is go and chase the smackhead joyriders by all means (and if they happen to 'fall' a few times on the way down the police station steps, then so be it), go catch the boy racers who are a menace to everyone else, go and pull the foreign lorry drivers will no tachos or unsafe lories who ignore all UK driving rules, but on the other hand be just a little more human and a little less hostile to the rest of us and we can all live happpily ever after can't we?
X
captain swoop
so what you are saying is they should ignore you if you break the law?

OK.
josfabfella
Er.......NO!
What I am saying is the police should set and example and they should use a bit of common sense instead of having a chip (or whole potato) on their shoulders.

How can they expect people to all drive perfectly at all times when they are forever smashing cars up or occassionally breaking the law themselves. A couple of years ago if I saw the coppers struggling to arrest someone I would have helped out ( I actually taught restraining techniques for free in my own time to the police). Now if I saw a copper getting his head kicked in, I'd look at the way they have treated me in the past and thing 'Tough!"
The attitude of the police have turned me from a supporter to someone who really wouldn't help them if their lives depended on it. It is called KARMA!
captain swoop
Until you need their help I suppose.
spanner345
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Wed, 26 Nov 2008 - 15:17) *
Until you need their help I suppose.

It's their job to help us, it isn't our job to help them.
southpaw82
QUOTE (josfabfella @ Wed, 26 Nov 2008 - 15:15) *
( I actually taught restraining techniques for free in my own time to the police).


You're an approved UDT instructor to Home Office Standards?
fedup2
QUOTE (josfabfella @ Fri, 2 Jun 2006 - 17:36) *
I was driving on the A17 near to Boston today. There was nothing in front of me but a stream of oncoming traffic heading towards me. In the distance, on my side of the road, there was a car travelling towards me. I was concerned about the oncoming vehicle. As it approached me, it cut it's way in to the traffic forcing a van driver to brake and flash his lights at the Vectra that cut in. The Vectra effectively forced his way in and left insufficient safe braking distance from the vehicle in front or the van he had just cut up. I considered this dangerous as did the van driver obviously.
I clapped (as you do), the vehicle that had almost hit me head on and then cut everybody up causing alarm to those drivers involved.

My twopenneth
I see everyday people who think they are qualified to judge others and as a rule actually lack reasonable judgment ending up doing some very very dangerous antics on our roads.
This looks like a classic case of miss judgement and over reaction to me.
I put myself in this positon and heres what i would have done,and without a thought,and i would be very unlikley to remember it today.
Simple really,i would have moved as far to the left as possible and if need be braked to allow more time,but my guess is there was no such need(you didnt mention any actions taken).
Moving to the police vehicle, if thats what it was, he should have been free to pass the vehicles he was aiming to pass without hinderance, and would have been had the vehicles he was passing travelling at a safe distance from each other.I suspect that the stream of traffic approaching were all stuck behind a slow driver with the rest dangerously bunched the vectra probably wasnt the only one who wanted to make some progress but typically today hindered by others inconsiderate and more often than not nowadays dangerous drivers.
I think that many poor quality motorists are doing far too many dangerous acts using what they believe others to have done as an excuse for doing dangerous acts is getting very very worrying and really really needs dealing with.
Sorry its not quite the positive note.
Landshark
I'm sure somewhere like the highway code it states something like you must assist others that overtake you?

I agree with josfabfella in some of the things he has said, and i commend him for helping people that are in need of help on the roads, (those people need your help and don't stop helping them)

However i feel you are taring the plod with the same brush. Yes i have met some that need personality transplants, however there are many who are the opposite and helpful and use discression, so its a shame you would let them get their head kick in?

Its the same as me saying i think all lorry drivers are @rse's cause i met a couple who thought they own the whole road and sat blocking two lanes etc...... But thats not the case because i know lots of lorry drivers who would help anyone and are very patient drivers.
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