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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2017
Date of the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 12 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A40 nr North Wharf Rd W2 to A40 nr Dorando Cl W12 W/B (01610201), United Kingdom
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I don't recall the incident at all. I don't recall who was driving on that day at that time. It could have been my wife or me.

I have 3 points, she has none. I have a UK licence, she has a French licence.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 19:50:59 +0000

EDIT: The NIP is for doing 47mph in a 40mph zone.
Is this a regular journey?
There are a number of things you can do about this, first of all sit down with your wife and try to reconstruct your day, who was doing what at around the time of the alleged offence, it may be helpful to look at your diaries, phone records, credit card statements and anything similar. Write back to the police asking for any available photographs to assist in identifying the driver, making no mention of proof or evidence which you are not entitled to at this stage. Most forces will send these or direct you to a website, Truvelo cameras photograph from the front and may show the driver clearly, other cameras produce shots from the rear but may still be helpful in distinguishing a man from a woman.
This does not stop the time running on the 28 days you have to respond. Failing to identify the driver is a much more serious offence than speeding, so do not risk that.

It may still not be possible to be 100% certain about the driver, and in that case we advise you to name the most likely driver, but do not put anything on the form to suggest any uncertainty. If you do that or fail to name a driver you will find yourself in court and likely to be receiving 6 points and a large fine.

Who it would be most convenient to name plays no part in this at all. The driver is likely to be offered a speed awareness course provided they have not done such a course for an offence within the previous three years from the current offence, failing that a fixed penalty of £100 + 3 points. These can be offered equally to a holder of a UK or EU licence.
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Thu, 14 Dec 2017 - 20:19) *
Is this a regular journey?

Very regular. It's the main road to and from our house.

Thanks Logician. A couple of questions:

It seems to me that this is an average speed check as the location given is from a point A to point B. Does that sound right to you? If that's the case do you know which type of photo would have been taken (front or rear)?

Regarding the fine, you suggest a fixed penalty of £100 may be issued. I thought the new laws determined fines based on weekly income. Is this not yet in effect?
There are no new laws - poor reporting by the press.

New sentencing guidelines were released but this is only for court cases. Fixed penalties are unchanged. That excess won't be going to court unless you make it.

Front or rear will depend on the exact camera setup - could be either but as a regular journey you can check?
The statutory defence to the S172 charge says this:

“A person shall not be guilty of an offence…if he shows that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.”

This means that you must demonstrate to the court the degree of “diligence” you have exercised when trying to establish who was driving. It is a high hurdle to clear and simply turning up and saying “dunno who was driving” won’t cut the mustard. You will be expected to show that you have taken all the steps Logician suggests and possibly more. The price of failure is high – a hefty fine, six points and insurance grief for a number of years.
If either of you have android phones Google might well tell you where you were at the time of the incident.

QUOTE (Slatz @ Thu, 14 Dec 2017 - 22:12) *
If either of you have android phones Google might well tell you where you were at the time of the incident.

Not much good if they are in the car together.
QUOTE (pulpo @ Thu, 14 Dec 2017 - 21:39) *
It seems to me that this is an average speed check as the location given is from a point A to point B.

It is a SPECS location. It could be set up as either front or rear facing, so photographs may or may not help.
I just drove through today and the cameras photograph the rear. I know it's been said that it's risky to not name the driver and that we need to carry out due diligence. However, if we ask for photos from the police and they are of no use, which they won't be, then is that enough to be not guilty of S172 failure to provide?
QUOTE (pulpo @ Fri, 15 Dec 2017 - 19:59) *
is that enough to be not guilty of S172 failure to provide?

I think the most anyone can say is "maybe". You’d be ill-advised to rely on that alone as your reasonable diligence.
Bear in mind photo's are to identify the offence and the vehicle only. They may incidentally identify (or assist in) the driver.

If you use that as your single reasonable diligence then it will almost certainly fail at court. (All rear facing camera's would be made redundant over night - some may rejoice though...)
Okay, thanks for all your help. I appreciate you all sharing your wisdom.
A court will take some convincing that two people between them cannot work out which of them was driving their car on a certain road at a certain time just 12 days previously.
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