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van
I am British but live in Spain. In the summer we always come over in our Volkswagen Transporter Mixta van with Spanish number plates and visited family in London in August,just like every year. This morning 2 notifications from EPC plc arrived saying that we had entered the Low emission zone and that for each infraction I owed 1200€ and if I don't pay by 06/01/18 I will owe 1800€ a piece.
Firstly the van is only 9 months old so is low emissions, it is not a work van, it can only carry 7 passengers, maybe it is meant to be registered but as a visitor I didn't know and have not had any problems before. But the main complaint is that the first information I have had of the infraction was with the arrival of today's letter. I was never given a chance to pay it. ( Last year I received a speeding fine from France which I paid as I knew I was at fault). This 100 pound fine has now been multiplied by 10 and they are threatening a further 50% increase.
So is this legal when this is the first notification? What is the legality of EPC plc? Thanks
cp8759
I think you will find most answers on https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emissi...lez?intcmp=2263
Regarding EPC plc, because a PCN is a civil debt, which can be enforced as such anywhere in Europe (and quite a few countries outside Europe for that matter). They are simply collection agents acting on behalf of TFL.
Logician
It is clearly unjust that the first you hear of this is when the charge has been multiplied upwards. There is an appeal process explained HERE

Meanwhile this is in the wrong section of this site
cp8759
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 13 Dec 2017 - 23:37) *
It is clearly unjust that the first you hear of this is when the charge has been multiplied upwards. There is an appeal process explained HERE

Meanwhile this is in the wrong section of this site

I'm not sure appealing to the tribunal is the correct approach in this case. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emissi...rcement-process states that:

What if I don't pay it?
If you don't pay your PCN or make a representation within 28 calendar days, it will increase to £1,500 or £750 (depending on vehicle size)


The issue here appears to be that the basic fine has been increased to £750 (approximately 850 euros) plus, I assume, EPC's costs.

I think the first thing you need to do is find your PCN number, and confirm that a charge certificate has been issued (This should be on the letter form EPC but if not you should be able to call TFL and get them to confirm), once you have this information you use form PE3 from http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCT...t_forms_id=2710 to get the charge certificate cancelled on the grounds that you never received the PCN.

Without looking into it further, at this point TFL should either A) give up or B) give you the opportunity to pay the original fine of £100, depending on how the regulations deal with limitation issues in this scenario.
van
Thanks for the suggestions, will investigate these. Any more ideas gladly received.

And sorry for being in the wrong section...where should I be?
StuartBu
QUOTE (van @ Thu, 14 Dec 2017 - 08:47) *
Thanks for the suggestions, will investigate these. Any more ideas gladly received.

And sorry for being in the wrong section...where should I be?


It's been reported and a Mod will sort it...if necessary
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Dec 2017 - 08:21) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 13 Dec 2017 - 23:37) *
It is clearly unjust that the first you hear of this is when the charge has been multiplied upwards. There is an appeal process explained HERE

Meanwhile this is in the wrong section of this site

I'm not sure appealing to the tribunal is the correct approach in this case. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emissi...rcement-process states that:

What if I don't pay it?
If you don't pay your PCN or make a representation within 28 calendar days, it will increase to £1,500 or £750 (depending on vehicle size)


The issue here appears to be that the basic fine has been increased to £750 (approximately 850 euros) plus, I assume, EPC's costs.

I think the first thing you need to do is find your PCN number, and confirm that a charge certificate has been issued (This should be on the letter form EPC but if not you should be able to call TFL and get them to confirm), once you have this information you use form PE3 from http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCT...t_forms_id=2710 to get the charge certificate cancelled on the grounds that you never received the PCN.

Without looking into it further, at this point TFL should either A) give up or B) give you the opportunity to pay the original fine of £100, depending on how the regulations deal with limitation issues in this scenario.


This is good advice but an application to file a SD out of time will also be needed
stamfordman
It's in the right section now. As noted, if you have the PCN numbers you should be able to check them on TFL's site and see what the sequence of events was.

TFL says:

Non-UK registered vehicles
Recovery of unpaid penalties to non-UK registered vehicles is undertaken by a dedicated European debt recovery agency and we have established links with many European vehicle licensing agencies. We will always issue and recover penalties against vehicles registered outside the United Kingdom wherever possible.

I wonder if they tried to send PCNs via Spain's DVLA. I doubt it.
Churchmouse
"If you're driving a vehicle registered outside the UK, you'll need to register it with us to let us know that it meets the LEZ emissions standards so we can add your vehicle to our database.
It's important that you do this, because if you drive in the LEZ without registering, even if your vehicle meets the standards, you'll have to pay the daily charge, or may receive a Penalty Charge Notice."
I believe the French are doing something similar in certain of their major cities. I bet they catch plenty of foreign motorists...securing payment therefrom is probably less common.

--Churchmouse
cp8759
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Thu, 14 Dec 2017 - 17:24) *
"If you're driving a vehicle registered outside the UK, you'll need to register it with us to let us know that it meets the LEZ emissions standards so we can add your vehicle to our database.
It's important that you do this, because if you drive in the LEZ without registering, even if your vehicle meets the standards, you'll have to pay the daily charge, or may receive a Penalty Charge Notice."
I believe the French are doing something similar in certain of their major cities. I bet they catch plenty of foreign motorists...securing payment therefrom is probably less common.

--Churchmouse

All true, but still the OP should be given the opportunity to pay the original £100 penalty. That's why it's great to take a GB registered car outside of the EEA, you can then drive around without a care in the world...
van
Thanks to everybody who has responded and helped to point us in the right direction.

Can anyone give us guidance/answers to these questions?

Should we start our appeal process through EPCplc or appeal To London Transport or maybe both at the same time?

Whilst we are appealing how do we stop the fines multiplying? we currently have 2 at 1200€ but are threatened with an increase to 1800 a piece if not paid by the 6th Jan. 2018 and it says it could go up to a maximum of 5000 a piece. Does the appeal process effectively put this on hold?



stamfordman
Have you got the PCN numbers?

van
We have a lot of numbers on the letters from EPCplc but none of them say PCN so maybe or maybe not, the letters are in Spanish but it does not say anything that clearly translates to penalty charge number. We wanted to decide on our strategy before ringing transport for london.
stamfordman
I have a horrible feeling that when TFL processes a foreign VRM it just goes directly to the European debt agency. See this, page 26:

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/eops-schedule2-e...-operations.pdf

and also

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/schedule-2-enfor...rations-sor.pdf

and see this oldish FOI request:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/unpa...harges_by_for_2

However, if the vehicle is not registered in the UK, it will not be
possible to issue an actual penalty charge notice. European Parking
Collection Plc (EPC) has been authorised by TfL to act on our behalf in
administering the issuing of penalty charges to the keepers of vehicles
registered outside the UK.

I think you have to call TFL and ask exactly what the current procedures are with Spanish VRMs and whether there is a way out of this.

And see this story - which doesn't say whether he got out of it - 24,000 euro!

https://www.pressreader.com/spain/costa-alm...282896613969978

And TFL's delegation to EPC:

https://www.epcplc.com/files/poa/67
Tartarus
QUOTE (van @ Fri, 15 Dec 2017 - 10:19) *
We have a lot of numbers on the letters from EPCplc but none of them say PCN so maybe or maybe not, the letters are in Spanish but it does not say anything that clearly translates to penalty charge number. We wanted to decide on our strategy before ringing transport for london.

The number won't begin with PCN, post up a redacted photo/scan of the letter(s) and the folks here should be able to tell you what the PCNs are for looking the offences up.
van
I will post the letters later but currently still at work.

Stamfordman has got me really worried, as we were in London for over a week driving around happily oblivious to all this. So our big fear is that more fines are on their way .

Could anyone point us in the direction of a good traffic lawyer, please? Thanks.

and thanks to everybody who has helped/is helping to get my head round this.
stamfordman
Didn't mean to worry you. I doubt you'll get any more from EPC as they seem to bundle things up and do them all at once.

Try a private message to the OP on this thread to see what he's done (or not done) although he only posted 1 post:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=116186

Is your vehicle compliant? If it is they are raising penalties against not registering not for high emissions and I would have thought there must be a way to negotiate this.
Neil B
There seems to be confusion over the original GBP amounts in this case, including
£100.

The original full amount was most likely £1000.
It follows that nothing here is 'out of time' as far as I see.

Neither does anything reflect a Charge Cert having been issued or
PCNs being missed.

Most likely, these are the PCNs !
Hence -
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 14 Dec 2017 - 12:43) *
Non-UK registered vehicles
Recovery of unpaid penalties to non-UK registered vehicles is undertaken by a dedicated European debt recovery agency and we have established links with many European vehicle licensing agencies. We will always issue and recover penalties against vehicles registered outside the United Kingdom wherever possible.

I wonder if they tried to send PCNs via Spain's DVLA. I doubt it.


But here we are again; guessing game cos no ******* docs shown! angry4.gif

And I doubt the PCN Nos are not there.

and maybe the discount amount E600 is on there too?
van
I believe the PCN numbers are LZ29093160 and LZ2909634. I can post both the complete letters but they're all in Spanish so don't think that will be very helpful. If I'm wrong tell me.
stamfordman
You need to tell us what the letters say - presumably you read Spanish.

I wonder if you can check the PCNs online - try:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn

but I expect it's for UK VRMs only.
van
Sorry I'm so slow at working these things out but now understand why everyone has been asking "What's the PCN"

Both say the same (dates fractionally different but both times 5 days after the infraction).This is the result at one of them:-

You cannot pay this PCN

View the status history of this PCN
Date Status
23/08/2017 10:39:03 Exported to Enforcement Agent(Euro Parking Collections plc )

The infraction occurred on 18/08 , they gave it to EPC on the 23rd , the letter from Epc is dated the 25/11 and we received it on the 13th Dec. Unfortunately there is no date stamp on the envelope, which we have kept.
stamfordman
QUOTE (van @ Fri, 15 Dec 2017 - 18:36) *
The infraction occurred on 18/08 , they gave it to EPC on the 23rd


They passed it to EPC on 23 August - just 5 days after the contravention?

Churchmouse
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 15 Dec 2017 - 18:41) *
QUOTE (van @ Fri, 15 Dec 2017 - 18:36) *
The infraction occurred on 18/08 , they gave it to EPC on the 23rd


They passed it to EPC on 23 August - just 5 days after the contravention?

Effectively, a concession by TFL that such charges are unenforceable against foreign vehicles, perhaps? Foreign debt collection is still in its infancy, although international RK data sharing has been the first step.

--Churchmouse
Neil B
QUOTE (van @ Fri, 15 Dec 2017 - 18:18) *
LZ29093160 and LZ2909634.

Can you spot one of the many reasons we ask to SEE docs.
The above is typical of what we've seen many times before.

cp8759
QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 15 Dec 2017 - 17:22) *
There seems to be confusion over the original GBP amounts in this case, including
£100.

The original full amount was most likely £1000.

Looking into it a bit further, https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emissi...penalty-charges provides that the penalty for a volkswagen transporter (which google tells me weighs 2.6 tonnes) is £500, discounted to £250 if paid within 14 days. It follows that the OP should have been given the opportunity to pay around 283 euros per contravention, instead they have been charged over 1000 euros per contravention. Under https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emissi...y-charge-notice the following is stated as one of the grounds for challenging the PCN:

Ground five - charge exceeds the amount payable
The Penalty Charge exceeds the amount payable in the circumstances of the case.
This may mean that you are being asked to pay a penalty charge amount above that detailed in the regulations. Reasons would include:

The amount shown on the PCN is incorrect and does not reflect the penalty charge due for the vehicle as specified in the Low Emissions Zone Scheme Order - please provide a copy of the PCN
You have already paid the PCN - please provide proof of payment. If you have a receipt please provide this or if not, confirmation that the money has been taken from your account. Remember you need to have allowed time for the payment to have been received
This does not mean that you disagree with the amount of the penalty charge or that a penalty charge has been imposed upon you.


Can you see the amount of the original PCN on the website? If you can confirm that the original PCN amount was more than £500, it looks like you have a winning appeal, all you would need to do is send an appeal in writing to:

Low Emission Zone
PO Box 342
Darlington DL1 9QB

Including documentary evidence of
A) The original PCN amount
B) The weight of your vehicle
and an explanation that, because under the regulations you should have been given a penalty of £500 (discounted to £250 if paid within 14 days), but the PCN has been issued for a greater amount, the PCN is invalid and should now be cancelled.
van
Thanks to everybody for giving time and effort with input, help, and guidance, in particular Stamfordman who helped me see through my outrage and indignation {still outraged and indignant but they are not very helpful emotions when dealing with the law} and to cp8759 who has given me hope that we can fight this. We are appealing to both Transport for London and EPC plc on the basis that the original CPN was for 1000 pounds not 500 as our vehicle category should be. If this fails we will continue the fight to at least be allowed access to the 50% discount for prompt payment.

I will update this post with the results of the appeal {though that might take some time} as it is the least I can do for all the help and might help someone else.

As we live in Spain I am very unlikely to get involved with any other threads as I have no knowledge. well except for foreign registered cars in LEZ!

Thanks to all
stamfordman
Post one of the letters from EPC in full, leaving out only personal data. Never mind the Spanish.
Neil B
Hehe.

I know I'm a bit direct at times but hey, here goes again.

You are being really, really stupid. But I doubt you'll listen.

None of this may matter because, from my brief reading last night, these are NOT enforceable.

I'm not completely sure that some new legislation hasn't been passed but the basic legal point
was that the EU does not allow enforcement of cross-border CIVIL debts.
You should research to confirm.

By engaging you may be shooting yourself in the foot.

--
The latest suggestions are also wrong (I think).

From previous research in another case I couldn't find any definitive legal point that would negate
a PCN issued, effectively, for 'failing to register', irrespective of compliance.
Quite how they view such cases and whether any are waived through discretion or some other legal point I
don't know.
But
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 01:48) *
under the regulations you should have been given a penalty of £500 (discounted to £250 if paid within 14 days), but the PCN has been issued for a greater amount, the PCN is invalid and should now be cancelled.

With respect, is nonsense: Well, I suspect so anyway.
The PCN isn't flawed at all in that way because no such vehicle exists. They don't know the GVW so,
judging from another recent case, they default to worst case scenario.

Or do they?

My point is I don't think we know, so how so certain an appeal point?
The list of various penalty levels applies where GVW is known, i.e. DVLA records.
The same happened in the other case; foreign import 3.5t, UK registered eventually but due delay (IIRC)
was not recorded in relation to LEZ.

Another reason the suggested appeal point may be flawed is that the PCN amount is irrelevant; not
that it's too much:
QUOTE (van @ Wed, 13 Dec 2017 - 21:03) *
Firstly the van is only 9 months old so is low emissions,

The vehicle is LEZ compliant !

That's the crux - and whether a failure to register can either be fought or has a chance of
being waived.
(and, still, whether it's even enforceable)

---
We have an established way of giving effective help here. It always starts by ascertaining what we are
dealing with, the applicable legislation and the circumstances.

So far, we have SFA in the way of firm conclusions and that's largely down to the OP seeking help and
then refusing to cooperate.
southpaw82
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 13:58) *
the basic legal point
was that the EU does not allow enforcement of cross-border CIVIL debts.

Depends on what sort of civil debt it is. EC 805/2004 allows for cross border enforcement of civil debts, supported by PD74B of the CPR. The question is whether it applies to non-criminal penalties levied by a state.
Neil B
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 14:08) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 13:58) *
the basic legal point
was that the EU does not allow enforcement of cross-border CIVIL debts.

Depends on what sort of civil debt it is. EC 805/2004 allows for cross border enforcement of civil debts, supported by PD74B of the CPR. The question is whether it applies to non-criminal penalties levied by a state.

Thanks SP.

It seems the various authorities don't think it does: From limited reading, they have been crying out for supporting
legislation.
So far just some data sharing established via SPARKS but to what end?

I'll have a look at 74.
southpaw82
My starting point would be that it doesn’t based on my own jurisdiction’s legislation not allowing enforcement of fines, taxes, etc cross border.
Neil B
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 14:59) *
My starting point would be that it doesn’t based on my own jurisdiction’s legislation not allowing enforcement of fines, taxes, etc cross border.

I think bottom line is that we are not 100% sure and that no specific course of action can be recommended

-- but it has been and I'm at odds with that.

Of course, if we'd seen a doc, it might give us a clue if the collection agency is citing something on which they
claim to rely?
stamfordman
I looked earlier at the official TFL sources to see what they do. My understanding now is that:

- TFL (and presumably all the other EAs signed up with EPC) immediately delegate EA to EPC, which then gets access to a country's DVLA
- EPC is not a debt collection agency as it seems you can make reps
- If ignored EPC may pass the debt on to a collection agency
- Then what? Not sure if there is an enforceable court action after this - if not the whole thing is a sham.

Here's a case where a UK person is ignoring a PCN in Budapest:

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum...n-Plc-in-the-UK

I agree with Neil that it is not a good idea to do anything before researching this further.

One test could be seeing if TFL allows the van to be registered for LEZ - if it won't then at least the OP knows it will be a problem to drive again in London.
van
I appreciate the ongoing discussion although I must confess I thought I had it clear in my head and now not at all sure what the right thing to do is.

I don't mean to be a non-compliant OP but grey hair, glasses and wrinkles means I'm technologically challenged. I have managed to upload a PCN to my email box but can't work out how to get it from there to a post. I'm still working on it, a bit sad I know.

We do want to drive the van in London again next summer and so will try and see if we can register it and then report back.

Due to all my googling over the past couple of days I'm fairly certain that I've read somewhere that the law changed in May 2017 allowing much easier debt collection in Europe. If I can find the article I will post it.


cp8759
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 13:58) *
None of this may matter because, from my brief reading last night, these are NOT enforceable.

I'm not completely sure that some new legislation hasn't been passed but the basic legal point
was that the EU does not allow enforcement of cross-border CIVIL debts.
You should research to confirm.

Cross-border enforcement of civil debt has been a thing, literally, for decades, you could try and argue that a charge certificate is not within the scope of the Brussels regulation, but if you have a winning appeal I'm not sure why you'd bother. Also, if the matter is ignored, the vehicle becomes liable to clamping if brought back to the UK.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 13:58) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 01:48) *
under the regulations you should have been given a penalty of £500 (discounted to £250 if paid within 14 days), but the PCN has been issued for a greater amount, the PCN is invalid and should now be cancelled.

With respect, is nonsense: Well, I suspect so anyway.
The PCN isn't flawed at all in that way because no such vehicle exists. They don't know the GVW so,
judging from another recent case, they default to worst case scenario.

Or do they?

My point is I don't think we know, so how so certain an appeal point?

With respect, this really is nonsense. We know that the vehicle does exist, and the OP hasn't suggested it's gross weight puts it into the same penalty band as HGVs, so (providing the OP confirms the gross weight of his vehicle is in the £500 penalty band) we know the correct penalty amount is £500 (with the 50% discount for prompt payment). We also know that a wrong penalty amount is a statutory ground for appeal, and once the evidence is presented to TFL they will have no grounds to refuse the appeal. This will see the matter come to an end quickly, cheaply, and without having to involve the Spanish legal system, or EPC, at all. So from the OP's perspective this is the most straightforward way of disposing of the matter without having to pay anything apart from the cost of sending an airmail letter.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 13:58) *
Another reason the suggested appeal point may be flawed is that the PCN amount is irrelevant; not
that it's too much:

Again, the PCN amount being wrong appears to be a statutory ground for appeal so I do not see how you can say it's irrelevant.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 13:58) *
QUOTE (van @ Wed, 13 Dec 2017 - 21:03) *
Firstly the van is only 9 months old so is low emissions,

The vehicle is LEZ compliant !

Whether the vehicle is compliant or not is irrelevant, it's quite clear that non-GB vehicles that are compliant but not registered will be liable for a penalty, but where the penalty issued is for the wrong amount, that is a statutory ground for appeal.
stamfordman
QUOTE (van @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 16:40) *
I have managed to upload a PCN to my email box but can't work out how to get it from there to a post. I'm still working on it, a bit sad I know.



Email it to me at marcb@csi.com

I will remove any personal details.
stamfordman
I wouldn't worry about the debt enforcement stage too much for the moment.

EPC is a British firm (not Swedish) - it's head office is about half mile from me. For what its worth this is what they say - I think this means that to enforce the debt TFL would have to obtain a court judgement in the UK first and then go through a foreign court - this may be beyond what they are willing to do in most cases I expect (although I have no evidence for this!).

Legal Enforcement
On receipt of the relevant judgment from the local court where the contravention occurred, the relevant authority may seek to enforce that judgment in the contravener's domiciled country. Amongst the acts forming the legal basis for this procedure is the Council Regulation (EC) 44/2001, which states that a judgment given in any signatory's state and enforceable in that state shall be enforced in any other signatory's state when, on application by any interested party, it has been declared enforceable there. Thus, an Order granted by the Parking Enforcement Centre or similar authority in other jurisdictions is a valid judgment under the terms of the Council Regulation. In the UK, the relevant authority may enforce any judgment obtained in a foreign jurisdiction under the Foreign Judgment (Reciprocal Enforcement) Act 1933. This legislation has been incorporated into the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgment Act 1982 and this act will be applied through the courts under RSC Order 71. Furthermore, treaties such as the European Convention on the Punishment of Road Traffic Offences 1964, the European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters 1959 and the Council Decision on the application of the principle of mutual recognition to financial penalties, may be applicable.
stamfordman
We have a PCN! I see a discount is or was on offer at 589 euro and it does seem that the higher charge was applied - this may be a default for a non-registration rather than anything to do with the vehicle.


van
Well going round in circles here , can't lodge an appeal because my postcode has a different format to British .....nor can I register the van because it won't accept my postcode. Even though it allows me to choose the country!!!!!!

Town *Barcelona

Postcode *Invalid postcode
08015
Invalid postcode

Country *
Spain




PASTMYBEST
We must see a document from EPC. What i garner from the tread is that this is likely a PCN on behalf of TfL if so then the appeals procedure needs to be instigated if not at least we know what we are dealing with.

A photo on a smart phone and an e mail to Stamfordman will start the ball rolling
Neil B
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 16:43) *
Cross-border enforcement of civil debt has been a thing, literally, for decades,
Also, if the matter is ignored, the vehicle becomes liable to clamping if brought back to the UK.

Citations on those?
stamfordman
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 17:30) *
We must see a document from EPC. What i garner from the tread is that this is likely a PCN on behalf of TfL if so then the appeals procedure needs to be instigated if not at least we know what we are dealing with.

A photo on a smart phone and an e mail to Stamfordman will start the ball rolling


Posted - see #39.

OP - is there a reverse side to the document or any other pages or letters/docs - if so please email me that too.
van
Translation of the Spanish:-

Infraction- Driving a vehicle on a road subject to paying an urban tax without payment of this tax.


If you do not respond after 28 days of this fine being served, a surcharge will be added to the fine taking it to 1,767.29€. If the fine is not paid, the issuing authority could register the outstanding amount as a debt and pass it to a debt collector.


You have 14 days from the date of being served to pay the fine with a discount of 589.1€- If by the date of 09/12/2017 you haven't paid you will have to pay the full amount of 1,178.19€. If by the 06/01/2018 you have not paid and you have not challenged, a further surcharge will be issued taking the total fine to 1,767.29€
stamfordman
Back of PCN

OP says:

I will translate what I think are the 2 relevant paragraphs.


The Application for the Notice:-

According to the judicial rulings of The Interpretation Act 1978s.7, unless proven otherwise, this notification comes into effect on the date that it has effectively been delivered by normal post office services. The responsibility for this notice belongs to the registered owner of the vehicle, or whoever rented it. The image shown on this notice was taken at the moment of the infraction. There are more colour photos of this infraction. Even if this image does not correspond to your vehicle you need to send a challenge.

Delegated responsibility
Euro Parking Collection plc has been authorized by contract and with the power of attorney by the issuing authority to issue this notice due to non-payment of the corresponding infraction. The power of attorney can be consulted at Euro Parking Collection plc or by visiting our offices with a previous arrangement and with sufficient justification. If you persist in non-payment can then register your vehicles movements and divulge the relevant information.Issuing Authority.

Not my best ever translation but you get the idea.


cp8759
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 17:31) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 16:43) *
Cross-border enforcement of civil debt has been a thing, literally, for decades,
Also, if the matter is ignored, the vehicle becomes liable to clamping if brought back to the UK.

Citations on those?

For the first, google "brussels regime". If you're interested in the history of cross-border debt enforcement in Europe, also lookup the Lugano Convention.

For the second, if the PCN is not paid TFL can issue a charge certificate, pass it on to bailiffs, who can then clamp the vehicle if they come across it. Whether they would bother doing this for a foreign registered vehicle is another matter, but legally I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be able to.
cp8759
QUOTE (van @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 17:23) *
Well going round in circles here , can't lodge an appeal because my postcode has a different format to British .....nor can I register the van because it won't accept my postcode. Even though it allows me to choose the country!!!!!!

Town *Barcelona

Postcode *Invalid postcode
08015
Invalid postcode

Country *
Spain

This is why I suggested appealing by letter (on second thoughts, it might be worth paying a few extra euros to send it by registered post, but that's up to you).

The address (as per https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emissi...-charge-notice) is:

Low Emission Zone
PO Box 342
Darlington DL1 9QB
United Kingdom

Suggested wording in bold (This is not written in a particularly formal manner, but this matter is so straightforward that it doesn't really warrant any legalese):

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am in receipt of PCNs LZ29093160 and LZ2909634 in relation to my Volkswagen transporter. I enclose evidence of the gross weight of my vehicle. As per https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emissi...ges?intcmp=2275 the correct penalty amount for vehicles with a gross weight of less than 3.5 tonnes is £500, discounted to £250 if paid within 14 days; however the PCN you have served is for the amount of £1,000, discounted to £500 if paid within 14 days. The penalty amount therefore exceeds the amount payable in the circumstances. Your website confirms at https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emissi...y-charge-notice that the following is a ground for appeal:

Ground five - charge exceeds the amount payable
The Penalty Charge exceeds the amount payable in the circumstances of the case.
This may mean that you are being asked to pay a penalty charge amount above that detailed in the regulations. Reasons would include:

The amount shown on the PCN is incorrect and does not reflect the penalty charge due for the vehicle as specified in the Low Emissions Zone Scheme Order - please provide a copy of the PCN


I am enclosing a copy of the PCN, I trust that upon reviewing the PCN and the enclosed evidence as to the weight of my vehicle, you will allow my appeal as the amount of the PCN exceeds the amount payable in the circumstances of the case.

Yours faithfully,

Mr Van
stamfordman
But surely the PCN is for not registering.

The crux to this I think is whether EPC has delegated powers to obtain a local court order.
cp8759
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 12:22) *
But surely the PCN is for not registering.

The crux to this I think is whether EPC has delegated powers to obtain a local court order.

Maybe the PCN is for not registering, maybe it's for driving in the zone without registering, maybe it's for not sending the appropriate form to the dark side of the moon, who cares? If the amount is wrong, TFL tells us that's a ground to have the PCN cancelled, so the OP might as well appeal and get it cancelled.

There's no way EPC are going to start first instance proceedings in Spain, if they do anything they will seek to use the Brussels regime to enforce a charge certificate once one is issued.
stamfordman
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 12:34) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 12:22) *
But surely the PCN is for not registering.

The crux to this I think is whether EPC has delegated powers to obtain a local court order.

Maybe the PCN is for not registering, maybe it's for driving in the zone without registering, maybe it's for not sending the appropriate form to the dark side of the moon, who cares? If the amount is wrong, TFL tells us that's a ground to have the PCN cancelled, so the OP might as well appeal and get it cancelled.

There's no way EPC are going to start first instance proceedings in Spain, if they do anything they will seek to use the Brussels regime to enforce a charge certificate once one is issued.


I think you need to be careful - I get the impression you don't know anything about this!

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