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bella(trying to work)
Nov 2017

I received 2 PCN's in One day and within 1 & 1/2 hours of each other and from differing Local Authorities.

As advised, I have tried to separate the PCN's and the Local Authorise involved.

I may be able to challenge and appeal the one in N11 due to a "procedural impropriety" of the terms required by Schedule 1 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003.

Neither PCN's mention Schedule 1.

s.8(a) point (viii) that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Act

....Although both offer discounted rate of 50% if I pay within 14 days, but the Enfield PCN (attached below) states "Not to make payment if I wish to challenge the PCN"

Link to N11 forum discussion& PCN (post #17 & onwards)

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117116

My dilemma's here are...
Q 1. Do I appeal/"make representation" both (individually) within the 14 days reduced rate time frame? or does Schedule 1 mean I have 28 days to appeal/make representation?

The Enfield PCN page 2, states

"Please make sure you sign the following declaration if you want us to consider your representations" and the adds on a threat of prosecution and a possible fine of up to £5000.

As I'm unsure if Schedule 1 applys to this PCN or not? so I am unable to sign to agree to this area??

Q 2. Should I just sign it and tick the last box...The penalty Charge exceeds the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.....(and expand on my concerns that Schedule 1 has not been mentioned on this PCN???

or has this PCN been correctly issued by Enfield in accordance with the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003??

Q 3. Are there any chats on this forum site that anyone can refer or point me in the direction of simular issues or can anyone clarify if the Enfield PCN has any "procedural improprieties" ?

Both PCN's, ironically, and worryingly, do state about Data Sharing Information between other Local Authorises, London Councils, and other enforcement agencies.

I'll only need N10, N12, N13, & N15 to collect get a full set biggrin.gif laugh.gif


Incandescent
You can't pay and appeal. The PCNs do not have to quote the clauses of the Act, but must have on the PCN the mandatory content. There is no statutory appeal ground of "procedural impropriety" in the LLA & TFL Act 2003, that is only in the Trafic Management Act 2004 in relation to parking contraventions. The correct one to use if they haven't followed the process or there are errors in the PCN is "the penalty exceeded the relevant amount in the circumstances of the case".This was used for parking before the TMA 2004 for similar cases.

Reading between the lines, you seem to accept the contraventions occurred and you're looking for a technical argument. True or false ? Others on here are more expert than me on PCN content, but if you want to go down this road, you'll have to forego the discount and take the matter to the London Tribunals with £130 in play.

Have you started a thread on the other PCN ?

bella(trying to work)
Hi,

Thank you for your reply.

Yes I already started the chat forum for the N11 Haringey PCN (Link below & is within this Enfield message above post#1)

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117116

The Haringey N11 PCN is at post #17 & #18

The confusing part is that I am having to separate the 2 PCN's. Both areas (Enfield and Haringey) have different forum links as they are from neighbouring Local Authorises, and both PCN's are differing in some areas of wording, but are similar in others.

I only seem to be accepting them on the advise and experiences of others query's and enquiries that I've read in the differing posts within the forum's.

With regards to Enfield, most are advising & saying the PCN is correct in wording, so best to pay up. That the signage has been in place since the 70's and is evidently clear.

It was my first time driving and working within the area, and I must admit that I am baffled and concerned that I may have missed the signage within 2 North London areas within such a short space of time.

I'm due back in the area for work again week commencing 4th December, but I'm don't feel confident driving around these areas if there are so many No Left turn's and No Right turns restrictions which I may not clearly see or know about until I get familiar with my new working patch and route. My confidence in driving around my normal local areas has also been effected, I'm even considering a career change.

Like with the Private Parking Tickets, the 14 Day "carrot dangler special offer bargain" doesn't tempt this Shopper anymore. I've learnt to stick at the middle rate and appeal where I feel the PCN may have been issued unfairly, or inaccurately, and to "fightback"

I'd happily pay the charge IF i saw that the money was being spent on improving the area's safety, signage, crossings, lighting, kerbs and pot holes, (which I seriously doubt as both these PCN's, Enfield and Haringey have notorious and historical complaints and forums on this site alone that stretch back years) and that the Local Authorities haven't attempted to address or changed anything within these areas.

Its becoming a moralistic issue for me.
peterguk
QUOTE (bella(trying to work) @ Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 01:11) *
Its becoming a moralistic issue for me.


A dangerous game unless the money you may well end up paying out means nothing to you, which is unlikely.
bella(trying to work)
Catch 22, The fines are more than double what I would earn working for a day in these area's.
I actually like the job I do. biggrin.gif

I'll be on this and other sites Learning everything I can about the North London Traffic enforcement so I can sleep at night without the worry of continuous "alleged contraventions" & "Private Parking Company Tickets" to come home to in the post.

It's bad enough witnessing and driving past an accident, I don't want to be involved or the cause of one either, so if the signage, Lighting etc around some of these areas ARE not clearly visible, surly its better to appeal and raise concerns to the Local Authorities than to just pay up at the "fictitious reduced 50 % deal rate"?? and nothing gets addressed or changed UNLESS serious accidents occur.
PASTMYBEST
Don't get mixed up you have to make representations to the council that served the PCN these are two separate legal entities
Incandescent
QUOTE (bella(trying to work) @ Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 10:03) *
Catch 22, The fines are more than double what I would earn working for a day in these area's.
I actually like the job I do. biggrin.gif

I'll be on this and other sites Learning everything I can about the North London Traffic enforcement so I can sleep at night without the worry of continuous "alleged contraventions" & "Private Parking Company Tickets" to come home to in the post.

It's bad enough witnessing and driving past an accident, I don't want to be involved or the cause of one either, so if the signage, Lighting etc around some of these areas ARE not clearly visible, surly its better to appeal and raise concerns to the Local Authorities than to just pay up at the "fictitious reduced 50 % deal rate"?? and nothing gets addressed or changed UNLESS serious accidents occur.

If you're tootling around these streets JUST using a sat-nav, don't ! Sat-navs are notorious for their users getting PCNs. You must look out for signs if you're turning. If you didn't realise it already, London is a nightmare to drive around, as all motorists are regarded as resource to be fully exploited, (like North Sea oil).
bella(trying to work)
Busted By The Sat Nav laugh.gif

That's exactly whats happened here. My company & job has supplied me with a pre-calculated Journey plan of postcodes which I am "asked/required" to follow.....so Sat Nav is these days, the way to do the job.

Luckily....I am old school and know how things were done in "the good old days" LEARN THE AREA and memorise. biggrin.gif

Shame that no-ones thought to tell the "google Maps" and "computer generated route planners" the Local Authorities road layouts laugh.gif

I have managed to draft an appeal/representation letter for the Haringey PCN, but I'm still not sure if there is anything I can do about this Enfield one??

THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH TO "PASTMYBEST" help and post both here and with The Haringey N11 issue.

Does anyone know if the Enfield PCN has the same Schedule 1, Section 4 wording issue??

QUOTING THE ADJUDICATORS COMMENTS (RE: a similar case as mine with regards to the N11 Haringey PCN)

"The wording does not comply with the requirements of the Act and therefore effectively limits the time a recipient has to make representations or, indeed, to pay the full penalty charge before a Charge Certificate is issued."

(Sorry, I've still not quite worked out how to select a quote on this forum) laugh.gif But I am learning lots..... biggrin.gif
PASTMYBEST
Post your draft here for review. from your earlier post i am not sure you grasped the wording issue, got no time to explain now but will do so later

Enfield PCN looks OK. Thinking of a plan for that but it's risky again more later
bella(trying to work)
I'm not sure I grasped it all either so anything help supplied is more that greatly appreciated. I'm still just in the 14days time line here on both PCN's so risk taking may still be optional biggrin.gif





Woops huh.gif sorry about images, but they do rotate if you click of full image laugh.gif

PASTMYBEST
it looks like interweb derived waffle. To much in there that has no bearing, I'll tidy it up later or tomorrow morning. (you have til Wednesday )
bella(trying to work)
biggrin.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

it is a bit a of a mish mash from everywhere laugh.gif

I wanted to try to avoid moaning & didn't quite understand the legal jargon rolleyes.gif so, admittedly, I'm out of my depth.

My dyslexia doesn't help matters either.
In my defence tho, I had just read, a very intentionally long and babbled Parking charge Appeal Template Letter on one of Martin Lewis, (Money Saving Experts) forum post's about appealing a PPC for my son's benefit, and have probably got very comfused.com over the whole of the "driving/parking" issues. blush.gif Too much research cramming. laugh.gif

Anything anyone can do to help and guide me is very much appreciated, and I thank you for your time and patience. In the mean time i'll have another look at condensing, rewording, and simplifying it.

Haringey PCN is dated 14th Novemeber and Enfield is dated 15th November.
bella(trying to work)
I've had a go at tidying my Appeals Letter for Haringey up abit. Is it any better now??



PASTMYBEST
I have posted a suggestion on the Haringey thread as regards this Enfield one i would pay the discount and learn from it there is nothing to go on so would be relying on a mess up from Enfield
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