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Dave2
Please could some one help me? On my way to a job interview, in an unfamiliar area, my sat nav advises me to make a left turn from Forest Road in Winsbeach. Google shows there is a sign well before this junction (another forum post states this to be about 16.6m from the junction) but there is nothing at the point of entry. Apparently right turns are allowed and FOI requests show the mobile cctv car catches about eight people per day, making £200k a year. Previous posts about errors within the PCN no longer seem relevant as LBWF seem to have rectified these. However, I still think the signage is poor and this is a bit of a cash trap.

Thanks
PASTMYBEST
Post the PCn and the video for help
stamfordman
Here - it's a part time sign and there's only one.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.592678,0.00...3312!8i6656

Dave2
Thanks. I'm trying to upload the PCN without much luck
stamfordman
Use a pic site such as Flickr and post links. BBCode links embeds the pics.
Dave2
https://www.flickr.com/photos/154028460@N04...8/in/datetaken/

Is this working? Can upload the rest if it is. New to this!
stamfordman
11 mins earlier and you'd have been ok...

Dave2
https://www.flickr.com/photos/154028460@N04...1/in/datetaken/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/154028460@N04...eposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/154028460@N04...eposted-public/

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 7 Nov 2017 - 22:33) *
11 mins earlier and you'd have been ok...



Does that mean game over?
Incandescent
QUOTE
Does that mean game over?

Well quite possibly, as 10 minutes into the restriction is not in de minimis territory. The sign as shown on GSV seems clear enough. It really is fatal to just follow sat-nav instructions without keeping a weather eye on signs. It looks as if this restriction is an anti-rat-running measure as this street provides a nice cut-off from Forest Road down to Wood Street thus avoiding the traffic lights at Forest Road/Wood Street that no doubt are chock-a-bloc in the morning.
Dave2
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 7 Nov 2017 - 23:01) *
QUOTE
Does that mean game over?

Well quite possibly, as 10 minutes into the restriction is not in de minimis territory. The sign as shown on GSV seems clear enough. It really is fatal to just follow sat-nav instructions without keeping a weather eye on signs. It looks as if this restriction is an anti-rat-running measure as this street provides a nice cut-off from Forest Road down to Wood Street thus avoiding the traffic lights at Forest Road/Wood Street that no doubt are chock-a-bloc in the morning.


Annoying thing is I clocked the symbol but not the time. I thought it seemed strange. At the turning there was no further signage except a 3.5 t restriction so I thought I’d imagined it plus road markings didn’t show a one way road. If only I’d noticed the time but my mind was full of the interview Etc
stamfordman
Case from some years ago with a lot of info:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=54296

Recent one - no conclusion:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=111627
Neil B
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 8 Nov 2017 - 00:01) *
It looks as if this restriction is an anti-rat-running measure as this street provides a nice cut-off from Forest Road down to Wood Street thus avoiding the traffic lights at Forest Road/Wood Street that no doubt are chock-a-bloc in the morning.

Correct.

There are probably a good few cases on LT site as a guide to outcomes. I don't have time to look.
PASTMYBEST
There is one error on the PCN. They claim they may serve a charge cert increasing the penalty to £195 at the end of the 28 day period. This is wrong

The date from which they may issue a CC is from date of service 2 days later i:e the same expiry date for reps.

There is also one glaring one waiting if they c**k up as I would expect but it would put the discount at risk so I will say no more for now
Dave2
Thanks everyone. It seems that LBWF have learnt from past mistakes with their PCNs and I'm getting the impression this will just need to be paid?

Only question I have is the amount of time between the 'offence' and the date of the notice is 17 days. I thought they had a 14 day limit or is that just something to do with speeding fines?

Thanks
Dave
Dave2
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 7 Nov 2017 - 23:40) *
There is one error on the PCN. They claim they may serve a charge cert increasing the penalty to £195 at the end of the 28 day period. This is wrong

The date from which they may issue a CC is from date of service 2 days later i:e the same expiry date for reps.

There is also one glaring one waiting if they c**k up as I would expect but it would put the discount at risk so I will say no more for now


Is this enough to appeal on?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Dave2 @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 16:55) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 7 Nov 2017 - 23:40) *
There is one error on the PCN. They claim they may serve a charge cert increasing the penalty to £195 at the end of the 28 day period. This is wrong

The date from which they may issue a CC is from date of service 2 days later i:e the same expiry date for reps.

There is also one glaring one waiting if they c**k up as I would expect but it would put the discount at risk so I will say no more for now


Is this enough to appeal on?


This case won on it

2170469036

The Appellant has not attended and the Authority is not represented.
The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was stopped in the box junction when prohibited when in Finchley Road/Bridge Lane on 27 June 2017 at 17.27.
The Appellant's case is that he had anticipated that the exit would be clear.
He also takes a point on the Penalty Charge Notice in relation to the time permitted time for representations to be considered and referred me to the case of Atlas - v Barnet case number 2170053479.
I have considered the evidence and I have allowed this appeal on the truncated period point that an Authority must consider representations. I have copied into this decision the relevant part of the Atlas case.
"Section 4(8)(a) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides that A penalty charge notice under this section must [amongst other things] state ... (iii) that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice; ... (v) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable; (vi) the amount of the increased charge; ... and (viii) that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Act; and (8)(b) requires that they specify the form in which any such representations are to be made.
Paragraph 1(3) of the Schedule provides that the enforcing authority may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice in question was served. {effectively 28 days + 2 days}
Mr Atlas correctly points out that in this case the Penalty Charge Notice states: 'The penalty charge of £130 must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice. If the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period and no representations have been made, an increased charge of 50% to £195 may be payable and a charge certificate may be issued.'
Mr Atlas submits that this wording is not compliant with the requirements of the 2003 Act and, further, effectively limits the time he has to make representations.
I accept this submission. The wording does not comply with the requirements of the Act and therefore effectively limits the time a recipient has to make representations or, indeed, to pay the full penalty charge before a Charge Certificate is issued."
Accordingly, this appeal is allowed.
Dave2
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 17:04) *
QUOTE (Dave2 @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 16:55) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 7 Nov 2017 - 23:40) *
There is one error on the PCN. They claim they may serve a charge cert increasing the penalty to £195 at the end of the 28 day period. This is wrong

The date from which they may issue a CC is from date of service 2 days later i:e the same expiry date for reps.

There is also one glaring one waiting if they c**k up as I would expect but it would put the discount at risk so I will say no more for now


Is this enough to appeal on?


This case won on it

2170469036

The Appellant has not attended and the Authority is not represented.
The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was stopped in the box junction when prohibited when in Finchley Road/Bridge Lane on 27 June 2017 at 17.27.
The Appellant's case is that he had anticipated that the exit would be clear.
He also takes a point on the Penalty Charge Notice in relation to the time permitted time for representations to be considered and referred me to the case of Atlas - v Barnet case number 2170053479.
I have considered the evidence and I have allowed this appeal on the truncated period point that an Authority must consider representations. I have copied into this decision the relevant part of the Atlas case.
"Section 4(8)(a) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides that A penalty charge notice under this section must [amongst other things] state ... (iii) that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice; ... (v) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable; (vi) the amount of the increased charge; ... and (viii) that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Act; and (8)(b) requires that they specify the form in which any such representations are to be made.
Paragraph 1(3) of the Schedule provides that the enforcing authority may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice in question was served. {effectively 28 days + 2 days}
Mr Atlas correctly points out that in this case the Penalty Charge Notice states: 'The penalty charge of £130 must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice. If the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period and no representations have been made, an increased charge of 50% to £195 may be payable and a charge certificate may be issued.'
Mr Atlas submits that this wording is not compliant with the requirements of the 2003 Act and, further, effectively limits the time he has to make representations.
I accept this submission. The wording does not comply with the requirements of the Act and therefore effectively limits the time a recipient has to make representations or, indeed, to pay the full penalty charge before a Charge Certificate is issued."
Accordingly, this appeal is allowed.


Thank you for this. If I appeal and not successful will I lose my discount for paying early?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Dave2 @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 18:06) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 17:04) *
QUOTE (Dave2 @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 16:55) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 7 Nov 2017 - 23:40) *
There is one error on the PCN. They claim they may serve a charge cert increasing the penalty to £195 at the end of the 28 day period. This is wrong

The date from which they may issue a CC is from date of service 2 days later i:e the same expiry date for reps.

There is also one glaring one waiting if they c**k up as I would expect but it would put the discount at risk so I will say no more for now


Is this enough to appeal on?


This case won on it

2170469036

The Appellant has not attended and the Authority is not represented.
The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was stopped in the box junction when prohibited when in Finchley Road/Bridge Lane on 27 June 2017 at 17.27.
The Appellant's case is that he had anticipated that the exit would be clear.
He also takes a point on the Penalty Charge Notice in relation to the time permitted time for representations to be considered and referred me to the case of Atlas - v Barnet case number 2170053479.
I have considered the evidence and I have allowed this appeal on the truncated period point that an Authority must consider representations. I have copied into this decision the relevant part of the Atlas case.
"Section 4(8)(a) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides that A penalty charge notice under this section must [amongst other things] state ... (iii) that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice; ... (v) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable; (vi) the amount of the increased charge; ... and (viii) that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Act; and (8)(b) requires that they specify the form in which any such representations are to be made.
Paragraph 1(3) of the Schedule provides that the enforcing authority may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice in question was served. {effectively 28 days + 2 days}
Mr Atlas correctly points out that in this case the Penalty Charge Notice states: 'The penalty charge of £130 must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice. If the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period and no representations have been made, an increased charge of 50% to £195 may be payable and a charge certificate may be issued.'
Mr Atlas submits that this wording is not compliant with the requirements of the 2003 Act and, further, effectively limits the time he has to make representations.
I accept this submission. The wording does not comply with the requirements of the Act and therefore effectively limits the time a recipient has to make representations or, indeed, to pay the full penalty charge before a Charge Certificate is issued."
Accordingly, this appeal is allowed.


Thank you for this. If I appeal and not successful will I lose my discount for paying early?


Some councils will re offer it but they are not obliged to, check what it says on the PCN or council website
Dave2
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 17:04) *
QUOTE (Dave2 @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 16:55) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 7 Nov 2017 - 23:40) *
There is one error on the PCN. They claim they may serve a charge cert increasing the penalty to £195 at the end of the 28 day period. This is wrong

The date from which they may issue a CC is from date of service 2 days later i:e the same expiry date for reps.

There is also one glaring one waiting if they c**k up as I would expect but it would put the discount at risk so I will say no more for now


Is this enough to appeal on?


This case won on it

2170469036

The Appellant has not attended and the Authority is not represented.
The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was stopped in the box junction when prohibited when in Finchley Road/Bridge Lane on 27 June 2017 at 17.27.
The Appellant's case is that he had anticipated that the exit would be clear.
He also takes a point on the Penalty Charge Notice in relation to the time permitted time for representations to be considered and referred me to the case of Atlas - v Barnet case number 2170053479.
I have considered the evidence and I have allowed this appeal on the truncated period point that an Authority must consider representations. I have copied into this decision the relevant part of the Atlas case.
"Section 4(8)(a) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides that A penalty charge notice under this section must [amongst other things] state ... (iii) that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice; ... (v) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable; (vi) the amount of the increased charge; ... and (viii) that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Act; and (8)(b) requires that they specify the form in which any such representations are to be made.
Paragraph 1(3) of the Schedule provides that the enforcing authority may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice in question was served. {effectively 28 days + 2 days}
Mr Atlas correctly points out that in this case the Penalty Charge Notice states: 'The penalty charge of £130 must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice. If the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period and no representations have been made, an increased charge of 50% to £195 may be payable and a charge certificate may be issued.'
Mr Atlas submits that this wording is not compliant with the requirements of the 2003 Act and, further, effectively limits the time he has to make representations.
I accept this submission. The wording does not comply with the requirements of the Act and therefore effectively limits the time a recipient has to make representations or, indeed, to pay the full penalty charge before a Charge Certificate is issued."
Accordingly, this appeal is allowed.


Thank you for all the help and support. I suppose what I am asking is: is this so clear cut I should I appeal or is it too risky? Sorry very new to this huh.gif
PASTMYBEST
It really is impossible for us to say. As you can see it has been found to be reason to allow but one adjudicator does not bind another. So it comes down to your attitude to risk
You can pay now. give the council 65 of your hard earned in the run up to xmas, or you can take a double or quits bet and get two shots at it being cancelled. The council or the adjudicator.

If you decide to appeal then it would be between 4 to six months if you lost save a fiver a week and you will have the difference or you win and treat yourself. Your choice, we will help and advise
Dave2
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 21:04) *
It really is impossible for us to say. As you can see it has been found to be reason to allow but one adjudicator does not bind another. So it comes down to your attitude to risk
You can pay now. give the council 65 of your hard earned in the run up to xmas, or you can take a double or quits bet and get two shots at it being cancelled. The council or the adjudicator.

If you decide to appeal then it would be between 4 to six months if you lost save a fiver a week and you will have the difference or you win and treat yourself. Your choice, we will help and advise


According to the PCN, if they reject the appeal I can still pay the reduced rate so worth a try!!
Dave2
Is there a defence if the website keeps crashing every time you try to submit? angry.gif angry.gif angry.gif angry.gif angry.gif

This is now the basis of my appeal - what do you nice people think?

Firstly, your PCN states:
"Making a prohibited turn as indicated by a sign will cause danger to other road users and so a PCN is issued."
If this is true then I would expect to see more signage on the approach to the junction. I would also expect to see right turns prohibited and a 24 hour restriction in place. The CCTV footage does not show me being a danger to any road user. I am a road user who missed the one and only sign due to focusing on traffic and navigation (not a regular in the area) during poor weather.

Secondly, your PCN states:
"If the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge of £195 may be payable (this is a 50% increase of the Penalty Charge amount). We may then send you a Charge Certificate seeking payment of this increased amount. At this stage it would be too late to make representations."

This is in breach of Section 4(8)(a) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003

I refer you to the PATAS cases: '2170469036 Antell v London Borough of Barnet' and '2170053479 Atlas v London Borough of Barnet.'

Within these cases, both adjudicators allowed these appeals on the following basis:

Section 4(8)(a) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides that A penalty charge notice under this section must [amongst other things] state … (iii) that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice; … (v) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable; (vi) the amount of the increased charge; … and (viii) that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Act; and (8)(b) requires that they specify the form in which any such representations are to be made.

Paragraph 1(3) of the Schedule provides that the enforcing authority may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice in question was served.

Your PCN begins on 6th November 2017 but this was not served on me (arriving at my house) until the 9th November 2017.

Within the aforementioned cases, the appellant correctly points out that in his case the Penalty Charge Notice states: ‘The penalty charge of £130 must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice. If the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period and no representations have been made, an increased charge of 50% to £195 may be payable and a charge certificate may be issued.’

The appellant successfully submitted that this wording is not compliant with the requirements of the 2003 Act and, further, effectively limited the time he had to make representations.

Both adjudicators accepted this submission recognising that the wording does not comply with the requirements of the Act and therefore effectively limits the time a recipient has to make representations or, indeed, to pay the full penalty charge before a Charge Certificate is issued.

As a result of of the above, I hope to see my PCN cancelled based on: the fact that the limited signage in on a busy road in the rain was not adequate; the fact that there clearly was no danger to any other road user; the PCN is in breach of the 2003 act.
Neil B
QUOTE (Dave2 @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 22:39) *
Your PCN begins on 6th November 2017 but this was not served on me (arriving at my house) until the 9th November 2017.

If you include this then I suggest you add >
'Kindly furnish me with a copy of your computer history log for this PCN, showing each action taken and the relevant dates.'
(They'll know why; it may tell you when the PCN was really printed and posted)
Dave2
Thanks for this
Dave2
Hi
As shown above, I have made a representation but this is not showing when I log into the PCN on the council website. I do have email proof though. Is this ok?
Neil B
QUOTE (Dave2 @ Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 22:29) *
Hi
As shown above, I have made a representation but this is not showing when I log into the PCN on the council website. I do have email proof though. Is this ok?

We've had 2 or 3 reports recently re that with WF.

See what happens and check back there and here in a week.
Dave2
Hi.
My appeal has been rejected. Not sure what to do next. Here's the link to the notice of rejection. Sorry my Flickr skills are not good hence it's a link
https://www.flickr.com/photos/154028460@N04...eposted-public/
Thanks
Dave2
Should I just pay this or is there something I can appeal on? Really don't want this bill just before Christmas
PASTMYBEST
well it's up to you, but they would say their PCN's are correct wouldn't they. It's not If you appeal then it will not need paying before Xmas but if you lose it will be double.

Dave2
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 9 Dec 2017 - 19:00) *
well it's up to you, but they would say their PCN's are correct wouldn't they. It's not If you appeal then it will not need paying before Xmas but if you lose it will be double.


Thanks. Makes logical sense. What are the odds of this being accepted though? Is it a glaring error or likely to be met with the response of "not this argument again"
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