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i_Seeker
Hi everyone,

I parked my car in Wandsworth and went to pay for it on my phone with the app Parkmobile. The app/internet played up for less than 2 minutes but I managed to pay for my ticket. I was walking to work.

I ended up getting a PCN at 14:38:36, but Parkmobile showed my start time at 14:40 (it doesn't show exact seconds on the app). Worst park is that I didn't see the warden!

I'm wondering if there are observation periods for this and whether I am liable for the ticket, given between parking (around 1 before I got the ticket), getting the ticket and starting my payment with Parkmobile ( 1minute and 24 seconds later)?

Am I liable for the ticket?

Thanks.

DancingDad
I think a little clarity may help.
And a copy of the PCN.

You parked sometime before 14.38.
Left the car and tried to connect to phone payment to pay while you started walking to work.
Took a minute or so to connect (bad signal, engaged, ringing what ????) but did and log shows at 14.40 (copy enclosed)
Please cancel the PCN as I was engaged in making payment when the PCN was being served.

Reads a bit better that way.
There is a time allowance to make payment, used to be simple when paying at a machine but with modern tech, pay by phone and the like, less simple for a CEO to see someone get out of car and walk to machine to pay.
Council will likely say that you should not have left car until payment was complete.

Lets see the PCN
i_Seeker
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 21:31) *
I think a little clarity may help.
And a copy of the PCN.

You parked sometime before 14.38.
Left the car and tried to connect to phone payment to pay while you started walking to work.
Took a minute or so to connect (bad signal, engaged, ringing what ????) but did and log shows at 14.40 (copy enclosed)
Please cancel the PCN as I was engaged in making payment when the PCN was being served.

Reads a bit better that way.
There is a time allowance to make payment, used to be simple when paying at a machine but with modern tech, pay by phone and the like, less simple for a CEO to see someone get out of car and walk to machine to pay.
Council will likely say that you should not have left car until payment was complete.

Lets see the PCN


Thanks for replying DancingDad.

I'm getting the PCN uploaded now. That's precisely what happened, I was engaged in payment and the poor internet connection meant that the app could not start the timer on the app for some reason.

Can the council say that it's tough and I should not have left the car until payment had started?
Steve_999
QUOTE (i_Seeker @ Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 21:46) *
. . . . .

Can the council say that it's tough and I should not have left the car until payment had started?


Perhaps the mobile signal is weak where the car was parked? You would then need to move away from the car in order to complete the payment.
Incandescent
We have seen people on here only pay when they've arrived at their office 10 or more minutes after parking the car. Whilst time is allowed to get a ticket from a machine, for PbP, the expectation is similar, i.e you'll start your PbP app as soon as you have parked. Its also better not to leave the car until payment is acknowledged.
stamfordman
If PCN shows 5 mins observation time then they may turn down a challenge.

How far from where you parked was the location info or did you get it form the app.
hcandersen
Can the council say that it's tough and I should not have left the car until payment had started?

Yes. After all perhaps you had no money on your card and couldn't pay or whatever? The only foolproof way is to not leave the vicinity. But that's history. As per DD, you've an account to give, so give it in the best light.

Objectively the contravention occurred at 14.38 and the CEO's notes will show that the driver was not seen. The parking charge was paid at 14.40.

If the facts fit then perhaps...

Scenario 1
You'd parked, nipped somwhere locally hoping to get back before a PCN, missed, found the PCN then paid.

Scenario 2
Responsible motorist, parked there before, never had a problem, paid on the move going away from the car, found the PCN on your return at ***. This is consistent with the timings - although the PCN was issued at 14.38 the CEO would still have been in the process of serving the PCN at 14.40 and as they still hadn't seen the driver then payment of the parking charge must have occurred, as indeed it did, before the I became aware that a PCN had been served.

I accept that in an ideal world I should have stayed at the car until I'd paid, but as I did pay the charge before I became aware of the PCN I would ask the authority to exercise discretion on this occasion.
PASTMYBEST
2170117367 Adjudicator andrew Harman

This vehicle on the council's case was parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket and with no payment to park being in place at the relevant time. The PCN was issued at 08:52.
The appellant denies that the contravention occurred his case being that on parking he paid to park via RingGo as he walked the 0.1 mile walk into work he calling RingGo at 08:53 a payment confirmation text being received at 09:02 supporting evidence on these points being provided.
On the officer's evidence he was first at the vehicle at 08:50.
The appellant provides what I find to be credible evidence as to this incident and I am prepared to accept that on parking he made a parking payment request or commenced such request albeit that he was not with the vehicle when he did so.
I find in those circumstances that the contravention did not occur.
I allow the appeal.
hcandersen
?? which isn't the law IMO, but that's adjudicators for you.

PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 26 Oct 2017 - 13:36) *
?? which isn't the law IMO, but that's adjudicators for you.


A finding of fact that the act of making payment was commenced within a reasonable time. He is entitled to make that finding
DancingDad
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 26 Oct 2017 - 14:20) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 26 Oct 2017 - 13:36) *
?? which isn't the law IMO, but that's adjudicators for you.


A finding of fact that the act of making payment was commenced within a reasonable time. He is entitled to make that finding


That's the gamble with adjudication and adjudicators for you.

The reasonable ones will look at a minute or so delay in commencing payment as acceptable despite the fact (in most cases) that the vehicle is in contravention the moment it is parked.
The time to make payment is simply an expedient necessity and is taken as part of the act of parking.
If time to pay extends for a good reason this can be one area where adjudicators can cancel on discretion.
Though they will not call it that.

But one will and another may act like a burke and decide it was unreasonable to leave the vehicle.


hcandersen
@DD, but surely having found a fact he should then apply the law which presumably and normally is a provision in an order that a motorist must pay the parking charge before 'leaving' the vehicle in the parking place.

But this is not the main point neither IMO should the OP plan to rely on it at adjudication.
i_Seeker
Thank you all. After speaking with Wandsworth Council they agreed to suspend action on the ticket on this occasion. They told me that drivers when paying with an app should wait by their phone until the parking starts and usually do not offer any observation as payment digitally is instant.

I'm sure there are many defenses (for example one person initially opting to pay cash and realizing they could not so paid digitally), but that's their party line.
stamfordman
QUOTE (i_Seeker @ Sun, 29 Oct 2017 - 10:28) *
Thank you all. After speaking with Wandsworth Council they agreed to suspend action on the ticket on this occasion.



Suspend or cancel? Not the same thing.
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