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cpu2007
I have a few questions in regards to this matter, I have noticed this has been asked previously but I am still a bit confused.

I found this:

QUOTE
The Bus Lane Contraventions Regs 2005 which state;

8(2) Subject to paragraph 3, a PCN shall be served before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the detection date

8(3) Where (a) within 14 days of the detection date a local authority have made a request to The Secretary of State for the supply of relevant particulars and

(b) those particulars have not been supplied before the date after which the authority would not be entitled to serve a penalty notice by virtue of paragraph 8(2)

the authority shall be entitled to serve a PCN for a period of 6 months beginning with the detection date.


I received a charge certificate around the 23rd of September 2017
The certificate states that the council first sent me a NTO on the 18th of August 2017, however I never received this NTO.
I replied back to them,stating that over 28 days have elapsed and the PCN is not enforceable.
They reply back that is still enforceable as they first sent me a NTO on the 19th of August 2017.

My question is:
In the first letter they are stating they sent it on the 18/08/2017
In the second letter they are stating, it was sent on the 19/08/2017
Despite multiple contradicting statements, I never received it, does that mean they sent it?
How does the law work in this case?

Kind regards
PASTMYBEST
Have you got those contradicting statements in writing or recorded, if not forget them. Forget them anyway for the time being.

You are know concerned only with the process of re setting the process back to the beginning. So

post the CC here redact only personal identifying detail. Things are now time critical so don't delay

Any time after 14 days of issue of the CC the authority may apply for and Order For recovery ( OfR ) this will be served on you you will then have 21 days to preform a statutory declaration ( the form will be included with the OfR)

There are strict limited ground on which you can do this. yours would be no PCN/NTO received Tick the box get it witnessed send off and the CC and OfR will be revoked and the authority may send a fresh PCN. You can then pay or challenge
Neil B
QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Thu, 5 Oct 2017 - 13:26) *
The Bus Lane Contraventions Regs 2005 which state;

and are the ones that apply?
You've told us nothing of location, Council, etc.
cpu2007
Apologies guys, let me clarify a few things.
My topic was primarily to understand if the council can still enforce the penalty charge despite me not having received the NTO they claim to have sent.
It was also in regards to the two contradicting statements which I have in writing from them.

A bit of a background on this matter:

My vehicle seem to have been detected using a bus lane in Bradford on bridge street,broadway
The problem is I never been to Bradford and when I looked at the evidence,although it looked like my vehicle, it wasn't my vehicle. I watched the video to understand if I could spot who was driving but the quality was awful(very compressed) and I asked the council to send a copy of the original video (without compression) but they haven't

Afterwards, I have reported the police, they haven't generated a reference number but said that they have submitted an intelligence report.
I have reported the DVLA as advised by the police.

So now I'm dealing with the council and wanted to know whether it was possible to cancel the PCN based on the errors they made (e.g contradicting dates, not having received the NTO etc.)
If everything fails,I believe I should be able to cancel the PCN on the fact that it was cloned right?
disgrunt
From what I understand of the process, yes they can.

Imagine you are Harrison ford at the start of raiders of the lost arc. You curreny have a ball rolling towards you and it willc crush you unless you stop it. You seem currently to be arguing the rights and wrongs of releasing the ball.

You are in a process now that needs to be followed before you get to even think of getting the pcn cancelled. Listen to the advice of the regular posters and follow their instructions fully
stamfordman
Can you see the number plate on the video? That's the key. It may not be a clone but a misread of a similar plate.

If you do nothing you will be sent an order of recovery, as PMB says, to which you can reset to the NTO stage, and then make reps that the car wasn't yours.
cpu2007
Yes I can see the plate number and correct.
I was really concerned when I saw it because I didn't remember ever being in that location.
What was shocking is that the plate number was exactly mine as well as the model of the car, everything was the same, which is why it took me a while to understand what was going on.
When I checked the plate number carefully, i realised that the background was all white, like there wasn't any other writing on it other than the plate number, as opposed to mine,which has GP sign and europe flag on the left. The cloned plate number also looked a lot cleaner.

I am in the process of sending the photographic evidence of my car(as they requested it) but if I receive the order of recovery then I will start with the advise given to me on here.

@stamfordman you're right, I will do the reset based on the grounds the car wasn't mine as I feel these are strong grounds, considering the DVLA as well as the police know about this now.
However, I was curious about the grounds that could have been applied if the "clone registration" wasn't part of the equation.

For example them stating they have sent the NTO but I never received it, how can they prove that? If I send them something I prove it with tracking details.
The obvious contradicting details about when the NTO was issued(not sure how relevant that could be as a ground)
And of course me receiving the first letter from the council 30 days after the detection date(if they can't prove the above)
PASTMYBEST
Don't let your opinion or indignation get in the way. You cannot challenge the PCN til the CC is revoked and a new PCN is served. That is it legal process ignore it and you end up with bailiffs at your door.

That you did not receive the PCN matters not providing it was correctly addressed and posted then it is presumed served unless you can prove otherwise

as regards the OfR if that goes astray things get messy, so after say 3 weeks from the date of the CC phone the council ask them have the issued the OfR if not when will they. Ask that and only that.

do not take any verbal assurances that the CC will be cancelled if they say it is then get it in writing.
cpu2007
@pASTMYBEST thank you, I will do as instructed. I will wait for the ofR and if not received in 3 weeks, I will call them.

cpu2007
I have received the following response from the council.



On the back there's an option to take this to an adjudicator within 28 days, is this the step I should be taking?
Neil B
QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 11:24) *
On the back

Need to see it.

So they've accepted reps and allowed you back into process.

What did you send ? (exactly).
PASTMYBEST
I'm an old sceptic. As far as we know there is a CC knocking about. Maybe there shouldn't be but that would be scant comfort if a bailiff grabs your car.

If you don't have it in writing that the CC has been cancelled assume that it's not. Everything else just helps towards a win at adjudication
cpu2007
They asked for photographic evidence of my car,which I attached to my response shown below:

QUOTE
To whom it may concern:

As requested, I have attached photos of my vehicle's front,sides and back.

There's no crime reference number, I have spoken to the police and they have filed an Intelligence Report, the have advised to explain this to anyone asking for a crime reference number.

I have also submitted a report to the DVLA.
Should you require further information about the police report or DVLA, please contact the relevant body with my details and they will be able to assist you further.

Kind regards


What is frustrating is that they asked for photographic evidence and then they stated is not enough.

@PASTMYBEST sorry, would you be able to elaborate on that, are you saying that I might get the bailiffs? that sounds really quick.

This is the back of the letter:

PASTMYBEST
I am saying there is a process governed by law,

the council serve a PCN. in this case this also serves as the NTO (not legally correct but serves for the explanation). You can then pay or make reps. If you pay all done and dusted.
If you make reps the council need respond.

You did neither so this moves on. A charge certificate is issued. You can do nothing at this stage but pay.

The next step for the council is to register the debt and serve an order for recovery.

You have now sent them a representation, they have used their discretion to accept this out of time O K but. What has happened to the CC?

It can now have no validity and you will move on to the next stage, adjudication.

The CC is still there, so the tea boy finds it on a desk thinks this needs to go to TEC, the debt is registered. OfR is issued you do nothing either coz you don't receive it or because you have appealed Next step bailiffs turn up.

So what I am saying is get written confirmation that the CC is cancelled
cpu2007
Thank you so much for taking time to explain this.
I will contact the council and tell them to give me the status of my appeal and whether the Charge certificate has been cancelled or not.

I will make sure I do this by email so I got it in writing.

In the meantime, should I go ahead and appeal for the adjudication?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 16:36) *
Thank you so much for taking time to explain this.
I will contact the council and tell them to give me the status of my appeal and whether the Charge certificate has been cancelled or not.

I will make sure I do this by email so I got it in writing.

In the meantime, should I go ahead and appeal for the adjudication?


You should go ahead, but not blindly. On top of the cloned car issue, where you need to get as much evidence together as you can, we need to look at any procedural issues

You do not need nor should you rush this

You have til the 12th of nov
John U.K.
QUOTE
I will contact the council and tell them to give me the status of my appeal


What is the online status of your PCN - it will be under 'Pay my PCN' / 'View my PCN' or somesuch? Take a screenshot.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (John U.K. @ Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 17:32) *
QUOTE
I will contact the council and tell them to give me the status of my appeal


What is the online status of your PCN - it will be under 'Pay my PCN' / 'View my PCN' or somesuch? Take a screenshot.



No need to ask the status of your appeal. You have not made one yet. You made representations and they were rejected, hence the letter entitled notice of rejection.

ALL YOU WANT FROM THE COUNCIL IS CONFIRMATION THE CC IS CANCELLED
Neil B
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 17:50) *
QUOTE (John U.K. @ Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 17:32) *
QUOTE
I will contact the council and tell them to give me the status of my appeal


What is the online status of your PCN - it will be under 'Pay my PCN' / 'View my PCN' or somesuch? Take a screenshot.



No need to ask the status of your appeal. You have not made one yet. You made representations and they were rejected, hence the letter entitled notice of rejection.

ALL YOU WANT FROM THE COUNCIL IS CONFIRMATION THE CC IS CANCELLED

John said status of PCN.
Checking out your concerns PMB.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 18:23) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 17:50) *
QUOTE (John U.K. @ Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 17:32) *
QUOTE
I will contact the council and tell them to give me the status of my appeal


What is the online status of your PCN - it will be under 'Pay my PCN' / 'View my PCN' or somesuch? Take a screenshot.



No need to ask the status of your appeal. You have not made one yet. You made representations and they were rejected, hence the letter entitled notice of rejection.

ALL YOU WANT FROM THE COUNCIL IS CONFIRMATION THE CC IS CANCELLED

John said status of PCN.
Checking out your concerns PMB.


it might be something or nothing, but I hate it when OP's and councils go off track. process has a habit of coming back and biting you
Neil B
QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 16:01) *
What is frustrating is that they asked for photographic evidence and then they stated is not enough.

We haven't seen that request from them and it may go some way to alleviate the point PMB has raised.

But, be fair; did you think this sentence was appropriate?
QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 16:01) *
QUOTE
To whom it may concern:
Should you require further information about the police report or DVLA, please contact the relevant body with my details and they will be able to assist you further.


Effectively, 'do it yourselves'.

--
We always need to SEE docs. We get too many 'interpretations' of what people think Councils are saying.

Rejection page 2.

Using TPT piccy with referral to website is unacceptable imo.
Mandatory info missing.

and one day someone will be brave enough to challenge based on being given that very TPT info:

'within 28 days' and 'delivery' my arse.
cpu2007
I am sorry, I can understand that might sound inappropriate but it wasn't my intention.
The police didn't give me any reference number, neither did the DVLA and all they said was that should the council need more information about this issue they can contact the police and the police will be able to prove that I submitted a report.

Here's my appeal to the adjudicator:

QUOTE
Dear Adjudicator,

I am making the following appeal for the Penalty Charge Notice *** for the vehicle with registration ***.

According to the PCN sent by the council, the contravention occurred 14th of August 2017 at 13:55 on Bridge street, Broadway, Bradford.

This appeal is on the grounds that the contravention did not occur and there are procedural issues with the Penalty Charge Notice.

The first notification I received from the council was a charge certificate dates as 19/09/2017, requesting an amount of £90.

The Charge Certificate stated that a Notice to Owner (NTO) was sent to me on the 18/08/2017 but I did not receive anything prior to the Charge Certificate.

Upon receiving the Charge Certificate, the first thing I did was to check the photographic evidence online as I did not remember ever being in Bradford on that day, let alone at that time.

Having assessed the evidence, what I realized that the vehicle looked exactly like mine and I was really shocked but when I looked carefully, I realized it wasn’t my car.
The reason I believe the vehicle wasn’t mine is because on the 14th of August(Monday) I was at work in Morley at the following postcode LS27 0WH, which is over 12 miles from the location where the contravention occurred and there’s no way I could not be in both places.

When I looked at the pictures carefully, I realized that the plate number on the car was placed on the front bumper whereas the plate number on my car is placed on the windscreen. (see pics)


Furthermore, if we carefully look at the plate number, one thing is clear, these are two distinct plate numbers. My vehicle plate number contains extra information on the side whereas the plate number shown by the council has just a white background.



I strongly believe someone has cloned my vehicles registration number and has been using it on a similar car and as soon as I received the Charge certificate from the council I decided to contact the police and the DVLA.

The police created an intelligence report and they said there’s no reference number for it but they requested me to notify the council and tell them that, should they need more information, they can contact the police to know whether I have submitted a report.
I did also contact the DVLA in regards to this matter and they told me that unfortunately they can’t do anything about this but they acknowledged my submission and put it on record and told me to notify the council about the submission.

In conclusion, I believe I did everything in my power to get to the bottom of this issue by:

Reporting this issue to the police
Reporting this issue to the DVLA
Explaining the situation to the Council
Sending them photographic evidence of my vehicle when the council requested them

Despite that, I asked the council to send me high quality video footage of the contravention as the one on their website was recorded in awful quality and my request was completely ignored.

I feel like the council has been totally uncooperative and made this situation even worse as I am now highly concerned about someone using a cloned vehicle registration number.

I will really appreciate the adjudicator to take these information in consideration and have the penalty charge notice cancelled.

Kind regards
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Sun, 29 Oct 2017 - 17:26) *
I am sorry, I can understand that might sound inappropriate but it wasn't my intention.
The police didn't give me any reference number, neither did the DVLA and all they said was that should the council need more information about this issue they can contact the police and the police will be able to prove that I submitted a report.

Here's my appeal to the adjudicator:

QUOTE
Dear Adjudicator,

I am making the following appeal for the Penalty Charge Notice *** for the vehicle with registration ***.

According to the PCN sent by the council, the contravention occurred 14th of August 2017 at 13:55 on Bridge street, Broadway, Bradford.

This appeal is on the grounds that the contravention did not occur and there are procedural issues with the Penalty Charge Notice.

The first notification I received from the council was a charge certificate dates as 19/09/2017, requesting an amount of £90.

The Charge Certificate stated that a Notice to Owner (NTO) was sent to me on the 18/08/2017 but I did not receive anything prior to the Charge Certificate.

Upon receiving the Charge Certificate, the first thing I did was to check the photographic evidence online as I did not remember ever being in Bradford on that day, let alone at that time.

Having assessed the evidence, what I realized that the vehicle looked exactly like mine and I was really shocked but when I looked carefully, I realized it wasn’t my car.
The reason I believe the vehicle wasn’t mine is because on the 14th of August(Monday) I was at work in Morley at the following postcode LS27 0WH, which is over 12 miles from the location where the contravention occurred and there’s no way I could not be in both places.

When I looked at the pictures carefully, I realized that the plate number on the car was placed on the front bumper whereas the plate number on my car is placed on the windscreen. (see pics)


Furthermore, if we carefully look at the plate number, one thing is clear, these are two distinct plate numbers. My vehicle plate number contains extra information on the side whereas the plate number shown by the council has just a white background.



I strongly believe someone has cloned my vehicles registration number and has been using it on a similar car and as soon as I received the Charge certificate from the council I decided to contact the police and the DVLA.

The police created an intelligence report and they said there’s no reference number for it but they requested me to notify the council and tell them that, should they need more information, they can contact the police to know whether I have submitted a report.
I did also contact the DVLA in regards to this matter and they told me that unfortunately they can’t do anything about this but they acknowledged my submission and put it on record and told me to notify the council about the submission.

In conclusion, I believe I did everything in my power to get to the bottom of this issue by:

Reporting this issue to the police
Reporting this issue to the DVLA
Explaining the situation to the Council
Sending them photographic evidence of my vehicle when the council requested them

Despite that, I asked the council to send me high quality video footage of the contravention as the one on their website was recorded in awful quality and my request was completely ignored.

I feel like the council has been totally uncooperative and made this situation even worse as I am now highly concerned about someone using a cloned vehicle registration number.

I will really appreciate the adjudicator to take these information in consideration and have the penalty charge notice cancelled.

Kind regards



You will need to show some evidence to support that your car has been cloned. The adjudicator like the council will not search for it

There are more grounds but without You obtaining evidence that supports you claim it is not your car you will lose. without sight of the documents we have asked for ALL of them it is hard to offer advice
Mad Mick V
OP---- you might also consider this thread and post 33 onwards:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1326575

It would be interesting to pose the question that the 2009 TRO precedes approval for bus lane enforcement.

Mick
cpu2007
@PASTMYBEST what kind of other evidence should I be showing. In the appeal I am attaching some pics showing my plate number, how my car looks and how the registration number on the other car looks.
I have reported this to the police and I have a letter from the DVLA saying that they have acknowledged my report.
I don't see what else I can possibly show now.

@mad mick I'll look into it thanks.
PASTMYBEST
I see this error in the tiny part of the PCN you show us

QUOTE
the inclusion in brackets of the word (delivered). The postal service is not universally reliable and delivery could be 3,4 5 or even more days after the date of posting. This would not matter without this addition as without the ability to rebut service it would needs be accepted as two working days after posting. The inclusion of (delivered) removes that certainty, again leaving me in danger of submitting an appeal late.

I respectfully refer the adjudicator to the finding of Mr Justice Jackson in the high court neutral citation number [2006] EWHC 2357(admin) The queen on the application of London borough of Barnet council v the parking adjudicator

paragraph 39 (last sentence) “there must always be certainty of the date when the notice was issued and the dates when the various periods for payment expire.” also paragraphs 41, 43 to 46, available in the key cases files.



Post the rest of the docs and we might find more
cpu2007
Thank you, I will add this to the appeal,

PS: I'VE noticed I can't edit my initial post so I am going to add all the documents I've received from the council on here:

1st Charge Certificate



2nd


3rd Notice of rejection



That's all I have
PASTMYBEST
That was just a cut and paste from another appeal. In its current form it in nonsensical so. You have until the 12th of Nov to register your appeal so hold fire a few days let me put something together
Got a bit of a hit and miss week this week so bump to remind me if I've not done it by friday
Neil B
QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Sun, 29 Oct 2017 - 20:51) *
@PASTMYBEST what kind of other evidence should I be showing. In the appeal I am attaching some pics showing my plate number, how my car looks and how the registration number on the other car looks.
I have reported this to the police and I have a letter from the DVLA saying that they have acknowledged my report.
I don't see what else I can possibly show now.

I'm confused.
There's a few mentions of what you intend to send, intended to send or are/were preparing to send
but what have you actually sent in to the Council so far?

QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Thu, 5 Oct 2017 - 14:38) *
I have reported the police, they haven't generated a reference number but said that they have submitted an intelligence report.

What do actually have from the Police?

cpu2007
Thank you PASTMYBEST, I will be looking at the links and what you wrote to see what to do with it;

@NeilB in my post #23 I have explained what I've done so far and what I've given.

I was supposed to send photographic evidence, the council in their letter asked for evidence about my car. I took photos of front, sides and back like they requested and yet they said is not sufficient.

One thing to note is that whoever was using my plate number, made sure he had the exact model of my car and there's no different whatsoever between my car and the car seen in the contravention.
However, one big difference, which was one of the reasons that led me to believe that someone was using fake registration number is that in my car I don't have the plate number on the bumper(it's on the windscreen) whereas on the car the plate number is on the bumper.
Secondly, my plate number looks real, it has the supplier name at the bottom and the GB euro logo on the side. The other plate number is all white background with my vehicle registration number on it(something that could have been printed anywhere)

I don't have anything from the police, I called 101 and explained everything and the lady told me she submitted an intelligence report, which means ANPR on police cars will be searching for my registration number, she also added that I might get stopped as a result of that.
When I asked for reference, she said for these things there's no crime reference or anything other, I told her how was i supposed to tell the council about this and she just said to tell them I have reported the issue and if council queries the police about my registration number, the police will be able to confirm the submission of my report.
PASTMYBEST
Post the photos and those of the council
cpu2007
Mine



Council
PASTMYBEST
Let's not beat about the bus. The councils photos are what they are. They have no opportunity to take more in situ. You do and frankly if you had presented those in evidence to me,
I would not accept them. You need more than one with your number plate in the windscreen (illegal anyway) you could have taken that off at any time.

The councils the car appears jet black, whilst yours are more a midnight blue. What colour does the v5c say.

On yours there are some scuffs on the wheel arch, you cannot tell on the councils, but on yours there is quite a nasty scratch on the wing, you should be able to see that on the councils evidence.
If they have some photos that show this then they have acted unfairly in not producing them
cpu2007
@PASTMYBEST I totally agree with you on this matter.

For example, like you said, the plate number isn't a strong evidence because I could have taken that off,
One can argue that scratches were caused after the contravention hence not seen in the council pics and shown in mine
Everything I say could easily be replicated if someone wanted to get away but the point here is that as a normal person I don't go around logging every single thing I do and strongly believe the council should be put to strict proof on whether that is my car or not.

The car colour is black, i think those pics by the council are taken in black and white and mine are high resolution while sunny hence the color difference

however I noticed the council pics showing a car in immaculate condition whereas mine is full of scratches and scuff. I asked the council for high resolution evidence but they didn't provide them and what I'm assuming by the look on the council pics might just be as a result of low quality pics with a lot of missing pixes(hence looking new and scratch less)
cpu2007
@PASTMYBEST
I was going to send the appeal to the adjudicator but noticed one of the points you've made about the technical issues with their documents has disappeared.
can you please tell me what the point was about?
Thanks
cpu2007
won the case they decided not to go ahead.Thanks guys
John U.K.
Good smile.gif

Please post up their Notice of Acceptance of reps.

Or were you notified by tribunal that they had folded?
cpu2007
It was on the tribunal website, it says I won the appeal because the authority did not contest the appeal

Reason

QUOTE
On the balance of probabilities, the appellant's vehicle may have been cloned.


Frustrating that I did not send anything different in the tribunal appeal, I sent the same evidence that were submitted during the formal appeal to the council.
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