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Full Version: PCN Haringey - Performing a prohibited turn No right turn
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Boothzor
Just received a nasty document today from Haringey London.





Losing the will to live with these dammed things, I've got to remember that EVERYTHING is out to get you.

This happened during the hours 10-12 which everyone seeks parking because your not allowed to park in those hours in most places in that area. Which in result causes so much congestion on that road on top of what it's already like and you have large double decker busses that obscures road signs, etc.

What would be the next course of action, or If I should even contest this altogether? Anybody know appeal success rate for these circumstances?

Thanks in advance for reading my problem and for all your post ! smile.gif
Boothzor
Please help :/
Mr Mustard
The border between the boroughs of Camden & Haringey goes down the middle of the road and therefore the two boroughs should have a written agreement as to who enforces and one does not exist. The turn actually takes place in Camden and so I simply deny Haringey's right to send a PCN. You will have to risk the discount and go to the tribunal to win though.
Boothzor
Thank you for your response Mr Mustard. Whata name btw, lol.

Okay so Haringey has absolutely no right to send this as the offence did not happen in their district.

So will that be the base on which this PCN will be declined, but of course I will have to express this when I go to tribunal? Is it worth risking the discount?
PASTMYBEST
You need, and we could help better if we see the video. Get if from the council and post

Mr M this site is hit and miss as to adequacy of signage, Has your approach won?
Boothzor
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 16:20) *
You need, and we could help better if we see the video. Get if from the council and post

Mr M this site is hit and miss as to adequacy of signage, Has your approach won?



How do I go about requesting the footage?
Mr Mustard
I agree that signage arguments are trickier. My approach won in case 2160328774

The Appellant is represented by Mr Dishman.

Mr Dishman submits that the Authority has no power to issue a Penalty Charge Notice because the alleged contravention took place in the Borough of Camden.

The Authority disagrees. It agrees that South Grove lies within the Borough of Camden but the banned turn restriction "is placed in Haringey".

I take it that the Authority is saying that the signs are in Haringey but even that is not correct. The offside sign is in Camden. I do not think in any event that the location of the sign is relevant. It is the prohibited turn that is relevant.

The Traffic Management Order describes the prohibiting as proceeding in Highgate High Street N6 to turn right into South Grove. I find therefore that the contravention can only occur if a vehicle has travelled into South Grove and this can only in Camden.

The position can be covered by an agreement between the two Boroughs as to who should enforce the prohibition. There is no evidence that this has been done. I allow the appeal.


I am fairly sure no agreement has since been signed.
DJ Lexy
I would respectfully disagree with an assertion that Haringey has no stake in this PCN.

The most common reason for a right-turn prohibition isn't to protect the road you're turning into - it's to protect the road you're turning out of. On busy roads where there's lots of oncoming traffic, it can take a while for a car to turn right.

The problem is worst on roads where you can't pass a car on the left, either because of parked cars or because there isn't enough space. In these situations all you need is a couple of cars waiting to turn right and you've got a traffic nightmare on your hands as big queues build up behind them.

If you appeal based on "the road I turned into isn't in your area, so the contravention doesn't affect you", I'd imagine the council would reply with a statement to the effect of what I've just written.

The contravention isn't for turning into the street, because you can turn left from the opposite direction. The contravention is for turning into the street from the position you did (presumably Haringey's side of the street).

I wouldn't appeal purely on the boundary between the councils. I'd get hold of the video evidence.
Boothzor
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 16:34) *
I agree that signage arguments are trickier. My approach won in case 2160328774

The Appellant is represented by Mr Dishman.

Mr Dishman submits that the Authority has no power to issue a Penalty Charge Notice because the alleged contravention took place in the Borough of Camden.

The Authority disagrees. It agrees that South Grove lies within the Borough of Camden but the banned turn restriction "is placed in Haringey".

I take it that the Authority is saying that the signs are in Haringey but even that is not correct. The offside sign is in Camden. I do not think in any event that the location of the sign is relevant. It is the prohibited turn that is relevant.

The Traffic Management Order describes the prohibiting as proceeding in Highgate High Street N6 to turn right into South Grove. I find therefore that the contravention can only occur if a vehicle has travelled into South Grove and this can only in Camden.

The position can be covered by an agreement between the two Boroughs as to who should enforce the prohibition. There is no evidence that this has been done. I allow the appeal.


I am fairly sure no agreement has since been signed.



Okay so I guess I need a representative at the tribunal and he can highlight the point you are bringing up, and should be good success?
Boothzor
QUOTE (DJ Lexy @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 16:41) *
I would respectfully disagree with an assertion that Haringey has no stake in this PCN.

The most common reason for a right-turn prohibition isn't to protect the road you're turning into - it's to protect the road you're turning out of. On busy roads where there's lots of oncoming traffic, it can take a while for a car to turn right.

The problem is worst on roads where you can't pass a car on the left, either because of parked cars or because there isn't enough space. In these situations all you need is a couple of cars waiting to turn right and you've got a traffic nightmare on your hands as big queues build up behind them.

If you appeal based on "the road I turned into isn't in your area, so the contravention doesn't affect you", I'd imagine the council would reply with a statement to the effect of what I've just written.

The contravention isn't for turning into the street, because you can turn left from the opposite direction. The contravention is for turning into the street from the position you did (presumably Haringey's side of the street).

I wouldn't appeal purely on the boundary between the councils. I'd get hold of the video evidence.


Thank you for your advice. Just seen the footage now on the Haringey.gov site but don't know how to download it so I can post it here, any idea how?
stamfordman
QUOTE (Boothzor @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 17:55) *
Thank you for your advice. Just seen the footage now on the Haringey.gov site but don't know how to download it so I can post it here, any idea how?


If you PM me the details I'll do it for you but can't do til Wednesday as am away in Brussels (yes, I'm negotiating our return to the EU).
Boothzor
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 21:05) *
QUOTE (Boothzor @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 17:55) *
Thank you for your advice. Just seen the footage now on the Haringey.gov site but don't know how to download it so I can post it here, any idea how?


If you PM me the details I'll do it for you but can't do til Wednesday as am away in Brussels (yes, I'm negotiating our return to the EU).


Hi mate, I've PM'd you the details.
stamfordman
Video doesn't tell us much other than you didn't hesitate to make the turn...

Mr Meldrew
I’ve seen the video and it doesn't tell me whether, on 03/08/17, there was a prohibited right turn in place at all. How is an accused, especially one unfamiliar with the road, supposed to determine from useless footage whether to pay up or challenge the PCN? Haringey were told at least 2 years ago, 2150454171, that “the contemporaneous footage does not show the signage” [video link] and they’ve done sod all about it, or it's back as it was.

Of course, that alone might not be enough to get the PCN cancelled, but I think it wouldn’t help Haringey’s case if people on here, and the OP, were to consider exploring whether to take this further. Searches show that Highgate High Street junction with South Grove has had several failures for Haringey at London Tribunals on the grounds of the ambiguity of the signage. I wonder what the council have done about this in 2 years.
Incandescent
QUOTE
I wonder what the council have done about this in 2 years.

Sweet FA, of course !!
If they did something they'd make less money, because well over 95% of people just cough-up. This is the dark heart at the very centre of all parking enforcement by councils. Until money-grubbing is taken out of the system, councils will continue in their venal and rapacious ways.
Mr Mustard
Actually I think they have added one extra no right turn sign but that doesn't help.

What they should do is either make it physically impossible, put a solid white line down the middle of the road or remove the restriction. I think there are plans afoot to remodel the area traffic wise although that will take time. For now, we are where we are.
Boothzor
Thank you all for your input. I'm not from London so I don't know the road layouts there at all really.

What would you recommend to be the next course of action?
Mr Mustard
I would make a challenge on line that the location being within the London Borough of Camden grants no power to issue a PCN to Haringey.

That's it, keep it simple.
Boothzor
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 10:17) *
I would make a challenge on line that the location being within the London Borough of Camden grants no power to issue a PCN to Haringey.

That's it, keep it simple.


So in my appeal to Haringey all I need to include is the following..

I refute Haringey Council's legal right to issue me with a PCN as the borough boundary runs down the middle of the road, between the two traffic lanes, and accordingly the car is entirely in the London Borough of Camden before it crosses the junction of Highgate High St and South Grove at which time the contravention is committed.

And that is sufficient?
Mad Mick V
OP-- I would only use what Mr.M suggested simple as that--- let's not get into the status of the road or what manoeuvre your vehicle undertook.

The Council needs two agreements ---enforcement (joint or otherwise) and reciprocal permission on signage.

Mick
Boothzor
What Mr M suggested is exactly what I've got in my previous post. So I will appeal to Haringey online using those lines in my previous post?

QUOTE
I refute Haringey Council's legal right to issue me with a PCN as the borough boundary runs down the middle of the road, between the two traffic lanes, and accordingly the car is entirely in the London Borough of Camden before it crosses the junction of Highgate High St and South Grove at which time the contravention is committed.
Boothzor
Please help:/ ?????
Mad Mick V


As the location of the contravention is within the London Borough of Camden, the Borough of Haringey has no power to issue a PCN and must therefore cancel the charge.

That's it, keep it simple, let them figure it out and justify their position.

Mick
Alinaz
Hi Boothhzor,

What was the outcome with this? Any luck?
Mas950
Hi,
I was just wondering what the outcome of this case was as I just received a PCN for the same contravention at the same turning.
Mr Mustard
Please start your own thread with a copy of the PCN minus name & address and car reg
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