Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: ADVICE: Speeding & MS90 - Company Car
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
LeeT123
Hello,

I hope that someone will be able to give me some advice!

On Friday I had a letter come through the post from Merseyside Magistrates Court, for a notice of fine and collection order.

On 29th May 17 I was caught speeding (39mph in a 30), completely my fault. Though until now I thought that dual carriageway was a 40 limit!

I have had a subsequent charge of Failing to give information relating to the identification of the driver of a vehicle when required – I’ve been given 6 points and a £826 fine!

This is the first letter which I have had, though, they claim they sent me a Single Justice Procedure Notice on 20th July which I haven’t received. I have a copy of it now, as I have spoken to the Courts and they have sent me a copy of it. On it, both charges are mentioned.

I've missed the initial Court hearing and been charged in my absence, hence the points and fine.

I’m scratching my head a little around the subsequent charge, as it's a company car I am not the registered keeper, so I assume that the initial NIP would have went to ARI (Fleet Management Company) – who may/not have given my information.

Having spoken with ARI, they’ve said that they deal with all fines etc. they’re calling me back tomorrow morning to discuss.

I also have the Courts calling me tomorrow to do a Statuary Declaration, I will be pleading not guilty to the subsequent offence, and guilty to the speeding.

In my view, I am not guilty of the Failing to provide information - am I right here?

I'd just like to gauge others views on this matter and would really welcome any experiences or advice!

Thank you!

Lee
peterguk
Have you checked what address your employer (or leasing company) gave for you when they responded to their S.172 request?
LeeT123
Hi JLC,

Thanks for the quick reply, and advice.

Quick question, I was prior to this instance clear of any points whatsoever. Why would it be of risk going to trial on the s172?

I can't get my head around the fact that I am not the registered keeper of the car, so, they would have written to ARI the Fleet Management Firm. who I assume have then given my information. Which they (Police) would have subsequently written to me - which is the SJP Notice I assume? On it, it has the failure to provide charge on there, well if that was the first letter I should have received then how could I have failed to provide information - it's the first correspondence they'd sent to me directly.

Am I missing something?

Thanks,

Lee

QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 28 Aug 2017 - 22:37) *
Have you checked what address your employer (or leasing company) gave for you when they responded to their S.172 request?


Hi Peter,

No I haven't I am speaking with them in the morning.

However, I have checked the web portal which we use for them and my correct address is on there. Furthermore, this letter I have in hand detailing notice of fine and collection order has my correct address on.

They (ARI) have said they deal with fines, which I have had a PCN in the past and they contacted our Transport team who then contacted me. So I would have assumed that if they got the NIP then they'd have done the same?

Thanks,

Lee
BaggieBoy
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Mon, 28 Aug 2017 - 22:42) *
Am I missing something?

The SJPN would not have been the first correspondence to you, they would have first sent a NIP/S.172 notice and when there was no reply then they would have resorted to the SJPN.
LeeT123

The SJPN would not have been the first correspondence to you, they would have first sent a NIP/S.172 notice.

I haven't received any of that, and assume it went to the registered owner ARI - which I'll find out tomorrow.
LeeT123
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Mon, 28 Aug 2017 - 23:13) *
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Mon, 28 Aug 2017 - 22:42) *
Am I missing something?

The SJPN would not have been the first correspondence to you, they would have first sent a NIP/S.172 notice and when there was no reply then they would have resorted to the SJPN.


I haven't received any of that, and assume it went to the registered owner ARI - which I'll find out tomorrow.
peterguk
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Mon, 28 Aug 2017 - 23:41) *
I haven't received any of that, and assume it went to the registered owner ARI - which I'll find out tomorrow.


The RK will have received the first NIP/S.172.

They will have provided the details of their customer. Might have been your employer if they provide you with a company car. Or (unlikely) you if you leaee the car direct.

Once they have named their customer, they are out of the picture.

Some one named you. And for some reason you received none of the correspondence.
LeeT123
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 28 Aug 2017 - 23:53) *
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Mon, 28 Aug 2017 - 23:41) *
I haven't received any of that, and assume it went to the registered owner ARI - which I'll find out tomorrow.


The RK will have received the first NIP/S.172.

They will have provided the details of their customer. Might have been your employer if they provide you with a company car. Or (unlikely) you if you leaee the car direct.

Once they have named their customer, they are out of the picture.

Some one named you. And for some reason you received none of the correspondence.


Thanks...

No I haven't received anything other than this latest letter. Bearing in mind it's a company car, I travel avg. 35k per year - it would always be in my best interests to respond to any fine/points etc. As my livelihood depends on it.

Based on what you've read, am I accountable for failing to provide? I can't provide if I don't know anything about it - whether from employer or not receiving correspondence?

Lee
Logician
QUOTE
I also have the Courts calling me tomorrow to do a Statuary Declaration, I will be pleading not guilty to the subsequent offence, and guilty to the speeding.


There is a well established procedure in such cases which all concerned will go along with. The prosecutors prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, the speeding, but they have no evidence you were driving at the moment. So make the statutory declaration, which cancels your conviction and resets the position to what it was before that hearing. You will then be asked to plead to the two offences, and you should plead not guilty to both offences. That will move the case to a regular court hearing. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead Guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.

If you had received the NIP you could have nominated yourself as the driver and would then have received the offer of a fixed penalty. The normal sentencing for speeding in court would be rather more severe than this, so you would have been disadvantaged. Therefore you should point this out to the court and request to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level, which is a guideline for magistrates' courts in these circumstances. The actual wording of the guideline is:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances.

In fact of course you would normally have been offered a course for that level of speeding, but the court cannot offer you that. So it is worth tracking down where the procedure went wrong and prevented you receiving the NIP to try to ensure that it works properly on any future occasion.
andy_foster
This doesn't seem right. Please check the details.

Technically, it is possible that an SJPN could have been issued on 20/07/2017 for failing to provide the driver's information for a speeding offence on 29/05/2017, but it is all but unheard of for the wheels of justice to grind so quickly in speed camera cases.

What should happen is-

2-14 days after the speeding offence, a NIP/s. 172 is served on the RK
RK names you (or an intermediary who names you, etc.)
NIP/s. 172 is send to you, giving 27 days from date of service to provide the required information
'Reminder' usually sent if no response, but not required.
SJPN eventually issued (usually just before 6 months from speeding offence)

Ignoring the question mark over the dates, it would seem that at least one NIP/s. 172 (dates provided suggest that no reminder was sent) and the SJPN were not served. Unless you have ongoing issues with post getting lost, it seems unlikely that 2 properly addressed notices would get lost. Is your address on the SJPN correct?

A NIP/s. 172, if properly addressed and sent by pre-paid first class post, is deemed to have been served 2 working days after posting unless the contrary is proven. The s. 172 offence is complete at the expiration of 28 days beginning with the date of service, subject to any applicable defences. If the notice was properly addressed, etc., then you would need to persuade the court (on the balance of probabilities) that it was not delivered.
The Rookie
Is 29th May the date of the speeding offence or the date of the S172 offence (which would look about right and more likely).
LeeT123
[quote name='andy_foster' date='Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 00:28' post='1311768']
This doesn't seem right. Please check the details.

Hi Andy,

I've had the original NIP from ARI today, the offence did occur on 29th May at 20:49 as I'd initially mentioned.

They sent the NIP to ARI on 31st May.

ARI emailed my employer on 1st June, advising of the NIP, however neither notified me - though they have no obligation to.

I'm yet to speak to the Court, but want to establish was an NIP sent to me (if so when) in addition to reminder & SJPN, as I haven't received any of it - I'm not sure why someone wouldn't respond to the original NIP I certainly would have as my job depends on me driving.

Is the best course of action to plead not guilty to both offences then on the day of trial seek out the Prosecutor and plead guilty to the initial charge on the premise of dropping the later charge?

Thanks,

Lee
peterguk
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 13:19) *
ARI emailed my employer on 1st June, advising of the NIP


ARI should have named your employer and returned the S.172 to the Police. Did they do this?

Your employer would then have received a S.172 request. When did they receive it?

Your employer should have named you and and returned the S.172to the Police. Did they do this?
LeeT123
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 13:29) *
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 13:19) *
ARI emailed my employer on 1st June, advising of the NIP


ARI should have named your employer and returned the S.172 to the Police. Did they do this?

Your employer would then have received a S.172 request. When did they receive it?

Your employer should have named you and and returned the S.172to the Police. Did they do this?


Hi Peter,

ARI state responded to the NIP / S172 on 1st June after receiving it on 31st May, I have a copy of the email which they sent to my employer, which has a copy of the NIP/S172 and their confirmation they've responded to the issuing authority.

So it would seem that they have responded, I guess the issue lies in whether the issuing authority have sent me an NIP etc. I only know that they claim to have sent an SJPN as the court have given me a copy of it via email. As I'd mentioned the only correspondence I have received is the Notice of Fine and Collection Order.

I'm getting increasingly worried that this doesn't have a good outlook for me, I'm really frustrated as I know I haven't received it as I would have responded.
peterguk
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 13:42) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 13:29) *
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 13:19) *
ARI emailed my employer on 1st June, advising of the NIP


ARI should have named your employer and returned the S.172 to the Police. Did they do this?

Your employer would then have received a S.172 request. When did they receive it?

Your employer should have named you and and returned the S.172to the Police. Did they do this?


Hi Peter,

ARI state responded to the NIP / S172 on 1st June after receiving it on 31st May, I have a copy of the email which they sent to my employer, which has a copy of the NIP/S172 and their confirmation they've responded to the issuing authority.

So it would seem that they have responded, I guess the issue lies in whether the issuing authority have sent me an NIP etc. I only know that they claim to have sent an SJPN as the court have given me a copy of it via email. As I'd mentioned the only correspondence I have received is the Notice of Fine and Collection Order.


I'm not interested in what ARI sent to yuor employer. Their only onbligation is to reply to the Police. Did they do this?

And when did your employer receive their S.172? Your employer will have relied naming you. What address did they use for you?
LeeT123
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 13:49) *
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 13:42) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 13:29) *
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 13:19) *
ARI emailed my employer on 1st June, advising of the NIP


ARI should have named your employer and returned the S.172 to the Police. Did they do this?

Your employer would then have received a S.172 request. When did they receive it?

Your employer should have named you and and returned the S.172to the Police. Did they do this?


Hi Peter,

ARI state responded to the NIP / S172 on 1st June after receiving it on 31st May, I have a copy of the email which they sent to my employer, which has a copy of the NIP/S172 and their confirmation they've responded to the issuing authority.

So it would seem that they have responded, I guess the issue lies in whether the issuing authority have sent me an NIP etc. I only know that they claim to have sent an SJPN as the court have given me a copy of it via email. As I'd mentioned the only correspondence I have received is the Notice of Fine and Collection Order.


I'm not interested in what ARI sent to yuor employer. Their only onbligation is to reply to the Police. Did they do this?

And when did your employer receive their S.172? Your employer will have relied naming you. What address did they use for you?


My employer didn't get a s172, ARI complete it on their behalf. They have used my address, the correct address.?
The Rookie
As presumably your Co replied by email, can you get a copy of that reply?
LeeT123
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 14:13) *
As presumably your Co replied by email, can you get a copy of that reply?


My company didnt need to reply to anything, my name, address details are held by ARI so they just completed the NIP/s172 and sent it off. Then they emailed my employer, stating that they'd received an NIP for me and responded.
BaggieBoy
So the only logical step after ARI returned the S172 notice naming you, is for the police to issue a new S172 notice (not a strictly a NIP) directly to you. There is no way they could go direct to a SJPN, because if no S172 notice has been issued, then a Failing to Furnish charge could not be raised. It seems there is some missing documentation.
NewJudge
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 14:17) *
My company didnt need to reply to anything, my name, address details are held by ARI so they just completed the NIP/s172 and sent it off. Then they emailed my employer, stating that they'd received an NIP for me and responded.


Then the way to go is as per Logician's reply #9.
LeeT123
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 14:22) *
So the only logical step after ARI returned the S172 notice naming you, is for the police to issue a new S172 notice (not a strictly a NIP) directly to you. There is no way they could go direct to a SJPN, because if no S172 notice has been issued, then a Failing to Furnish charge could not be raised. It seems there is some missing documentation.


Thanks Baggie.

It does seem the case, I am worried sick! I've phoned the court today reference Stat Dec and they said they're busy so will be in touch tomorrow.

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 14:23) *
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 14:17) *
My company didnt need to reply to anything, my name, address details are held by ARI so they just completed the NIP/s172 and sent it off. Then they emailed my employer, stating that they'd received an NIP for me and responded.


Then the way to go is as per Logician's reply #9.


Thanks...

One question Logicians suggestion...

Won't he/she think I am rude, asking to strike a deal?
peterguk
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 14:32) *
Won't he/she think I am rude, asking to strike a deal?


Not if you say "please" and "thank you".


Have you checked what address ARI hold for you? Seems odd all thei post using the address they provided goes missing...
BaggieBoy
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 14:32) *
Won't he/she think I am rude, asking to strike a deal?

Nope, it's being done routinely every day. We even had a force recently that suggested it could be done at the SJPN stage.
NewJudge
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 14:32) *
One question Logicians suggestion...

Won't he/she think I am rude, asking to strike a deal?


No. It's done every day in courts across the country and is standard practice. Prosecutors would far rather see a straightforward conviction for speeding than have to run a trial for Failing to Supply driver's details. There are even reports that some areas are making the offer of this deal when they initiate court proceedings. See this question:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=115446
LeeT123
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 15:01) *
QUOTE (LeeT123 @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 14:32) *
One question Logicians suggestion...

Won't he/she think I am rude, asking to strike a deal?


No. It's done every day in courts across the country and is standard practice. Prosecutors would far rather see a straightforward conviction for speeding than have to run a trial for Failing to Supply driver's details. There are even reports that some areas are making the offer of this deal when they initiate court proceedings. See this question:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=115446


Thank you all very much, I'll follow this course of action and hope for the best. As a matter of courtesy I will update you.

As a precautionary measure I'm going to ask the court if I can collect the letters or send correspondence to an alternative care of address, which is serviced by a different delivery office - try and minimise any further risk!

andy_foster
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 00:28) *
Is your address on the SJPN correct?

LeeT123
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 20:06) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 00:28) *
Is your address on the SJPN correct?



Hi Andy,

Yes the address is correct on the SJPN, as it is on the Fine and Collection Order.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.