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bigtimecriminal
Hi all

I parked on a bridle way as usual to walk the dog,ive had a PCN here a year or so ago from flashpark and phoned them which you cant seem to do any more and spoke to the guy who said "you sound like you are going to be hard work" and wrote the fine off which i got him to send a proof email of to be sure.

So onward to the current year/month and i`ve just received another PCN from flashpark in exactly the same spot which is a public right of way/bridle way,its a bumpy road that leads to some residentials and a stables.

I wrote an email to flash park who wrote back saying you need to appeal and with that sent a couple of links about cases won by these cowboy parking fine companies.

So my questions are
are they even allowed to issue these fines on public rights of way ie a bridle way?
What are the rules about signage for these fines because they have 1 sign near where i parked but this was obstructed by a van at the time of me parking there as it usually is because the van belongs to a flower shop opposite,but when they took the picture of my car the van had gone (see attached picture of my car,where the one parking sign is circled in red and where the van was expertly drawn in yellow).

i argued last time that they should have signs clearly visible on both sides of the road (bridleway) and that the entrance to said road/bridle way says nothing about it being private property (see attached picture of the entrance).

so what are the rules about signage as i know on public roads it needs to be visible on both sides and every 10 meters or so.

fire away smile.gif
bigtimecriminal
this was the reply from flash park to my first email

Dear sir or madam,

We are responding following you email to us regarding a parking charge notice.

We only accept appeals that are in writing and have a signature, they must be sent to the address below.

If you are appealing on the issue of law we would ask you to review the two recent test cases that relate to tickets on private land

Recent Test case links below

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-43...king-fines.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-34721126

You can write to Vehicle Control Solutions Ltd T/A Flashpark,

P.O Box 21425

Highgate

London

N6 5UG

The full details on how to appeal are published on our web site a link to the page is below

https://flashpark.co.uk/Appeals.aspx

The other option is for you to approach the landlord or the person in charge of the site where you are parked and ask them to cancel the parking charge notice. We act for them on this occasion.

To do this the owner of the site can log on to their control panel and cancel the ticket.

It’s in your interest to appeal to us as this gives you access to POPLA the tribunaral set up to deal with disputes.

Flashpark uses an independent tribuneral POPLA top deal with cases where an appeal is rejected by the a parking operator, If your appeal is accepted then the case is closed and there is nothing to pay, if we win (the operator) win the case then you will lose the opportunity to pay the reduced rate which is held at £50 and the full amount as per the warning signs will be due.

Regards

Flashpark Appeals Team
ostell
If this is a bridleway it could be the subject of byelaws. This would kill it stone dead. Check with the local council about the status of that road.

There's certainly no signs where it meets station road. Post up pictures of the signs and also your PCN, with identifying details removed.

You will be brining in unclear signage,
bigtimecriminal
Thanks for the reply Ostell

Added pics of the letter.
In the close up of the alleged offence (naughty boy) i`ve shown in red where that property building ends,i dont park right outside it just to be nice smile.gif and i dont think it`s them that have taken the photo anyway.

Note how the camera operator has had to stand right back down the lane just to get the one sign in the shot,a good 10 meters away from the car.
I shall enquire about the status of byelaws on this track,it`s probably been there for hundreds of years as there are some historic places locally,Roman villas etc.

there is another one of these signs on a property wall much further up the track on the same side maybe 50 meters away which again looks like it belongs to that one property and dont suggest it is for the entire track/road but there are no signs at all on the opposite side anywhere at all.

There are 2 signs on the entrance to the road although you cant really see them as they are covered by a bush,one says `bridleway` and the other is a Kent county council path number. but that is all for signage,there is no road name or anything else and certainly not anything to say `private road` ,`no parking` etc.




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bigtimecriminal
This is another pic of the entrance just showing 2 signs which are there although hidden by a bush.One says `bridleway,the other is a Kent county council track number 0192/SR32A/4.

But thats all ,no sign to say private or anything else.


images uploader
emanresu
Flashpark sell signs and self-issued PCN's so it is likely to be one of the places around that has issued it(1). You could complain to various people e.g council or DVLA but that'll get nowhere(2). Simply ignore or send a final letter saying take the driver to court and stop bothering the Keeper. (3)

Notes

1. The ticket issuer has used their camera phone in the hope of getting a £10 commission and may know how to operate a phone but not the law.
2. The DVLA has gone into their shell using the proposed legislation in 2018 as a means of covering their backsides. Sound of a shredder ongoing at Swansea
3. Flashpark don't do court or POPLA as it messes up their income.

ostell
The sign is a prohibitive sign. The parking is for permit holders only and no offer of a parking contract for non permit holders.

Your PCN does not seem to contain all that is required under POFA. Here's POFA, check paragraph 9. It all has to be in there.

I can't find creditor named, period of parking, liability warning section as it should be.
bigtimecriminal
QUOTE (emanresu @ Thu, 10 Aug 2017 - 06:31) *
Flashpark sell signs and self-issued PCN's so it is likely to be one of the places around that has issued it(1). You could complain to various people e.g council or DVLA but that'll get nowhere(2). Simply ignore or send a final letter saying take the driver to court and stop bothering the Keeper. (3)

thanks for the input.

I already sent an email telling them to stop harassing me and pointed out that they tried this and failed last year so give it a rest but they replied saying i have to appeal and attached a couple of links to cases that have been won by these cowboy outfits,neither of which were even slightly similar circumstances.

Flashpark said in their email reply that they act for someone else on this site so as you say its someone getting commission that took the picture.
bigtimecriminal
QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 10 Aug 2017 - 07:45) *
The sign is a prohibitive sign. The parking is for permit holders only and no offer of a parking contract for non permit holders.

Your PCN does not seem to contain all that is required under POFA. Here's POFA, check paragraph 9. It all has to be in there.

I can't find creditor named, period of parking, liability warning section as it should be.


There is no period of parking on the PCN only a time 09:15.


So are people views to just ignore this or should i push them for an apology smile.gif
Sheffield Dave
Also, there's no indication of what area the sign applies to. It would be reasonable to assume that it only covers the little patch of ground next to the building, and not to where you were parked.
bigtimecriminal
QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Thu, 10 Aug 2017 - 10:36) *
Also, there's no indication of what area the sign applies to. It would be reasonable to assume that it only covers the little patch of ground next to the building, and not to where you were parked.



That`s exactly why i park there,you can see where that building ends by the red mark ive added to the picture above.
It`s pretty logical id say that the sign relates to that building,there are no other signs opposite either.

im just going to ignore it anyway,ive reported them to the council and awaiting a reply about what bylaws are on that bridle way.
bigtimecriminal
So i just parked there again this morning (i know i`m such a rebel) and the van was there as usual covering the sign.



Obviously it wasn't there when the camera operator took their photo but it was when i parked there as it was today in the exact same place,and again im in the same place.
I did look and the van does have a parking permit in the window.

And another picture taken from roughly the same location as the original `have a go parking warden was located`,note no signs to the left at all.



ostell
That's a good evidence photo to show that the sign was not visible. Could be done on purpose to get a bit more commission.
emanresu
Realised I've been past there in the last month. Great place. Love the duck pond in the middle of the traffic island.
bigtimecriminal
QUOTE (emanresu @ Thu, 10 Aug 2017 - 18:48) *
Realised I've been past there in the last month. Great place. Love the duck pond in the middle of the traffic island.


That`s the one smile.gif


QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 10 Aug 2017 - 12:24) *
That's a good evidence photo to show that the sign was not visible. Could be done on purpose to get a bit more commission.


i took this yesterday not on the day i had the picture taken of my car but this is how it is pretty much every day.
regardless of the van i still think they have no right to be dishing fines out with no clue the track is private (which its not it`s a public right of way/bridle way) and the signs looks like it relates to the building it is on as there are no other signs along the track.

bigtimecriminal
So is there anyone on this forum that can tell me where i stand legally on this one and the best course of action?

Lots of opinions but it would be nice to know for sure.

thanks
ostell
So you find out who owns the land, council or whoever. Land registry inquiry on line. Have you asked your local council about the full status of the bridleway? It may be a public bridleway but it can run over private land.

You will be making an appeal against the charge but you need reasons to appeal and the questions and suggestions are to work out a full list of appeal points.

So far the points are:
No contract to operate on the land
Unclear and not visible signage
baroudeur
QUOTE (bigtimecriminal @ Fri, 11 Aug 2017 - 10:45) *
So is there anyone on this forum that can tell me where i stand legally on this one and the best course of action?

Lots of opinions but it would be nice to know for sure.

thanks


A bridleway is intended for horses (the clue is in the name).

Only a Byway Open to All Traffic (BOAT) permits vehicles use. As such it is a public highway maintained by the local authority and should be clearly signed as such. Access is often restricted at certain times of the year to prevent damage.

If there is a Kent CC sign and byway number you need to check if it is a foot byway or BOAT. A search with the number quoted above revealed nothing.

Enforcement is up to Kent CC

Edit: found this Otford byway.

You will need to see the TRO.
bigtimecriminal
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 11 Aug 2017 - 11:53) *
QUOTE (bigtimecriminal @ Fri, 11 Aug 2017 - 10:45) *
So is there anyone on this forum that can tell me where i stand legally on this one and the best course of action?

Lots of opinions but it would be nice to know for sure.

thanks


A bridleway is intended for horses (the clue is in the name).

Only a Byway Open to All Traffic (BOAT) permits vehicles use. As such it is a public highway maintained by the local authority and should be clearly signed as such. Access is often restricted at certain times of the year to prevent damage.

If there is a Kent CC sign and byway number you need to check if it is a foot byway or BOAT. A search with the number quoted above revealed nothing.

Enforcement is up to Kent CC

Edit: found this Otford byway.

You will need to see the TRO.


There is a KCC sign and number,ive asked the council for more info,they will get back to me they said. I dont think it is a BOAT ,it leads to a dead end where there is another property and a fair amount of farmland. i suspect if anyone owns the land it will be this property at the very end nearly a mile away.,Half way down it forks into another footpath/bridleway.
There are also another 5 or so propertys along this track and stables which all have access and all of these use the track/path/bridleway with their vehicles.

What is a TRO?

The path number is 0192/SR32A/4

the link you posted for greenlanes is dead,it shows nothing about greenlanes only other random links.


thanks



QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 11 Aug 2017 - 11:17) *
So you find out who owns the land, council or whoever. Land registry inquiry on line. Have you asked your local council about the full status of the bridleway? It may be a public bridleway but it can run over private land.

You will be making an appeal against the charge but you need reasons to appeal and the questions and suggestions are to work out a full list of appeal points.

So far the points are:
No contract to operate on the land
Unclear and not visible signage



so its best to appeal rather than just forget it as suggested by someone above?

"No contract to operate on the land" how do i know that?

thanks
ostell
QUOTE (bigtimecriminal @ Fri, 11 Aug 2017 - 14:44) *
"No contract to operate on the land" how do i know that?

You don't but it's up to them to prove that they do, even provide the contract.
bigtimecriminal
QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 11 Aug 2017 - 15:43) *
QUOTE (bigtimecriminal @ Fri, 11 Aug 2017 - 14:44) *
"No contract to operate on the land" how do i know that?

You don't but it's up to them to prove that they do, even provide the contract.



so at what point are they supposed to prove it?
should i be writing to them asking for proof? or should it be displayed on the sign?

thanks

to add,i was just there again and moved the bush from the bridleway sign and it has pictures to say ,walkers,horses and bicycles (like the one attached)
ostell
You appeal to Flashpark who will reject, and then you appeal to POPLA. For the POPLA appeal you require that they produce their contract and show what land they are contracted to work on.

Please read other threads to find out about POPLA etc.
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