Hello guys,

not sure where to start, I was given PCN on unloading bay at Queens Road in Richmond u. Thames. When I have finished unloading, I had to count and sign the paperwork in the shop just round the corner from the bay. This didn't take even 5 minutes, yes I'm sure. When I got back to the car the ticket was there, despite the fact that I've stayed there probably 10 mins. all together.
I did appeal the ticket, but the reply is that apparently ( and this is important) the CEO in this case is considered by TFL as credible witness. The Officer is employed by the MPS as a CO a was acting on behalf of TfL in enforcing the red route regulations. This sounds rather offensive to me, and very unprofessional considering the situation.

The issuing officer observed the vehicle from 13:25 until 13:30, incorporating a guideline that the observation should be no less than 5 minutes.
This was technically impossible, but I would give him the credit if upon me leaving the shop two elderly men did not come to me and said that the officer just issued the ticket and run away.
They were clearly local and were trying to be helpful to tell me that I can park further down the road without restriction, but I'm a girl and I had to carry heavy boxes and this was to me perfectly legal.

Anyway, I did send the appeal, obviously I received the copy/paste reply about me being non credible, meanwhile someone who has been seen doing wrong is perfectly credible.

Now. Since I've been away, today I discovered that it's probably today or tomorrow 28 days deadline to make the payment. I originally planned to ask you for help earlier, but I couldn't have done, which is a shame and I feel that I'll pay very undeserved PCN. Actually I just wanted to send the payment now, but when I do log in on to the TfL website, it doesn't let me pay. It shows my PCN number, my car REG, all details and photos, but the actual sum is showing zero, despite the fact that the letter says that they don't accept that I have established grounds or suitable reasons for the PC to be cancelled.

Now, I have no idea what do I do, I did took print screen of the TfL paying site. But what worries me, that they might want from me double money tomorrow.

What can I do, or what would you rec me to do, please.

Can you post the PCN and their rejection. Use a site such as Flickr and post the links for pics.

We've seen another case where TFL shows £0 balance - I think they have a problem with their system.

If you can't pay now you can't pay - you'll have to call them in the morning and tell them.

Sounds like you may have a good case to go to adjudication though.

sounds like a good case post the docs and a GSV. your are allowed time to unload and this must be as long as necessary to unload and get paperwork checked no more not a chat and a cuppa but longer than 5 minutes, but it is for you to explain the time taken

To add - TFL extended the loading observation time to 20 mins in its bays I think. 5 min isn't policy as such but obviously if they see a private car doing nothing they will issue.

Please post up the PCN (both sides) and all correspondence between you and TfL - redact/obscure reg. no., PCN no and your address. A Google Street View reference of the location would be good too.
On the face of it you have every right to the loading exemption, equally, the enforcement officer (who will be a Met Police TPCSO) appears to have followed correct procedure regarding 5 minutes observation.

I take it you have a delivery note dated and timed or, if not, can you get a letter from the shop saying that you had to count the goods before getting the delivery note signed and that you were there between whatever times?

scanning now

That really depends what deadline you are talking about.
If you challenged a PCN served on your vehicle then that was just 'informal'.
You would receive a 'Notice to Owner' next, with another opportunity.

The quickest way we can establish where you are in the process is to SEE all docs, as
others have asked.

They've actually reduced the observation time for Commercial Vehicles to 10 minutes Constant Oberservation in Loading Bays. As you correctly say, private cars get 5 minutes.

.

Host the images externally -

e.g. Tinypic and paste the full [IMG] codes straight in here

or Flickr the BB codes - bottom right somewhere on Flickr page.

3

So, like I said, you are not at any 28 day deadline.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157266145@N04/?

sorry guys. I'll also download the pic he made. I can't find the actual PCN, but this should be enough to know.

What's the exact location - Queen's Road is very long so their location is vague to say the least.

I can think of at least one adjudicator who would have a field day with that rejection, but the 5 minutes is not compulsory nor is it binding, if you can prove loading you will win

it's actually the corner of Queens Rd. and Upper Richmond Rd. there is some restaurant right at the corner where is my car.

I might sound stupid, but I have never done this before, I always pay if I'm being naughty, but what do I have to do now? Can you please guide me precisely.

Also if I do count correctly tomorrow it's 28th day since they issued this letter. Do I have enough time to do something about it? How do I actually prove out loading? The gentleman on the picture is actually the man who has told me, I think it's him. It was all to quick.

Ah OK - not the long Queen's Road but this one:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4652325,-...3312!8i6656

A quiet side road bay too...

I just added the pic of the actual location




yes, that's the exact bay

You tell what you told us, and support with delivery notes or other documentary proof of delivery, The norm is to allow 28 days from date of the letter so when that expires a NTO is served on you . This will give you a further opportunity to make representations to TfL,
they will no doubt reject again and you can then go to adjudication, where you will get an impartial hearing with a good chance of winning.

You might as well as it will cost nothing more if you meet all deadlines

Discount is still in play - that's what the OP is concerned about, although TFL site showing £0 owing...

Have we seen what you sent as a challenge?

ok, let me please make this clear; I will send them another letter, stating the same what I already sent them in my first appeal and what I told you here. They will send me another copy/paste letter saying that the attendant is saint and that I've done something that I've not done. after this will happened what? who is going to initiate the hearing and what do I have to do there except bringing the paperwork you have mentioned?

how long it's going to take and where is it actually happening?

But is it?
The rejection says so but no time parameters.

you have not, I sent it by the online system, never saved the copy, only the reference number, but it's exactly same as I'm telling you here. there is really nothing else, except the men talking to me, as I thought that I don't know them, how am I going to proof they spoke to me anyway?

it's not innocent until proven guilty

Noooooo

We are answering your questions and you're not listening.

PMB told you, I told you, the letter tells you what happens next. READ it!

Take a deep breath, calm down and digest the info.
You are not at risk.

I'm sorry, got it. what's NTO? something that comes through the mail? can be sure that I'll always pay only the discounted charge if all goes wrong and they tell me to go to hell?

it's the lingo they use, sometime it can be confusing to precisely understand.

is the London Tribunal scary? and any idea where is it held?

thank you guys for your patience

Yes NtO - it says on the letter, comes next.
You make formal representations against the full £130.

Despite the letter saying £65 it is no longer available I think.
TfL have forgotten to set a deadline for it in their letter.
You could argue that this means it should be available until you get NtO but that will turn into a mess, imo.

You've said they won't let you pay anyway.
We can complicate it by making arguments about that too but -

You have a good case: You've done nothing wrong.

--
More in a mo.

No, they won't let me, I also added screen shot to flicker to show that. I just don't want to go for the hearing to Manchester and facing some arrogant people. I might say what I really think and get arrested

ok.
You have done nothing wrong.

As far as TfL know, the CEO has seen a car in contravention and done nothing wrong.

TfL have done nothing wrong in rejecting you: You've provided no evidence you were loading.
That's all they wanted otherwise anyone would park free for 10+ minutes.

If you actually said this in challenge -

Imagine how the TfL numpties took it.
Better - 'My unloading included time to complete delivery paperwork'
or, better, left out and only needed to explain to an adjudicator (later stage) if it got that far.

-
So take it from there.


You have some wonderfully odd ideas in your head.

Pour me a pint of whatever that is please.

I was just kidding, as much as I dislike such situations, if I know I'm wrong I pay, but this was totally out of blue. Those two gentlemen actually said they saw him hiding and very quickly making his way away as well as he just came and immediately issued the ticket.

The system is so obscure that sometime it's easier to pay, considering how much time and worries it cost.

Go to the online system and check again on the amount and also the status - copy and paste the status timeline here.

Hello,

here it is.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157266145@N04...eposted-public/

Right short and simple.

Forget all about what it says online forget about letters that tell you about a £65 discount this is governed by law, so regardless of mistake made by Tfl saying one thing if they do what is expected then now you owe £130 and a NTO will be served.
you can then make your representation

how do I do representation?

When you get the Notice to owner come back, Representation is just the term used for the formal challenge as it will be

OP, what evidence do you have to prove unloading?

This was asked several posts ago, but you've given no details.

Pl don't mention the CEO or the authority, this is only about what you did and what you can prove you did.

The proof of loading needs only be on the balance of probabilities, so more likely than not, a statement from the shop you were unloading too could well be accepted

as I have been away and passed the paperwork further, I don't have it now, but I can obtain copies or written statement from the shop, that shouldn't be a problem as they do know what has happened to me. would that be enough?

yep it could well be

'I passed the paperwork further'


To whom? You work for a company to make deliveries? What?

Sorry to be a pain, but this and not your own recollections are the key and yet we seem as far from this detail as ever.

Snow_flake.

What is the latest on this?
Do you have the Notice to Owner?

Hello, I've got the Notice To Owner now. I've been away so, I'm kind of late.

I'm really stuck, what do I fill in?

Anyone can tell me, what do I have to do now? Please?


https://www.flickr.com/photos/157266145@N04...eposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157266145@N04...eposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157266145@N04...eposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157266145@N04...eposted-public/

reminder - this was the rejection.


Scan.jpg by snow flake, on Flickr

yes I know. I'm confused, what are you trying to say?

I posted the rejection so other members could get up to speed with what you need to put in your formal appeal to the NTO. Wait for input.

NTO dated 6 October.

What we have been saying all along. You have a fair case so listen to what you are being told listen to the questions asked and answer them.

You have until the 6th of Nov to serve your representations (formal challenge) on TFL.

Do you have the evidence we have asked you to obtain.

Proof of delivery, by way of delivery notes witness statement (letter from shop) etc. If not you must get them.

make your representation along these lines.

You stopped at **.** to effect delivery to xxxx premises, the unloading, checking and signing process took approximately ** mins. I returned immediately to my vehicle, found the PCN and left
As I was engaged in an unloading activity at all times whilst parked I am entitled to have been so parked and no penalty is due.

I trust that you will find the enclosed evidence of unloading sufficient, and look forward to receiving notice of cancellation

I'd go further.

I do not dispute that according to the authority's guidelines the CEO was entitled to and was correct in issuing the PCN, but despite your letter dated *** labouring this point it is not relevant to my representations which are that I parked at the location in order to deliver *** to ***. Whether this takes less or more than 5 minutes is not the legal test which the authority are obliged to apply, it is whether I was engaged in the activity permitted by the traffic order for no longer that 20 minutes.

The authority are not suggesting that I was parked for more than 20 minutes, therefore the only issue regarding the contravention is whether I was engaged in loading/delivering. Please find enclosed the following evidence:

*******
*******

As you will see, these clearly establish that I was engaged in the permitted activity and therefore the PCN must be cancelled.


OP, I have brought to the fore the issue of whether the PCN shoul have been issued - yes it should. But similarly it's not the point and so let's hope that this time the authority give proper consideration to your reps. All this presupposes that you do have evidence!

I do have original invoice and signed delivery note, also as I have been loading as well, I do have bank statement stating that I paid there for other goods, as I probably misplaced original till receipt. I'll be looking for the receipt over the weekend, but I might bin it, not 100% sure if I still have it..

I've had around 360 items to count in the shop.

The owner of the shop provided me with original invoice and delivery note, not witness statement, as he suggested that should be enough.

Don't say anything about shopping

I suggest you stick verbatim to HCA's draft and include the invoice and delivery note as evidence

+1
Don't confuse the poor dears.

I was loading (or was it delivering?) here is the delivery note and invoice as proof
Please cancel.
Hugs and kisses.

If you want to simplify it, needs little more then that.