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MrSlaphead
Hello my friend is disabled and has a blue badge . He parked in a space where you could park 3 cars in 2 disabled spaces outside his hotel where there is no time limit . He has had a pcn for parking outside bay , he was parked in the middle of 2 other cars . Is it worth appealing or does he not have a leg to stand on ?
I have noticed that car was observed for less than 1min before ticket issued and cars were parked like this the whole week he was staying and no one else got pcn as far as I'm aware
Appreciate any help please
Regards
Click to view attachment
stamfordman
Is it here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0386696,-...3312!8i6656

Or maybe here outside Holiday Inn:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.040055,-0...3312!8i6656

There is an obvious problem in taking space supposed to be for people to get in and out easily.

If you can get the council's pics that would help.

I'm not sure the PCN code is correct - others will advise.

Also, the location may be wrong - that slip road is maybe Cresswell Lane and has both hotels on it?
DancingDad
You need to confirm location, is the streetview link right ????

Cos if it is, the contravention cannot have occurred with your mate was parked nose into the kerb.

Council photos will confirm.

Don't expect Milton Keynes to roll over on this easily, they have used this contravention before in circumstances that beggar belief and do not accept error easily.
But if your mate was parked into the kerb, cannot lose as long as they stick with it.
They will likely tell you (as you refer to as well) that is for not being in a bay.
That is incorrect, it is for parking more then 50cm from the edge of the carriageway, the bit about not being in a designated parking bay refers to an exemption, not the contravention.
This is the legislation, Section 85 Traffic Management Act 2004
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/85
MrSlaphead
Hi He was in bay outside holiday inn

Also Midsummer Boulevard is the main road , he was in Cresswell Lane you already mentioned
MrSlaphead
Could anyone tell my friend how to proceed please he is not the best at challenging paperwork mistakes
Many thanks
stamfordman
I can't see that you view pics online so email:

mkparking@milton-keynes.gov.uk

and ask for pics, quoting the PCN number. Also, what's on the back of the PCN - there should be something about viewing evidence.

By the way, this is you I take it - no need to disguise driver identity on council matters, only for private PCNs.
DancingDad
Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ????

The contravention did not occur.
My vehicle was parked nose/tail into the kerb and overhanging the kerb.
Therefore it cannot have been more then 50cm from the edge of the carriageway.
I am sure that your CEO pictures will confirm.

The contravention did not occur
My vehicle was parked within parking spaces outside the Holiday Inn on Cresswell Lane.
Not on Midsummer Boulevard as the PCN alleges.

Given the two items above, the PCN cannot be enforced and I look forward to your confirmation of cancellation.
Should you decide not to cancel, I require all CEO photos and notes that you may rely upon in further enforcement action and a statement from your legal team exactly why Section 85 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 is being applied as this PCN alleges.
Hugs and Kisses

Personally I'd send the above rather then mess around getting pictures and possibly getting delayed out of process.
Change nose/tail as needed but apart from that you can send as is.
Don't forget to include postal address and name for any replies

Don't panic if they reject, just get back to us.
MrSlaphead
Thanks so much for the letter , his car was reversed into bay so that will be tail yes ? Does he email or write to address also ?
Appreciate all your help 👍🏻😊
nosferatu1001
You send it to the exact location they specify. If they give email, use email. If they only give an address, use the address. If posting, post |FIRST CLASS with FREE PROOF OF POSTING. No other method.

Nose is the front, tail is the rear wink.gif
hcandersen
OP, you started with 'my friend was parked' and now it's 'my car was reversed..'

Who is the registered keeper and on whom can we rely for first-hand info?
MrSlaphead
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 15:03) *
Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ????

The contravention did not occur.
My vehicle was parked nose/tail into the kerb and overhanging the kerb.
Therefore it cannot have been more then 50cm from the edge of the carriageway.
I am sure that your CEO pictures will confirm.

The contravention did not occur
My vehicle was parked within parking spaces outside the Holiday Inn on Cresswell Lane.
Not on Midsummer Boulevard as the PCN alleges.

Given the two items above, the PCN cannot be enforced and I look forward to your confirmation of cancellation.
Should you decide not to cancel, I require all CEO photos and notes that you may rely upon in further enforcement action and a statement from your legal team exactly why Section 85 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 is being applied as this PCN alleges.
Hugs and Kisses

Personally I'd send the above rather then mess around getting pictures and possibly getting delayed out of process.
Change nose/tail as needed but apart from that you can send as is.
Don't forget to include postal address and name for any replies

Don't panic if they reject, just get back to us.

DancingDad
Why am I not surprised.

Muppets !

Could you post the photos in full please?

They are conflating the need to be in a bay with the 50cm, double parking rules...... should not be allowed out without a keeper this lot.
MrSlaphead
Hello I'm trying to post the photos of car but says I've used all my available space , any ideas
John U.K.
QUOTE (MrSlaphead @ Wed, 9 Aug 2017 - 11:24) *
Hello I'm trying to post the photos of car but says I've used all my available space , any ideas

Try this:
Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:
Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems. Thera are other sites, such as Flickr, which enable you to paste the BBCodes into your post here.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image - beginning with IMG and ending /IMG (include all the square brackets [ ] ), and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.

Redact/obscure name, address, PCN number and reg.mark.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.

Also post up a GSV (Google Street View) link to the location.
MrSlaphead




It's just not working , is there a way I can email them to you to post . Really sorry I haven't a clue what I'm doing 😑😑😑
stamfordman
Have sent you a private message.
stamfordman
Letter with pics follows - has got your name and car reg but I'll delete the pics when we're done.

Agree with DD - a bizarre wrong contravention situation surely.

image11 by stamfordman, on Flickr
image2 by stamfordman, on Flickr
image1 by stamfordman, on Flickr
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 9 Aug 2017 - 16:06) *
Letter with pics follows - has got your name and car reg but I'll delete the pics when we're done.

Agree with DD - a bizarre wrong contravention situation surely.

image11 by stamfordman, on Flickr
image2 by stamfordman, on Flickr
image1 by stamfordman, on Flickr


yep they might have got you on not parked within the markings of the bay but not the 50cm restriction
MrSlaphead
Anywhere can go with it or is it a case of pay before it goes up ? They didn't even mention the fact contravention happened on different road to what was put on ticket
DancingDad
No way do you pay up !!!

The situation is normal for Milton Keynes.
They slap on a PCN for a dubious contravention (or non existent in this case) and when challenged their contractors spew out a load of old rowlocks that make it seem as though black is white.

The one photo that shows the full car shows the tail very close to the rear kerb, certainly close enough that with nothing to contradict, any adjudicator would give the benefit of the doubt.
Couple that with a rejection letter that misses one point and deals with the other as though it is a totally different contravention, you cannot lose.
Just need to hold your nerve and go through the process.
Which we will help you with.
MrSlaphead
Thanks , so do I just wait for next letter or do I appeal . Appreciate your help
MrSlaphead
So do I wait for them to contact me or do I have to appeal please . You've been fantastic help . Thanks so much πŸ‘πŸ»
nosferatu1001
a) dont post twice bumping within 2 horus. Thats bad form smile.gif
b) the next step, AIUI, is the Notice to Owner. THat is the point at which you make formal reps.
Did they supply anything other than the photos?
MrSlaphead
Sorry the first post wasn't showing hence why posted again .

The letter is further up post
MrSlaphead
So sit and wait then yea
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (MrSlaphead @ Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 13:51) *
So sit and wait then yea



yep wait for nto
MrSlaphead
NTO arrived today , feel free to help rolleyes.gif
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (MrSlaphead @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 16:48) *
NTO arrived today , feel free to help rolleyes.gif


feel free to post it
stamfordman
happy to help

mk
MrSlaphead
Thanks so much for posting for me again
stamfordman
QUOTE (MrSlaphead @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 23:12) *
Thanks so much for posting for me again


I have updated it hiding your personal details.
MrSlaphead
Appreciate it πŸ‘πŸ»
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (MrSlaphead @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 23:12) *
Thanks so much for posting for me again


There is the WILL/MAY issue re the increase if payment or reps not received. Basically the council fetter their discretion by saying they will do something the regs only allow that they may
MrSlaphead
So any suggestions how to play this
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (MrSlaphead @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 23:22) *
So any suggestions how to play this



yep but you have til the 28th Sept so lets mull things over and have a bit of a debate about the best tack
MrSlaphead
Ok thanks everyone.
hcandersen
Dear Mr. Parking,
PCN ******; VRM *******

I refer to the above PCN dated ***, my representations dated ***, your letter dated ** in which you rejected my reps and your NTO dated ****.

Evidentially the contravention did not occur and therefore, adopting the style used in your letter dated ***, you have the following choices:

To cancel the PCN; or
To either not contest or lose any subsequent appeal and risk incurring costs on behalf of the council.

Should you elect for the second option, I should also make a formal complaint against whoever authorises the Notice of Rejection that they have recklessly risked tax payers' money.

The contravention did not occur for the following reasons:
The alleged contravention requires the authority's evidence to establish three matters of facts i.e. that the vehicle was parked on the carriageway, that no part of it was within 50cm of the edge of the carriageway at any point and that the vehicle was not parked wholly within a parking place.

The tests are sequential and according to the authority's own evidence in the form of photographs taken by the CEO at the time this fails the second test - unless of course the parking place was not even on the carriageway, in which case not only does the evidence fail the first test, the parking place is situated unlawfully on the footway. But for my purposes I accept that the vehicle was parked on the carriageway the concomitant of which (let the b******s look up the meaning of the word) is that the nearest edge of the carriageway lay behind my car and it is this reference point and this only which may be used for the purposes of analysis.

For a reason possibly known only to the CEO no photographs were taken of the edge of the carriageway behind my car or that part of my car closest to it. Similarly, for reasons possibly known only to the authority my initial representations were rejected because you considered that I failed the third test, a point which you laboured in your letter to the exclusion of the first two tests.

In any event, it is clear from your photographs - and if not clear enough for you, I enclose a Google Street Map view showing the line of the edge of the carriageway - that not only do the authority not have any evidence that no part of my car was within the specified distance, parts of my car were clearly within that distance.

The authority's legal burden is to show that each test has been failed.
Your evidence does not.
As above, I look forward to receiving your Notice of Acceptance.

Hugs
DancingDad
Oooh, HCA has his grump hat on. smile.gif

Plus 1 BTW, love the draft and nothing to add.

Edit...one thing may as well throw in.

The parking space in question is not where cited but in Cresswell Lane.
I would add it at end of the contravention did not occur paragraph
MrSlaphead
I was going to ask about that part Cresswell Lane , surely that alone makes it invalid no ?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 16:52) *
Oooh, HCA has his grump hat on. smile.gif

Plus 1 BTW, love the draft and nothing to add.

Edit...one thing may as well throw in.

The parking space in question is not where cited but in Cresswell Lane.
I would add it at end of the contravention did not occur paragraph


A thing of beauty to behold is it not. cuts short any need for debate rolleyes.gif

Only thing I would add is don't forget to edit out the bit in brackets
DancingDad
I would add the Creswell Lane bit, though even I hesitate to mess with such a thing of beauty.

I would add as below
QUOTE
The contravention did not occur for the following reasons:
The alleged contravention did not occur where cited. The place in question is Cresswell Lane, a matter that can easily be established on local maps.
The alleged contravention requires the authority's evidence to establish three matters of facts i.e. that the vehicle was parked on the carriageway, that no part of it was within 50cm of the edge of the carriageway at any point and that the vehicle was not parked wholly within a parking place.
hcandersen
Just a rough draft!

πŸ˜‰
MrSlaphead
One last thing . I have to write this yea 😝😝😝
DancingDad
QUOTE (MrSlaphead @ Wed, 6 Sep 2017 - 13:39) *
One last thing . I have to write this yea 😝😝😝


Wot copy and paste was invented for biggrin.gif

Use what HCA wrote with my tweak, just add the relevant bits like PCN number.
Keep a copy.
Send it.

This time, Milton Keynes council will likely consider but are no better then their contracted muppets so once again, do not panic if they reject.
MrSlaphead
Just wasn't sure if could email or had to hand write my reply ? 😬🀐
DancingDad
QUOTE (MrSlaphead @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 21:37) *
Just wasn't sure if could email or had to hand write my reply ? 😬🀐


What's it say on the back of the NtO ?

Most councils accept email or on line reps but check the NtO
MrSlaphead
Will look in morning , got a feeling I have to send in envelope
MrSlaphead
Yes postal only . They do like to make things as difficult as possible don't they . I will print off and send with editing .
DancingDad
Post from post office, get a free certificate of posting.
Keep a copy of what you send.
DJ Lexy
I'm really not a fan of that parking job. Even if your friend has a blue badge, squeezing between two other cars really wasn't a good idea. They've put two big bays for a reason - somebody could have needed that extra space. You mentioned that nobody else got a PCN. This hints that somebody probably phoned the council to complain and they sent someone round specifically to take a look at that.

Having said that, the council are in the wrong here. They're trying to enforce a completely invalid PCN, and I'm not a fan of that either.

A PCN has to be issued for a specific contravention. A council cannot issue a PCN for one thing, and then try and enforce it for a different reason. I tore Glasgow apart when they tried that on me, and now they're doing it to your friend.

The way your friend parked, he should have received a PCN for contravention 24: "Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space". That is the contravention he has committed.

He has not committed the contravention of "Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50 cm from the edge of the carriageway and not within a designated parking place". That contravention is for parking along the edge of a street, but obnoxiously far from the kerb, or double-parking.

If this has to go to adjudication (which, considering the half-wit response from Indigo, it probably will) you have an easy win. It doesn't matter if you committed a completely different contravention, the fact is that the contravention they have issued the PCn for for did not happen.
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