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kbo
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - June 2017
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A338 Wessex way, dean park bournemouth
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 6
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Due to multiple address changes in the last 3 years, I could not keep up with updating the V5, and as such could not react to speed offences/letter sent to old addresse in northern ireland.
First speed offence happened on Wessex way near Bournemouth in January, I did not realize this until I got a message from my old landlady claiming an important letter from court -ordering me to pay 800£ / and take notice of penality : 6 points. that is around the 14th of June of this year
I immediately called central ticket office, to find out, there were 4 more offences , with nip serverd to old address, 4 of them happened in the same place (Wessex way).
I wonder what is the best course of action? going to court seems inevitable, what then ? ask for leniency ? on the basis I was not aware of any of the offence til very end ? ...please help


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 23:18:48 +0000
StuartBu
Sounds like a job for a Statutory Declaration for the January one but others will advise about this and about the other 4 .
Any specific reason why you didnt change your address on the V5C- have you taken steps to sort this now. did you give your present address when you phoned up?
Logician
Yes, you need to do a statutory declaration in respect of this offence which will be a s.172 offence rather than the speeding it refers to; that will set aside your conviction and the process will re-start so you will be asked how you plead, you need to indicate not guilty for both the s.172 and the speeding if that is also listed, as hopefully it will be. That will result in a date for a trial being set, on that occasion you can hopefully agree with the prosecutor that the s.172 charge will be dropped if you agree to plead guilty to the speeding. You also need to get the other four cases heard on the same occasion to avoid complications. As you already have 6 points and there are two locations involved in the five cases you refer to, even the most sympathetic court will give you a further 6 points so you will become a totter, liable to be disqualified for a minimum of 6 months, unless you can show this would cause exceptional hardship to yourself or, more significantly, other people. I doubt the court will be overly sympathetic, given that your failure to receive the NIPs is owing to your own inaction in not updating the V5C or arranging forwarding of your post, but you should certainly ask.
Jlc
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
Due to multiple address changes in the last 3 years, I could not keep up with updating the V5, and as such could not react to speed offences/letter sent to old addresse in northern ireland.

You'll have to expand - it's not that difficult to update the v5 and is a requirement to do so.

QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
I wonder what is the best course of action? going to court seems inevitable, what then ? ask for leniency ? on the basis I was not aware of any of the offence til very end ? ...please help[/b]

Logician has summarised but it appears all roads lead to an exceptional hardship plea to continue driving. 'Leniency' isn't going to help here - the Police may have considered some for repeated offences at the time depending on the circumstances. The sentencing guidelines and processes are fairly much set but if your licence hasn't been revoked already then you can continue driving for now. (It's not clear if the 6 points you listed predate the most recent 6 mentioned)
The Rookie
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
First speed offence happened on Wessex way near Bournemouth in January, I did not realize this until I got a message from my old landlady claiming an important letter from court -ordering me to pay 800£ / and take notice of penalty : 6 points. that is around the 14th of June of this year

You have/had 21 days from when you found out about the court case in which to perform a statutory declaration, so you need to get a weave on if its not to late.

With 5 cases against you you'll be facing a 6 month totting ban anyway.

You can do the SD at a solicitors at a cost of £10 or do it for free at your local court when you'll have to plead not guilty in order to try and do the plea bargain at a subsequent hearing.
kbo
S[quote]
Sounds like a job for a Statutory Declaration for the January one but others will advise about this and about the other 4 .
Any specific reason why you didnt change your address on the V5C- have you taken steps to sort this now. did you give your present address when you phoned up?
[/quotend]

Yes I gave the police and court, my current address: I would not have received the "copy" NIP/section172 otherwise. I have lived an average of 5-6 months in any given shared house since 2014. even staying abroad ...few months /weeks
I neglected the paperwork I have to admit. I am fixing it now
kbo
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 09:40) *
Yes, you need to do a statutory declaration in respect of this offence which will be a s.172 offence rather than the speeding it refers to; that will set aside your conviction and the process will re-start so you will be asked how you plead, you need to indicate not guilty for both the s.172 and the speeding if that is also listed, as hopefully it will be. That will result in a date for a trial being set, on that occasion you can hopefully agree with the prosecutor that the s.172 charge will be dropped if you agree to plead guilty to the speeding. You also need to get the other four cases heard on the same occasion to avoid complications. As you already have 6 points and there are two locations involved in the five cases you refer to, even the most sympathetic court will give you a further 6 points so you will become a totter, liable to be disqualified for a minimum of 6 months, unless you can show this would cause exceptional hardship to yourself or, more significantly, other people. I doubt the court will be overly sympathetic, given that your failure to receive the NIPs is owing to your own inaction in not updating the V5C or arranging forwarding of your post, but you should certainly ask.


I was fined 800 £, and 6 point for the first s.172, I am wondering if could ask for speed awareness course for the single offense which happened in different location on one side, and make a statutory declaration for the first offense, on wessex way, and try to get a court hearing for the 3 other offenses in the same location bundled together.

I have had to live an average of few weeks to few months in UK shared house and abroad for the last 3 years, sometimes working sometimes un-employed. I have to admit I neglected the aspect of paperwork, I was hoping some leniency plea for that, I know it is naïve, but it all I have
southpaw82
The course option is long gone.
kbo
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 10:29) *
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
First speed offence happened on Wessex way near Bournemouth in January, I did not realize this until I got a message from my old landlady claiming an important letter from court -ordering me to pay 800£ / and take notice of penalty : 6 points. that is around the 14th of June of this year

You have/had 21 days from when you found out about the court case in which to perform a statutory declaration, so you need to get a weave on if its not to late.

With 5 cases against you you'll be facing a 6 month totting ban anyway.

You can do the SD at a solicitors at a cost of £10 or do it for free at your local court when you'll have to plead not guilty in order to try and do the plea bargain at a subsequent hearing.


Sorry meant 14 July not June. I am expecting a call from court/admin about the SD. Not sure what you mean by "you'll have to plead not guilty in order to try and do the plea bargain at a subsequent hearing".
Is it pleading not guilty for the S.172, to bargain a guilty plea for the speed offence ?

QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 09:57) *
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
Due to multiple address changes in the last 3 years, I could not keep up with updating the V5, and as such could not react to speed offences/letter sent to old addresse in northern ireland.

You'll have to expand - it's not that difficult to update the v5 and is a requirement to do so.

QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
I wonder what is the best course of action? going to court seems inevitable, what then ? ask for leniency ? on the basis I was not aware of any of the offence til very end ? ...please help[/b]

Logician has summarised but it appears all roads lead to an exceptional hardship plea to continue driving. 'Leniency' isn't going to help here - the Police may have considered some for repeated offences at the time depending on the circumstances. The sentencing guidelines and processes are fairly much set but if your licence hasn't been revoked already then you can continue driving for now. (It's not clear if the 6 points you listed predate the most recent 6 mentioned)


- Well since my last address in Northern Ireland, had to change address: 9 times in matter of less than 3 years, in different countries sometimes for job purposes,/un-employment. . Relaying mails, changing addresses when you stay sometimes few months or even few weeks in a given place, is not that obvious
-
jewels2009
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 13:22) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 10:29) *
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
First speed offence happened on Wessex way near Bournemouth in January, I did not realize this until I got a message from my old landlady claiming an important letter from court -ordering me to pay 800£ / and take notice of penalty : 6 points. that is around the 14th of June of this year

You have/had 21 days from when you found out about the court case in which to perform a statutory declaration, so you need to get a weave on if its not to late.

With 5 cases against you you'll be facing a 6 month totting ban anyway.

You can do the SD at a solicitors at a cost of £10 or do it for free at your local court when you'll have to plead not guilty in order to try and do the plea bargain at a subsequent hearing.


Sorry meant 14 July not June. I am expecting a call from court/admin about the SD. Not sure what you mean by "you'll have to plead not guilty in order to try and do the plea bargain at a subsequent hearing".
Is it pleading not guilty for the S.172, to bargain a guilty plea for the speed offence ?


Correct. In order to bargain you need both on the table, so NG to both, until court and bargain.
kbo
Would anyone advise if it make sen
s to fill in all NIPs and requested a court hearing, plead non guilty and challenge evidences and possibly resort to a solicitor ?
Jlc
QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 09:48) *
...plead non guilty and challenge evidences

On what basis do you plan to do this?
peterguk
QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 09:48) *
Would anyone advise if it make sense to fill in all NIPs and requested a court hearing, plead non guilty and challenge evidences and possibly resort to a solicitor ?


If you have been convicted they are history.
Jlc
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 09:58) *
QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 09:48) *
Would anyone advise if it make sense to fill in all NIPs and requested a court hearing, plead non guilty and challenge evidences and possibly resort to a solicitor ?


If you have been convicted they are history.

Indeed, if convicted then the Statutory Declaration, as above, is the way to proceed. Or are these 'current' NIP's you have now received?

If so, you must name the driver regardless of whether you want to challenge them. (For which you'll need an actual defence)
The Rookie
How will you defend the S172 allegation when you yourself admit you committed the offences by not replying in the permitted 28 days. Whether or not the speeding occurred (and it almost certainly did) is irrelevant to that. Completing the S172 request after you've been summonsed doesn't change that and in fact throws away your bargaining point (rather foolishly).

I think you'd be much better advised to stick to plan A (or do nothing at all) than risk being found guilty of all S172 AND all original offences!
kbo
I have been convicted, while not even knowing I was tried for failure to identify driver (S172) AND the first speeding offence.
I am booked for a statutory declaration for S172 and first speed offence
The 5 other offences I have yet to be tried , and the police is expecting me to fill in the NIP and name drivers for them.
I am writing a letter accompanying the 5 NIPS, to request the 5 offences to be added to the hearing which will occur due to the statutory declaration of the first one.
I might bargain a drop of the S172 of the first NIP, in exchange of pleading guilty for the speeding offences.
Even if the alleged offenses are all below 48 for a 40 limit, they are all happening the exact same location, (except for one, in a different location with 39 for 30 limit, will try the scam of speed awareness lesson for that one).
I have no doubt I will loose my license ...I can only plea I had no knowledge of all this happening due to my V5 not updated.

If not bargain can be achieved, I will go for non guilty plea, and seek evidences of the "offences" ...
This whole thing looks like a system of legal thieves, a racket system ...the goal is to make money out of minor speed excesses, that can have nothing to do with security
peterguk
QUOTE (kbo @ Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 20:35) *
nothing to do with security


What does security have to do with speeding?

If you are able to plea bargain each S.172 for the underlying speeding offence, then you are no worse off than you would have been had your V5C been at an address where you could have received your mail in a timely fashion.

QUOTE (kbo @ Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 20:35) *
If not bargain can be achieved, I will go for non guilty plea, and seek evidences of the "offences" ...


A NG plea for the offences is going to be very expensive day out as it is 99.9% likely the evidence will be at hand. What do you hope to gain by doing that?

The Rookie
Your in a pretty poor place, you commited a number of criminal offences and it seems your excuse is that it's because you commited another one by failing to update the V5C.

Your best bet is to get all the case to court and dealt with at the same time, one exceptional hardship plea, get them heard serperately and you can't use the same arguments for the two subsequent totting hearings and are pretty much a certainty to lose your licence for 6 months.

Plead not guilty at the stat Dec and then when you get a court date explain you want them all heard together.
andy_foster
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 20:38) *
What does security have to do with speeding?


He means safety. Presumably, English is his second language, and his first language is one in which safety and security are essentially the same word.
His point is basically a rant about how the system is about extracting money, rather than road safety. However, unless he is going to overthrow the government before his court hearing(s), or is forming a political pressure group, his opinions are not relevant - which you already know.

QUOTE
If you are able to plea bargain each S.172 for the underlying speeding offence, then you are no worse off than you would have been had your V5C been at an address where you could have received your mail in a timely fashion.


Not sure that that is particularly relevant, but I am fairly sure that it is untrue - although once again that is not particularly relevant.
If the OP had received the NIP/s. 172s in a timely manner, or otherwise had the vehicle correctly registered at the material times, apart from the slim chance of being able to defend the speeding allegations if there were any viable defences (can't 'plea bargain' to plead guilty to the speeding in return for dropping the s. 172 and then try to defend the speeding you've just pleaded guilty to), having been aware of impending proceedings for one or two offences, the OP would not only be aware taht he was likely to lose his licence if he continued to drive at that speed at that location, but would presumably have been more aware of speed limits, and the need to abide by them, elsewhere.

QUOTE
QUOTE (kbo @ Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 20:35) *
If not bargain can be achieved, I will go for non guilty plea, and seek evidences of the "offences" ...


A NG plea for the offences is going to be very expensive day out as it is 99.9% likely the evidence will be at hand. What do you hope to gain by doing that?


Pleading not guilty to a single s. 172 offence and then losing would see a substantial increase in costs, and a loss of the 1/3 discount for an early guilty plea. However, assuming that the cases are heard together, the increase in costs would be dwarfed by the multiple fines, if he were to lose. I find your estimate of 99.9% to be somewhat fanciful. Whilst most of them were a few years ago, and procedures may have been tightened up since, I would estimate that in well in excess of 10% of the cases I have been involved in, insufficient evidence was adduced on the day.
kbo
"He means safety. Presumably, English is his second language, and his first language is one in which safety and security are essentially the same word."

I thought "security", has this definition: security noun: the state of being free from danger or threat. I found this definition perfectly relevant to our context ...Is the forum about grammatical correctness, or as it states "helping motorist to get justice" ? Is my English not good enough for anyone to understand ?

Pleading non guilty, with the hope to find lack of evidences about the speed offences, some might be dropped, is the police absolutely certain and infallible (sorry if not the correct work, just trying my best here). The first offense cost me 800 £, how much higher can it get, if I plea guilty and loose








Jlc
A not guilty plea opens the defendant up to the full prosecution costs. The listed CPS cost for a contested trial is £620.

For most cases they may not claim that full amount but it's possible to go much higher should expert witnesses by required - possibly well over £1k or more.

Whilst the prosecution may mess it up or have issues it's a risky strategy on the whole.
The Rookie
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 09:40) *
Pleading non guilty, with the hope to find lack of evidences about the speed offences, some might be dropped, is the police absolutely certain and infallible (sorry if not the correct work, just trying my best here). The first offense cost me 800 £, how much higher can it get, if I plea guilty and loose

How do you intend to get around the S172 offences already committed without doing a plea deal? Contest the speeding and they may decide not to bother and prosecute for the S172 offences (bigger fine and 6 points each instead).

What speed do you think you were probably doing? Be honest, unless you have an easy technical defence based on the enforceability of the limit this will not be easy.
jewels2009
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 09:40) *
Yes, you need to do a statutory declaration in respect of this offence which will be a s.172 offence rather than the speeding it refers to; that will set aside your conviction and the process will re-start so you will be asked how you plead, you need to indicate not guilty for both the s.172 and the speeding if that is also listed, as hopefully it will be. That will result in a date for a trial being set, on that occasion you can hopefully agree with the prosecutor that the s.172 charge will be dropped if you agree to plead guilty to the speeding. You also need to get the other four cases heard on the same occasion to avoid complications. As you already have 6 points and there are two locations involved in the five cases you refer to, even the most sympathetic court will give you a further 6 points so you will become a totter, liable to be disqualified for a minimum of 6 months, unless you can show this would cause exceptional hardship to yourself or, more significantly, other people. I doubt the court will be overly sympathetic, given that your failure to receive the NIPs is owing to your own inaction in not updating the V5C or arranging forwarding of your post, but you should certainly ask.


OP. I think that you need to go and get a tea, sit down, and read this post again with the hindsight of the information now in your possession.

It sets out your position clearly, gives you the instructions of what to do to maniipulate that situation ( if possible) to your best advantage and tells you pretty much whst your expect to receive in terms of penalty points, and accompanying ban, not to forget the fine/ costs in addition. Regardless of hows and whys , which may assist you in fine reduction, you got yourself in to this situation, and asked for help, so why not take the help and act accordingly.

You have booked for SD and at that time ask the usher /whomever if the 5 other offences can be heard on the same docket. ( take a copy of each nipmalong with you, assist them to assist you).. Arguing the speeding, may be one your be lucky, but ultimately your inevitability getting a totting ban, so appear to take it with "Grace " and may be "Grace" will be lenient on the financial side.

For my edification as well, if the SD reverts the proceedings back to pleading stage, isn't the £800 fine also revolked, so the OP when bargaining has at that time no outstanding court imposed fine/costs?.

kbo
Only one S 172 "offence", pleading , I never received the S172 in the first place ...as well. What sort of offence is the one that consist in not responding to a police request, when you have never received it ...just from a theoretical aspect.
Say I plea not guilty to this "offence", how far can it go ? can it go to EU court of law, to examine these "offences", from a human right standpoints.
BaggieBoy
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 13:26) *
Say I plea not guilty to this "offence", how far can it go ? can it go to EU court of law, to examine these "offences", from a human right standpoints.

Already happened about 8 years ago, "we" lost.

Edit: Strictly that was about the PACE witness statement, however the principle of a requirement to name yourself has been tested.
andy_foster
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 13:26) *
Only one S 172 "offence", pleading , I never received the S172 in the first place ...as well. What sort of offence is the one that consist in not responding to a police request, when you have never received it ...just from a theoretical aspect.


The law says that it is served when it is delivered to your last known address. The law also says that you must update the address on your V5C when you move.

There is a statutory defence if you can persuade the court on the balance of probabilities that it was not possible, with reasonable diligence, for you to provide the information. Recent case law says that the court can (and invariably will) consider reasonable diligence to apply not from when you received the notice, but to include whether you could or should have taken steps to ensure that any such notices reached you. There is slightly earlier case law that says that reasonable diligence for the other statutory defence (inability to determine who was driving) applies from when the notice is received, and not before. The later case law failed to take this into consideration, and might be bad law - but that would be a big fight.

If, as you originally told us, it was not possible for you to update your V5C due to moving so frequently, then you would seem to have a defence, except that you seem to have subsequently told us that that was a lie

QUOTE
Say I plea not guilty to this "offence", how far can it go ? can it go to EU court of law, to examine these "offences", from a human right standpoints.


The ECJ only deals with EC law, and generally does not touch human rights issues - which are dealt with by the European Court of Human Rights. As the privilege against self incrimination issue was decided against the motorists by a large majority of the Grand Chamber of the ECtHR in O'Halloran and Francis v the UK,
kbo
"except that you seem to have subsequently told us that that was a lie "

I must have been unclear somewhere, but there is no lie here ..I am seeking help/advices, I would be wasting my time (and your valuable one as well)

since oct 2014

1 year + : V5 address
2 weeks : addres A in NI
2-3 months address B in France
5 months address C in Ireland
2 months address B in France
2 weeks address D in UK
3 months address E in UK
5 months address F in UK
3 months address B in france-an other abroad
3 months address G in UK
6 months current address -periode during which I had the nips

One have to note, I lived mainly is rented rooms, following work with very limited visibility as to when I would have to move next, so very cumbersome to change addresses each time not knowing if I would be there when the V5 is returning


kbo
Also, not able to find if it is legal requirement that the camera be visible, as the location where I was spotted speeding, does not have any visible camera
Jlc
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 14:57) *
Also, not able to find if it is legal requirement that the camera be visible, as the location where I was spotted speeding, does not have any visible camera

Nope. They can hide them in horse boxes should they wish. No warning signs required either.
peterguk
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 14:26) *
since oct 2014

1 year + : V5 address
2 weeks : addres A in NI
2-3 months address B in France
5 months address C in Ireland
2 months address B in France
2 weeks address D in UK
3 months address E in UK
5 months address F in UK
3 months address B in france-an other abroad
3 months address G in UK
6 months current address -periode during which I had the nips

One have to note, I lived mainly is rented rooms, following work with very limited visibility as to when I would have to move next, so very cumbersome to change addresses each time not knowing if I would be there when the V5 is returning


Your legal obligation is have an address on your V5C and DL "at which you can be contacted". Suggest you find a reliable friend or relative whose address you can use. Then you'll be complying with the law and won't get problerms like this again.
The Rookie
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 13:49) *
Recent case law says that the court can (and invariably will) consider reasonable diligence to apply not from when you received the notice, but to include whether you could or should have taken steps to ensure that any such notices reached you. There is slightly earlier case law that says that reasonable diligence for the other statutory defence (inability to determine who was driving) applies from when the notice is received, and not before. The later case law failed to take this into consideration, and might be bad law - but that would be a big fight.

I guess there is an argument that the RD starts when it is legally served, even if the person doesn't know its been served (which then creates an effective ongoing RD on that person just in case there is a service) and as such it wouldn't be contradictory.
jewels2009
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 15:53) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 13:49) *
Recent case law says that the court can (and invariably will) consider reasonable diligence to apply not from when you received the notice, but to include whether you could or should have taken steps to ensure that any such notices reached you. There is slightly earlier case law that says that reasonable diligence for the other statutory defence (inability to determine who was driving) applies from when the notice is received, and not before. The later case law failed to take this into consideration, and might be bad law - but that would be a big fight.

I guess there is an argument that the RD starts when it is legally served, even if the person doesn't know its been served (which then creates an effective ongoing RD on that person just in case there is a service) and as such it wouldn't be contradictory.


RD isn't about when LS applies. Two seperate things
.
kbo
What can I expect if a single court hearing is arranged for all my NIPs ?
If I a plead guilty in exchange for drop of first S172. is it likely that I will receive a mathematical fine/points. 3 point for each offence, and 1 quarter, or 1 half of my salary for each ?
How does these grouped offences in a single hearing works like , in financial terms and points
Jlc
If the offences are from different occasions then they'll be sentenced individually, i.e. the relevant points and fine for each. (And then added up)

However, the court costs and surcharge will be considered once.
kbo
Right, so it does not make sense from financial standpoint, to request a court hearing for all of them. Maybe take FPN wherever possible, and minimize NIP presented to a court ?
The Rookie
If you can, yes.

QUOTE (jewels2009 @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 16:05) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 15:53) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 13:49) *
Recent case law says that the court can (and invariably will) consider reasonable diligence to apply not from when you received the notice, but to include whether you could or should have taken steps to ensure that any such notices reached you. There is slightly earlier case law that says that reasonable diligence for the other statutory defence (inability to determine who was driving) applies from when the notice is received, and not before. The later case law failed to take this into consideration, and might be bad law - but that would be a big fight.

I guess there is an argument that the RD starts when it is legally served, even if the person doesn't know its been served (which then creates an effective ongoing RD on that person just in case there is a service) and as such it wouldn't be contradictory.


RD isn't about when LS applies. Two separate things
.

Or you could read what I wrote? Also what does 'when LS applies' mean, LS is an event, it creates no requirement for action of itself.
kbo
Sorry I read, but this paragraph you referring to, is hard to understand, there is acronyms and jargon experts, which is hard for a non-expert to understand. So if you could further explain, would be great
andy_foster
The Rookie was replying to jewels2009 (having their own private argument in your case thread)
thisisntme
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 09:40) *
"He means safety. Presumably, English is his second language, and his first language is one in which safety and security are essentially the same word."

I thought "security", has this definition: security noun: the state of being free from danger or threat. I found this definition perfectly relevant to our context ...Is the forum about grammatical correctness, or as it states "helping motorist to get justice" ? Is my English not good enough for anyone to understand ?

Pleading non guilty, with the hope to find lack of evidences about the speed offences, some might be dropped, is the police absolutely certain and infallible (sorry if not the correct work, just trying my best here). The first offense cost me 800 £, how much higher can it get, if I plea guilty and loose


Security has a different context where German would use sicherheit for safety and security, and similarly in Italian sicurezza. English is different. In English we don't use Road Security in the same way, but most understand what you mean.
kbo
I realized, when trying to see what day it was in the calendar, that some NIPS are so OLD, that I can recall what the purpose of the trip was.

Would it be a possible defense not to name myself, since I have a doubt about NIPs in April and May ? (first one in Jannuary).
thisisntme
QUOTE (kbo @ Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 16:53) *
I realized, when trying to see what day it was in the calendar, that some NIPS are so OLD, that I can recall what the purpose of the trip was.

Would it be a possible defense not to name myself, since I have a doubt about NIPs in April and May ? (first one in Jannuary).


You risk 6 points for each offence. You can't simply say that you don't recall and then the magistrates say "Ah never mind, try and remind better next time". That simply doesn't happen. The only defence is to state with due diligence that you could not identify the driver. You need a lot more than what you have now.
Jlc
It's reasonable diligence upon the service of the request.
andy_foster
QUOTE (kbo @ Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 16:53) *
Would it be a possible defense not to name myself, since I have a doubt about NIPs in April and May ? (first one in Jannuary).


Presumably you are asking if having a doubt about whether or not you were the driver is a defence for failing to name the driver?

You are required by law to name the driver. If you cannot do so, there is a defence if you can persuade the court, on the balance of probabilities, both that you do not know who was driving, and that you could not find out with reasonable diligence (which generally mean showing that you made every reasonable effort to try to find out). You would also be likely to face the issue of not having provided what information you do have within the 28 days. Simply having a doubt will not in itself be a defence.

Not naming yourself as the driver would be a defence to the speeding insofar as they would not be able to prove that you were the driver, but you would be prosecuted for failing to name the driver.
kbo
Thanks guys for the help,

My first speed offence, was re-processed through the Statutory declaration. 6 points (failure to identify driver and 880£ fine turned into 3 point and 185£ fine.
However, I requested the photographic evidence from the police prior to the court hearing, unfortunately I did not get it before hand.
At the court, I was dissuaded to go for an non-guilty plea, I was told the small picture from first hearing, which black and white, is the reason for this very obscure daylight photographic evidence.
yesterday I have surprisingly received the photo requested, and I see a night-like taken photo. Since the offence happened by daylight, I am wondering if I should not seek to re-open this case, and plead non guilty on the basis that the machine might have had an issue at the time
if it can not take a proper photo, it might also have wrong speed readings.
In comparison , the other offences photo are cristal clear, and daylight is evident (trees are visible, road recognizable) ...any expert in that field , can I re-open the case ? claim photo shows something wrong with camera ?
I can post the photo if needed
Jlc
QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 08:37) *
My first speed offence, was re-processed through the Statutory declaration.

It's not clear what the outcome was? Was the s172 dropped?

QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 08:37) *
...if it can not take a proper photo, it might also have wrong speed readings.

Fanciful I'm afraid. The photo is to identify the vehicle and not the driver - there's no reason to believe any speed measurement was wrong. The photo was sufficient to get your registration.

QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 08:37) *
can I re-open the case ?

If you plead guilty to the offence then you can only appeal the sentence.
kbo
1-yes S172 dropped.
2-The camera seems to have a problem taking normal photo, does not put into question its overall reliability ? does it not need to fit specifics law defined standards to be credible ?
3- once you have pleaded guilty you can't not appeal to reverse plea based on new findings ?
Jlc
QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 09:18) *
1-yes S172 dropped.
2-The camera seems to have a problem taking normal photo, does not put into question its overall reliability ? does it not need to fit specifics law defined standards to be credible ?
3- once you have pleaded guilty you can't not appeal to reverse plea based on new findings ?

The whole basis around the 'plea bargain' is that you accept the speeding charge. Given you may not have had a defence against the s172 charge you have to accept the lower charge. (If you wanted to dispute the speed then they may have not dropped the s172)

The quality of the photo has no bearing on the speed measurement.

After pleading guilty there's no normal process to challenge.
kbo
ok, I thought I had a chance for this case , after I read this case


http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/8791...mera_challenge/

no bargain ....they only discussed, my plea ...when I requested to know what would happen to S172 charge, they said it would be dropped (discussing the guilty plea)
peterguk
QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 09:18) *
does it not need to fit specifics law defined standards to be credible ?
3- once you have pleaded guilty you can't not appeal to reverse plea based on new findings ?


The camera will have Home Office approval and is assumed to be working correctly. It is for you to prove that in your case the speed measuremet was incorrect.

If, from the photographs, your car was identified and speed measured, then AFAIK the camera images are acceptable.
Jlc
QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 09:37) *
ok, I thought I had a chance for this case , after I read this case

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/8791...mera_challenge/

no bargain ....they only discussed, my plea ...when I requested to know what would happen to S172 charge, they said it would be dropped (discussing the guilty plea)

That was essentially the 'bargain'. The process is routine but if you didn't want to accept the speeding charge then you would have to defend the s172.

The circumstances in the linked case are quite different. (It is possible they might not have pursued your case had you challenged in the normal cause of events - but is still a long shot and there's still no reason to doubt the speed measurement)
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