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GRogers
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2016
Date of the NIP: - 114 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 116 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A38 Bristol Road between Speedwell Road and Priory Road, Birmingham
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Have use of the vehicle
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I received the NIP on the 21/04/2017 for a speeding offence (38mph in a 30mph zone) on the 26/12/2016. I am not the Registered Keeper of the vehicle, my sister is and has been registered on this vehicle since March 2016. She has never received any notification regarding this offence and has not passed my details to anyone in relation to this NIP.

4 days before I received this NIP, I was stopped by West Midlands Police as it has shown on the there system that the Registered Keeper is a woman. I explained that although she is the RK, I have insured the car and use it daily. They noted all my details and let me on my way without any charges.

This is where it gets interesting. Why was the NIP not sent to the RK within the 14 period, but instead is addressed to me 4 months after the offence, and 3 days after I was pulled over?

There is no issue obviously that they couldn't contact the RK as it is evident from the above that they already have her information. The only way they could have got my details was when they stopped me last week, but this does not prove I was driving the car last December.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 08:41:34 +0000
peterguk
Have you SEEN the V5C?

If yes, is the name and address EXACTLY as it should be?
GRogers
Hi,

Yes I have seen the V5C, it states she is the registered keeper as of March 2016. and address details are correct.
Jlc
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:41) *
...but this does not prove I was driving the car last December.

That is correct but one presumes you have been asked to name the driver under s172?

Regardless of any 'late' NIP defence this requirement remains and must be responded to. (This does not prejudice any other defence you may have)

It's possible your details have been obtained from the MIB (Insurance Database). But the reasons why are not clear at the moment - they may do this if there's an issue obtaining RK details or after further enquiries.
666
There are many possible explanations, e.g. NIP sent to sister but not delivered, NIP discarded as junk mail, sister "mis-remembers" receiving it ...

I suspect they found you from the insurers' database, and the police stop was a coincidence.

Whatever, none of this removes your requirement to respond to the S172 notice naming the driver.




GRogers
But as I mentioned, she has never received a NIP nor has she been asked to name a driver, this NIP addressed to me is the first we have heard of the offence. As West Midlands Police had no idea who was driving the car on the date the offence occurred, it should have gone to the RK. regardless of whether I'm insured on it or not.
notmeatloaf
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:41) *
but this does not prove I was driving the car last December.

Indeed it doesn't but as you now have a S172 request you have to "give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver". This is a less onerous burden than if you are the registered keeper.

It seems there are four possibilities. You may want to consider if it is wise confirming if you are/aren't the driver on a public forum.

If you are the driver return the form promptly and hope that they also promptly offer you a fixed penalty £100/3pts.

If you are the driver return the form at the end of the 28 days you are allowed. Hope that they offer you a fixed penalty as this would take you over the six months that they have to take you to court, so you could ignore the FPN. They cannot take you to court whilst there is an active FPN offer. Of course they are also aware of this six month limit so they may summons you to court instead straight away instead of offering you a FPN. The points will be the same but the fine may be larger unless you can convince them to sentence at FPN, as they have guidelines to do if a FPN cannot be taken up for administrative reasons.

If you aren't the driver name the driver at the end of the 28 days. They will then receive their own S172 request which, if returned at the end of the 28 days will also be outside the six month limit so court proceeding can't be brought and any FPN can be ignored.

If you aren't the driver and don't know who the driver is return the S172 request with a covering letter explaining that you are not the RK and do not have any information to give about the identity of the driver. The police could then potentially prosecute you for S172 but they would have to prove that you had information that you didn't give. As I have said this is a lower bar than that of the RK, who "shall give such information as to the identity of the driver as he may be required to".

Obviously you mustn't name a driver you know to be incorrect as this would be perverting the course of justice and end up with prison time if proved.
andy_foster
Applying Occam's razor, it seems most likely that a marker had been placed on the vehicle due to some issue regarding the RK's details on the PNC.

Unless there was something about the OP driving that car on that occasion which caused the police to run a check on the vehicle, he would not have been stopped merely because the RK is female.
GRogers
Could I not just send a letter along with a copy of the NIP to say that this is outside of the 14 day notification period so is not valid?
Jlc
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:06) *
But as I mentioned, she has never received a NIP nor has she been asked to name a driver, this NIP addressed to me is the first we have heard of the offence. As West Midlands Police had no idea who was driving the car on the date the offence occurred, it should have gone to the RK. regardless of whether I'm insured on it or not.

NMF summarises nicely above. If you have received a s172 request then it must be complied with in its own right and what has happened does change your obligation. If you fail to comply then you are likely to receive 6 points.

Whether the underlying offence can be prosecuted is a separate matter.

QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:12) *
Could I not just send a letter along with a copy of the NIP to say that this is outside of the 14 day notification period so is not valid?

Of course - but if you don't comply with the s172 request you are likely to be prosecuted.
666
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:12) *
Could I not just send a letter along with a copy of the NIP to say that this is outside of the 14 day notification period so is not valid?


No. First, the only NIP to which the 14-day rule applies is the first one, and you don't know whether that was sent to the RK, only that it was not received.

Second, as already advised, the s172 request applies whether or not the NIP is valid.
GRogers
Ok thanks.

So if I fill out the s172 request I assume then I will receive an offer to pay fine and take points or Driver awareness course. So no point in even challenging the 14 Day rule?

Just for the record the reason I was stopped was because, and I Quote "We are having a slow day, and have nothing better to do!"
Jlc
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:30) *
So if I fill out the s172 request I assume then I will receive an offer to pay fine and take points or Driver awareness course. So no point in even challenging the 14 Day rule?

You have to comply with the s172 request as detailed a few times above. The timing of which may be important as detailed in NML's post. You won't get an awareness course offer at this late stage.

They are likely to issue a 3 points £100 fixed penalty offer if this keeps the speeding matter within 6 months (it times out then). Otherwise, they may take the matter to court.

Regardless, naming the driver doesn't remove any options you have to 'challenge' the offence but this would also have to be at court. Without knowing the reason for the 'late' NIP it's hard to say if you have a prospect of success. They may be able to provide sufficient evidence that the 1st NIP was sent in time and the presumption is that it was delivered.
andy_foster
Sections 1 and 2 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 cover the requirement to serve a NIP within 14 days and the exceptions to that requirement. Read them.
If they failed to serve a NIP within the 14 days, and if there is no applicable exception to the requirement, then the failure to serve a NIP would be a defence to the substantive speeding charge.
However, the requirements of s. 1 RTOA 1988 are presumed to have been complied with until the contrary is proven - which can only happen during a trial for the speeding offence, for which they would need evidence that you were the driver. It would not be a defence any failure to provide the driver's details under s. 172 RTA 1988.

By all means send a covering letter with the s. 172 form stating that the NIP is invalid as it is late and no NIP was served on the RK within 14 days or at all, but you still need to name the driver.
Jlc
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:36) *
By all means send a covering letter with the s. 172 form stating that the NIP is invalid as it is late and no NIP was served on the RK within 14 days or at all, but you still need to name the driver.

This.

But their response could be either to simply issue a CoFP ('ignoring your comments'), explaining why they believe they have complied or they are dropping the matter (if they know they haven't complied and are 'trying it on').

Don't bank on the latter possibility though.
GRogers
Thanks all for your advice. Just one other thing. Is there a way of telling from the NIP I have received if this is the first one they have sent ie. ref numbers etc.
AntonyMMM
If you were/are not the registered keeper then it will not be the first NIP to be sent out.

GRogers
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:51) *
If you were/are not the registered keeper then it will not be the first NIP to be sent out.


So if I contact West Midlands Police Central Ticket Office they should be able to tell me if and when any other NIPs have been sent and any if they had any problems serving them to the RK?
Jlc
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:47) *
Is there a way of telling from the NIP I have received if this is the first one they have sent ie. ref numbers etc.

Unfortunately not.
nigelbb
QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:02) *
There are many possible explanations, e.g. NIP sent to sister but not delivered, NIP discarded as junk mail, sister "mis-remembers" receiving it ...

In any of these scenarios were correct why is the sister not being prosecuted for not complying with a s172 request?

Another possibility is that the sister has returned the s172 request naming the OP but doesn't like to admit this or that somebody else in her household has returned the s172 request naming the OP.
southpaw82
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:06) *
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:41) *
but this does not prove I was driving the car last December.

Indeed it doesn't but as you now have a S172 request you have to "give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver". This is a less onerous burden than if you are the registered keeper.

It seems there are four possibilities. You may want to consider if it is wise confirming if you are/aren't the driver on a public forum.

If you are the driver return the form promptly and hope that they also promptly offer you a fixed penalty £100/3pts.

If you are the driver return the form at the end of the 28 days you are allowed. Hope that they offer you a fixed penalty as this would take you over the six months that they have to take you to court, so you could ignore the FPN. They cannot take you to court whilst there is an active FPN offer. Of course they are also aware of this six month limit so they may summons you to court instead straight away instead of offering you a FPN. The points will be the same but the fine may be larger unless you can convince them to sentence at FPN, as they have guidelines to do if a FPN cannot be taken up for administrative reasons.

If you aren't the driver name the driver at the end of the 28 days. They will then receive their own S172 request which, if returned at the end of the 28 days will also be outside the six month limit so court proceeding can't be brought and any FPN can be ignored.

If you aren't the driver and don't know who the driver is return the S172 request with a covering letter explaining that you are not the RK and do not have any information to give about the identity of the driver. The police could then potentially prosecute you for S172 but they would have to prove that you had information that you didn't give. As I have said this is a lower bar than that of the RK, who "shall give such information as to the identity of the driver as he may be required to".

Obviously you mustn't name a driver you know to be incorrect as this would be perverting the course of justice and end up with prison time if proved.

Section 172 doesn't say registered keeper, it says the person keeping the vehicle. If the OP has insured it and uses it daily it's arguable that he is the person keeping the vehicle.
Jlc
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:00) *
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:51) *
If you were/are not the registered keeper then it will not be the first NIP to be sent out.

So if I contact West Midlands Police Central Ticket Office they should be able to tell me if and when any other NIPs have been sent and any if they had any problems serving them to the RK?

They may provide some explanation. Although, if a RK doesn't respond to a NIP/s172 the matter tends to result in a reminder or prosecution for failing to furnish rather than scouring the MIB for possible drivers.
peterguk
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:00) *
So if I contact West Midlands Police Central Ticket Office they should be able to tell me if and when any other NIPs have been sent and any if they had any problems serving them to the RK?


You can call and ask, but they're under no obligation to disclose any evidence until you plead NG in court.
GRogers
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:01) *
QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:02) *
There are many possible explanations, e.g. NIP sent to sister but not delivered, NIP discarded as junk mail, sister "mis-remembers" receiving it ...

In any of these scenarios were correct why is the sister not being prosecuted for not complying with a s172 request?

Another possibility is that the sister has returned the s172 request naming the OP but doesn't like to admit this or that somebody else in her household has returned the s172 request naming the OP.



This is what I was wondering. If she did get a NIP and threw it away as junk or even ignored it, why has she not subsequently received a summons regarding the failure to provide info on the s172. we are talking 4 months after the original offence. well outside the 28 days to return the completed s172.

QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:03) *
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:00) *
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:51) *
If you were/are not the registered keeper then it will not be the first NIP to be sent out.

So if I contact West Midlands Police Central Ticket Office they should be able to tell me if and when any other NIPs have been sent and any if they had any problems serving them to the RK?

They may provide some explanation. Although, if a RK doesn't respond to a NIP/s172 the matter tends to result in a reminder or prosecution for failing to furnish rather than scouring the MIB for possible drivers.



So surely this is proof enough that no NIP has been sent before this one. If one had been sent and subsequent reminders then if for arguments sake she has named me, surely she will still be prosecuted and the NIP I received would be worded accordingly.
andy_foster
Most prosecutions for speeding and/or s.172 are not instigated until a few days before the 6 months are up.
Jlc
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:15) *
So surely this is proof enough that no NIP has been sent before this one. If one had been sent and subsequent reminders then if for arguments sake she has named me, surely she will still be prosecuted and the NIP I received would be worded accordingly.

Alas, her current lack of prosecution doesn't provide proof that the 1st NIP was not sent in time (or at all). (Reminders may not have been sent at all - many Forces send 1 NIP and a lack of response will result in prosecution)

But we're guessing now.
GRogers
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:19) *
Most prosecutions for speeding and/or s.172 are not instigated until a few days before the 6 months are up.


Whats the purpose of leaving it so late? surely by the time you have completed any paperwork the 6 months will be up and cannot be prosecuted.
AntonyMMM
If a registered keeper is shown against the vehicle, then first NIPS do not get sent out after 4 months ... the question is where the first one went and how it was dealt with (or not)

She may still be prosecuted for the s172 offence if it was sent to her and no response was received - plenty of time left for that to happen.
Jlc
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:22) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:19) *
Most prosecutions for speeding and/or s.172 are not instigated until a few days before the 6 months are up.


Whats the purpose of leaving it so late? surely by the time you have completed any paperwork the 6 months will be up and cannot be prosecuted.

As long as the proceedings commence within 6 months then there's no issue. (And s172 offences occur 28 days later than the request remember)
andy_foster
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:22) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:19) *
Most prosecutions for speeding and/or s.172 are not instigated until a few days before the 6 months are up.


Whats the purpose of leaving it so late? surely by the time you have completed any paperwork the 6 months will be up and cannot be prosecuted.


Was it the word "prosecutions" or "instigated" that you are struggling to understand? And don't call me Shirley.
GRogers
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:34) *
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:22) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:19) *
Most prosecutions for speeding and/or s.172 are not instigated until a few days before the 6 months are up.


Whats the purpose of leaving it so late? surely by the time you have completed any paperwork the 6 months will be up and cannot be prosecuted.


Was it the word "prosecutions" or "instigated" that you are struggling to understand? And don't call me Shirley.



To be honest Shirley. this whole thing is a revenue exercise. with the burden of proof resting solely with the defendant to prove if a NIP has been sent or received.
I'm sure if I sent a letter to West Midlands Police they would expect me to send it signed for or recorded so there was no doubt, and the courts would look at this in
there favour if I didn't.

I cannot prove they sent a NIP to the RK, and there is no onus on them to prove they did. So at this stage it looks like I will just be another one of the hundreds a day
getting NIPs issued by this particular Speed Camera.

http://www.itv.com/news/central/2016-09-26...-speed-cameras/

I will break the news to my sister that she MAY be prosecuted for failing to return the s172 that she did not receive!

Think i'll contact a solicitor, and see whats what.
notmeatloaf
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 12:13) *
I'm sure if I sent a letter to West Midlands Police they would expect me to send it signed for or recorded so there was no doubt, and the courts would look at this in
there favour if I didn't.

Actually no, the presumption of service applies both ways. If you post them a first class letter and give credible evidence that you posted it or easier get a free certificate of posting then it is presumed served on them. Their "proof of posting" is a mail room log which is their "credible evidence".

I have used it on the DVLA who try to insist that you need a confirmation letter from them, when actually all you need to do is post the form first class.

QUOTE
I will break the news to my sister that she MAY be prosecuted for failing to return the s172 that she did not receive!

That is only speculation by posters. If she ignored S172s it would be unusual for them to randomly pursue insured drivers as well. Normally it would be her hearing about the S172 prosecution directly. Not that it makes the S172 request they have sent you any less necessary to reply to.

I think it is more likely that the ticket office has messed something up, although rather than getting them to admit it could be difficult. Still, a bemused phone call costs nothing other than time, and they could always drop it out of embarrassment.

QUOTE
Think i'll contact a solicitor, and see whats what.

Probably best to see if you are actually going to be prosecuted first. As outlined above then depending on your next move there is a good chance they cannot or will not prosecute you. It would seem to be overkill to engage a solicitor to fend off, at worst, 3pts and £100-ish fine.

QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 12:13) *
To be honest Shirley. this whole thing is a revenue exercise.

AntonyMMM
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 12:13) *
I cannot prove they sent a NIP to the RK, and there is no onus on them to prove they did.


And you don't have to prove it - why would you ? There most definitely is a requirement for them to prove a NIP was sent - they will have a process in place to log that evidentially. Delivery is deemed to have happened a couple of days later, but you/you sister can give evidence to rebut that presumption. Does she have a history of mail problems, previous complaints to Royal Mail etc. ?
BaggieBoy
Does your sister open all mail, or (as some do) throw away what they think is junk mail unopened?
666
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 11:01) *
QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:02) *
There are many possible explanations, e.g. NIP sent to sister but not delivered, NIP discarded as junk mail, sister "mis-remembers" receiving it ...

In any of these scenarios were correct why is the sister not being prosecuted for not complying with a s172 request?

Another possibility is that the sister has returned the s172 request naming the OP but doesn't like to admit this or that somebody else in her household has returned the s172 request naming the OP.


We don't know that she hasn't been prosecuted. Just that she hasn't told her brother.
Logician
QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 12:13) *
I'm sure if I sent a letter to West Midlands Police they would expect me to send it signed for or recorded so there was no doubt, and the courts would look at this in there favour if I didn't.


At one time courts used to send summons recorded delivery but the intended recipients used to rightly suspect that the long brown envelope contained only bad news, and therefore refused to accept it, even if they were at home at the time. It was then necessary to deliver it by hand, so the whole process was dragged out. No doubt if NIPs were sent out with a signature required the result would be the same.

The overall rate of lost mail is very small, but Royal Mail have a great propensity to lose NIPs, judging by the number of posts on this board.

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