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Full Version: [NIP Wizard] Help with 20mph speeding offence..What can I do??
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mrsheen46
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2017
Date of the NIP: - 10 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 21 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A105 Green Lanes be Queens Drive N/B N4 (2592)
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - This is the first I know of speeding offence and that the area is a 20mph so e. I dont recall any signage nor the flash of a camera. The NIP arrived today 14th February, 11 days after the apparent NIP date?? I've kept the royal mail envelope in the hope that it reveals the delay in some way via a stamped code etc.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No
- Unsure
- Unsure

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:02:10 +0000
BaggieBoy
Suggests the first NIP went somewhere else:

- Just purchased the vehicle/
- Just moved?
- is the address on the V5C correct?
andy_foster
NIP was issued on day 10, and assuming that it was posted that day would have been presumed to have been served on day 14. It is possible that there might have been a previous NIP to a different address, but IMHO unlikely.

@OP - You cannot be convicted of the alleged speeding offence if no warning was given at the time and a NIP was not served on the driver or RK within 14 days of the date of the offence (subject to certain exceptions which appear not to apply here). However, the burden falls on the defence to prove that no NIP was served in time, and s.7 Interpretation Act 1978 creates a rebuttable presumption that a notice sent by first class post is served (delivered) 2 working days after posting - if the sender can prove that it was properly posted.

Basically, you would need to persuade the court (on the balance of probabilities) that the notice was delivered late. Do you have any witnesses to the late delivery, or any evidence of ongoing issues with post arriving late?

N.B. A late NIP does not negate the requirement to name the driver.
ohnoes
This is the camera you were snapped by:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5612863,-...#33;6m1!1e1

It used to be an old gatso that wasn't on, so the camera at this location wasn't enforcing the 20mph for a long time.

It looks like it was upgraded in the streetview so thats may be what has caught you out.

What was your alleged speed?
stamfordman
QUOTE (ohnoes @ Tue, 14 Feb 2017 - 16:06) *
This is the camera you were snapped by:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5612863,-...#33;6m1!1e1

It used to be an old gatso that wasn't on, so the camera at this location wasn't enforcing the 20mph for a long time.

It looks like it was upgraded in the streetview so thats may be what has caught you out.

What was your alleged speed?


Indeed - this has been upgraded like quite a few in the area recently. I don't think I've ever seen anyone flashed by one yet - I think they are set for quite a high tolerance but I may be wrong.
mrsheen46
Hi guys and thanks for the I put so far. I was clocked at 31 mph in what is a recently changed 20 mph zone. I've kept the envelope which has an orange code stamped do on it which I presume might contain some postal I do or details as to its receipt or postal date. Does anyone know if this can be decoded? I had changed my car but details on v5 pre-date speeding offence so can't be that I doubt. I have 4 brothers and we all look similar, what happens if I do the remember which of us was using the car?

On the same day that the Nip arrived I so got a si.ilar first class letter from the council regarding council tax bill, this was received 2 days after my contact with them which is more representative of first class postage delivery times. I took pics of this and the Nail on the day I received them.
peterguk
QUOTE (mrsheen46 @ Sat, 25 Feb 2017 - 00:44) *
I was clocked at 31 mph


When did you realise you didn't know who was driving?

QUOTE (mrsheen46 @ Sat, 25 Feb 2017 - 00:44) *
I have 4 brothers and we all look similar, what happens if I do the remember which of us was using the car?


So all 4 brothers are insured to drive the car?

And all 4 brothers could have been driving the car?

Messing about with the S.172 will see you heading for a summons for FtF. 6 points and hefty fine.

As already advised, the S.172 must be completed and returned within 28 days of service (which until proven to the contrary, is 2 days following posting) regardless of whether the NIP was served late.

So get the S.172 sorted first. Worry about orange postmarks later.
Fredd
The orange barcode is Royal Mail-applied routing information (in a proprietary format, unhelpfully). It does contain timing information, but only relating to when it was applied, on receipt of the item from the customer.
Jlc
Worth checking the documentation reference date at the bottom of page 2 on the v5 - this date is when the DVLA updated their records and queries prior to this date will return the previous details. But the s172 nomination is key as you may grab defeat from the jaws of victory if it was a late NIP (but is still hard to prove sometimes).
facade
QUOTE (Fredd @ Sat, 25 Feb 2017 - 09:23) *
The orange barcode is Royal Mail-applied routing information (in a proprietary format, unhelpfully). It does contain timing information, but only relating to when it was applied, on receipt of the item from the customer.



Which will prove when the Post Office first handled it, if this is actually 2 days before the OP received it then it is definitely out of time.

As stated, the S172 must be responded to within the time limit on the NIP though.
mrsheen46

I bought car 30/11/16
V5 doc ref date is 10/01/17
Offence date 24/01/17
Apparent NIP date 03/02/17
Received by me 14/02/17

I have a witness to receipt of letters on 14/02/17
I wonder if I take the letter to the post office if they can decode the orange barcode.

In the s172 do I have to respond now as to who was driving?
Should I return it recorded delivery alongside the RAC template letter from the site?


peterguk
QUOTE (mrsheen46 @ Sat, 25 Feb 2017 - 13:26) *
In the s172 do I have to respond now as to who was driving?
Should I return it recorded delivery alongside the RAC template letter from the site?


You obviously missed my post above rolleyes.gif

The S.172 must be completed and returned within 28 days of service (which until proven to the contrary, is 2 days following posting) regardless of whether the NIP was served late.

You can send it 1st class with proof of posting, or Recorded Delivery. Your choice.

You have a witness to receipt of the envelope from the postman, and the opening of the envelope revealing the NIP inside? If so, that may help. FYI, i had my postman as witness, during a national postal strike (i.e. good reason for delay) and was still found guilty in Mags. Court
AntonyMMM
Yes the s172 request is still valid and not responding to that is a more serious offence.

You can tell them that the NIP was received out of time, but don't expect that will stop the case - they may still offer you a course or FPN, but may just go straight to summons. In any case you will almost certainly have to convince a court of the late delivery ( with your witness attending to give evidence).

You need to consider the risk of losing which will cost you a significant amount in court costs.
Jlc
QUOTE (mrsheen46 @ Sat, 25 Feb 2017 - 13:26) *
Apparent NIP date 03/02/17
Received by me 14/02/17

I have a witness to receipt of letters on 14/02/17

Ok, you have to rebut the presumption that the letter didn't arrive in time - the NIP date (and will be the claimed posting date) gives plenty of time for it to arrive within 14 days.

When you say 'receipt' - what does that mean exactly?
southpaw82
QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 25 Feb 2017 - 16:10) *
When you say 'receipt' - what does that mean exactly?

Indeed. Do you mean it was delivered to your address 21 days after the alleged offence or you opened it 21 days after?
mrsheen46
It was delivered 21 days after the offence. At the same time a letter with council tax bill was delivered in a similar format, which was 2 days after I had spoken to them about my council tax bill. This shows the correct speed of first class post. 2 days not 21??
peterguk
Odd that the NIP has gone into temporary storage during it's delivery to you.

Have you any documented issues with your post?

What EXACTLY can your witness testify to in terms if the NIP's delivery?
Jlc
If you (or whoever is named as driver) can convince the bench then there appears to be the makings of a defence - but worth seeing what the force says as perhaps it was a reminder.
mrsheen46
I'm going to take both the speeding NIP and the council tax letters to the post office to see if they can decode the orange bar information on the front. the NIP doesn't look like a reminder and it genuinely arrived on the dates specified alongside the council tax letter. It's the day that I started to take some pics of the NIP and envelope and make inquiries i.e. this site.

I also have a friend who's uncle works at the post office - maybe he can shed some light on the orange bar.

I am going to send the s.172 back today as it needs to be received by Friday. I will attach a letter to the tune of the RAC one stating that it did not arrive within the 14 days and see what the police have to say.
Jlc
QUOTE (mrsheen46 @ Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 10:47) *
...it did not arrive within the 14 days and see what the police have to say.

A bemused phonecall first might be an idea.

QUOTE (mrsheen46 @ Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 10:47) *
the NIP doesn't look like a reminder and it genuinely arrived on the dates specified alongside the council tax letter. It's the day that I started to take some pics of the NIP and envelope and make inquiries i.e. this site.

Reminders aren't always marked as such - but usually are. We believe you but it's very unusual circumstances to arrive so late.
The Rookie
Many reminders 'don't look like a reminder' unfortunately!
BertB
Why would they send a reminder 21 days after the offence date, and 11 days after the NIP issue date?
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