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robbo28
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2016
Date of the NIP: - 34 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 36 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Kingsway west @ Charlotte Street, Dundee
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Company Van, Leased from another company
How many current points do you have? - 8
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Came home from work to find the 'requirement to identify the driver letter'.

I opened it to find it says my work van was caught driving at 53 in a 40 by a mobile camera van (the location is a couple hundred meters after the dual carriageway goes from 50mph to 40mph) but it was over a month ago and I can't remember ever seeing a camera van there but it probably was right as I drive that road a lot. I guess the delay in getting it to me was going through the hire company and then my own company.

It was only after I opened the letter that I realised that they had got my surname completely wrong, like a completely different surname. I must have just clocked the forename address and opened it up. So surely I should never have opened it as this person doesn't exist at the address although there is someone with the same forename?

Would I have been within my rights to throw it in the bin as it was not addressed to me? Or mark 'not at this address' and return to sender?

Would delaying things this way be of any benefit to me considering that the mistake could just have been my company giving the wrong surname by accident?



NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Do nothing!

    The police are not requesting the information from you, they are requesting it from the person the NIP is addressed to.
    Wait until you receive a NIP addressed to you personally, then come back here.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 19:24:55 +0000
MB69
I am not sure how it works in Scotland and if the return unsigned is still a valid option?

As regards to name, it is not the police who have got it wrong. it is your company who has named the driver wrong.

NIP > Hire Company : Hire Company have given your companie's name
NIP > Your company : Your company has given them your name. But by the looks of things, they haven't spelled your name right, which is odd if you work for them and not a contractor.
NIP > to you : there is an option if your name is spelled correctly. You should tick 'No' and then complete your details properly. However whether you should sign or not, hopefully someone else will advise.

andy_foster
QUOTE (MB69 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 19:35) *
As regards to name, it is not the police who have got it wrong. it is your company who has named the driver wrong.


Once again I am amazed at the ability of some posters to conclusively determine the facts of a case despite having insufficient information to do so.
Kickaha
QUOTE (MB69 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 19:35) *
..............
As regards to name, it is not the police who have got it wrong. it is your company who has named the driver wrong.
..........

Is there any reason you are so sure of this? It could be a copy and paste type error by the police.

AF being quicker than me (nothing new there).
robbo28
QUOTE (MB69 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 19:35) *
I am not sure how it works in Scotland and if the return unsigned is still a valid option?

As regards to name, it is not the police who have got it wrong. it is your company who has named the driver wrong.

NIP > Hire Company : Hire Company have given your companie's name
NIP > Your company : Your company has given them your name. But by the looks of things, they haven't spelled your name right, which is odd if you work for them and not a contractor.
NIP > to you : there is an option if your name is spelled correctly. You should tick 'No' and then complete your details properly. However whether you should sign or not, hopefully someone else will advise.



The name isn't just spelled wrong. It is completely different.

Let's say my name is David Jones, the letter was addressed to David Smith

If I had noticed it before I ripped open the envelope to find it really is for me, I may have just binned it or put in a post box with "not at this address" written on it.
MB69
ok, it could be the police, it could be his company , Potatoe, potaato. What diff does it make?

He asked if this makes his NIP null and void: answer is no! Unless they have got it completely wrong. for instance Andy Foster is the same as Andy Farter but not the same as Drew Barrymore!

If you lived in England and had a speeding ticket in Scotland, I would have said send back and don't sign. But as you live in Scotland and the offence was in Scotland, someone with better knowledge on that side of things will give you a better advise instead of going on a rant.

southpaw82
The temptation may be to return it and hope they proceed to prosecute you for speeding. As the s 172 notice isn't addressed to you (that's a reasonably safe bet) it's not admissible under s 12 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 so they shouldn't be able to use it to identify the driver. The risk is they find some other way to prove you were driving (and I've no idea what those might be in Scotland).
MB69
QUOTE (robbo28 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 19:44) *
QUOTE (MB69 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 19:35) *
I am not sure how it works in Scotland and if the return unsigned is still a valid option?

As regards to name, it is not the police who have got it wrong. it is your company who has named the driver wrong.

NIP > Hire Company : Hire Company have given your companie's name
NIP > Your company : Your company has given them your name. But by the looks of things, they haven't spelled your name right, which is odd if you work for them and not a contractor.
NIP > to you : there is an option if your name is spelled correctly. You should tick 'No' and then complete your details properly. However whether you should sign or not, hopefully someone else will advise.



The name isn't just spelled wrong. It is completely different.

Let's say my name is David Jones, the letter was addressed to David Smith

If I had noticed it before I ripped open the envelope to find it really is for me, I may have just binned it or put in a post box with "not at this address" written on it.


ok, here is the thing:

Are you employed by the company or are you self employed?
Ask your company if they have sent the NIP with wrong name on it? Hopefully your company admin has the details.

Again I don't know how it works in Scotland, but in England and with the mags here, if the name resembles anything similar to your name, then you are doomed.

how long before someone has a go at me again!

Gan
For all you know, your company has named David Smith but provided the wrong address

You appear to have two options

1 Do absolutely nothing but keep the letter safe
2 Return it "Not at this address"

I would personally go for #1
#2 gives them a reason to go back to your employer and they can correct their error

#1 has the possibility that by the time they discover the mistake, it's too late to prosecute
robbo28
Cheers for the prompt responses.

I have already filled out the form and put in and envelope ready to post but thought I'd get some advice first.

I'm on 8 points just now (63 in a 40 on 2 occasions) and can't afford to get banned as I need to drive for my job. This makes me thing I should just take the 3 points and fine (assuming this is all I could get for 53 in a 40?) and make sure to take it easy on the roads as I'll have 11 points for another 18 months
southpaw82
QUOTE (MB69 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 19:51) *
how long before someone has a go at me again!

I find that the less you post erroneous advice the less people correct you have a go at you.
robbo28
QUOTE (Gan @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 19:51) *
For all you know, your company has named David Smith but provided the wrong address

You appear to have two options

1 Do absolutely nothing but keep the letter safe
2 Return it "Not at this address"

I would personally go for #1
#2 gives them a reason to go back to your employer and they can correct their error

#1 has the possibility that by the time they discover the mistake, it's too late to prosecute



How long would it have to be before it was too late to prosecute? I thought they had all the time in the world if they sent it to the hire company within 14 days?

QUOTE (MB69 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 19:51) *
QUOTE (robbo28 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 19:44) *
QUOTE (MB69 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 19:35) *
I am not sure how it works in Scotland and if the return unsigned is still a valid option?

As regards to name, it is not the police who have got it wrong. it is your company who has named the driver wrong.

NIP > Hire Company : Hire Company have given your companie's name
NIP > Your company : Your company has given them your name. But by the looks of things, they haven't spelled your name right, which is odd if you work for them and not a contractor.
NIP > to you : there is an option if your name is spelled correctly. You should tick 'No' and then complete your details properly. However whether you should sign or not, hopefully someone else will advise.



The name isn't just spelled wrong. It is completely different.

Let's say my name is David Jones, the letter was addressed to David Smith

If I had noticed it before I ripped open the envelope to find it really is for me, I may have just binned it or put in a post box with "not at this address" written on it.


ok, here is the thing:

Are you employed by the company or are you self employed?
Ask your company if they have sent the NIP with wrong name on it? Hopefully your company admin has the details.

Again I don't know how it works in Scotland, but in England and with the mags here, if the name resembles anything similar to your name, then you are doomed.

how long before someone has a go at me again!



I'm directly imployed by the company which makes it strange the have managed to put a totally different surname
southpaw82
Six months.
andy_foster
QUOTE (robbo28 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 19:24) *
It was only after I opened the letter that I realised that they had got my surname completely wrong, like a completely different surname. I must have just clocked the forename address and opened it up. So surely I should never have opened it as this person doesn't exist at the address although there is someone with the same forename?

Would I have been within my rights to throw it in the bin as it was not addressed to me? Or mark 'not at this address' and return to sender?

Would delaying things this way be of any benefit to me considering that the mistake could just have been my company giving the wrong surname by accident?


On the face of it, there is no reason why you shouldn't have opened the notice once it had been delivered to your address.

The general consensus is that when there is a minor misspelling of a name, it does not negate service if the misspelling does not confuse or mislead the recipient. However, If it has a completely different surname, I would say that there can be no presumption of service and there was no actual service even if the notice was actually intended for you.

There is no legal time limit for serving an s. 172 requirement, but there is a practical time limit of about 5 months from the date of the substantive offence in order for them to instigate proceedings within the 6 month limit.

If you do nothing, it is likely that unless diligence is performed before instigating proceedings, proceedings would be instigated against the non-existent person the notice was addressed to. This would likely to be at around the 6 month mark, making it too late to do anything once you advise them that no such person lives at that address.

Any s. 172 offence would be committed at the expiration of 27 days after the date of service of the notice - if your company provided the wrong details, the police would have up to 6 months from the expiration of the 27 days after the date of service of the notice to your company to instigate proceedings against them - which should allow for a fairly wide window for pointing out the fact that the person does not exist before things get complicated, without dropping your company in it - if indeed they were the ones at fault.

If you return the notice "not known at this address", it is likely that the police would contact the previous link in the chain (presumably your company) who would almost certainly correct their mistake.

MB69
Do they not do SACs in scotland? Or is it that you have done one in the past?

That speed , 53 in a 40, is a CoFP speed so it is 3pts unless you go to court?

As you are on 8pts, I would probably return it promptly. If you had no points, then you could experiment. But it is really up to you and how desperate you need your licence really. If you can go to work on public transport for 6 months and it is not gonna cause you too much problem , then hey why not.
Jlc
QUOTE (MB69 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 20:02) *
Do they not do SACs in scotland?

Nae.

QUOTE (MB69 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 20:02) *
That speed , 53 in a 40, is a CoFP speed so it is 3pts unless you go to court?

South of the border, at court, that would be 4 points. In Scotland it's slightly different as they do discount points for guilty pleas - but there's still a small risk of 4 points and becoming a totter. There's no reason why a CoFP wouldn't be offered (subject to the driver name being cleared up).
robbo28
QUOTE (MB69 @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 20:02) *
Do they not do SACs in scotland? Or is it that you have done one in the past?

That speed , 53 in a 40, is a CoFP speed so it is 3pts unless you go to court?

As you are on 8pts, I would probably return it promptly. If you had no points, then you could experiment. But it is really up to you and how desperate you need your licence really. If you can go to work on public transport for 6 months and it is not gonna cause you too much problem , then hey why not.



I think you've hit the nail on the head here.

I'm pretty sure now that if I was to ignore this then the time taken to carry out proceedings against this person that does not exist and find out the error would probably take this over the practical time limit. What could also help is the fact that I am moving out of my current address (a friends house) in a couple weeks and there is a chance I may not be with the same employer in 5/6 months time.

But I don't think I can take the risk with it as I need to drive between sites for my work.

Possibly would've chanced my luck had I not had so many points
MB69
One thing to note :

Before camera partnership sends files to CPS for non compliance, they do diligence checks as mentioned by AF. And you will be surprised at the checks that they do. i have sat in court where the person had given a ficticous name for a NIP and was protesting that they had given the right name. The partnership provided the checks they had done to confirm if such a person did actually ever lived at the address or not, these where electoral registers, council tax registers, utility searches, driving licences checks and ...

My advise is if your name looks similar then you need to be careful as you are on 8 pts.

but if it is completely different then you might have a defence that you were never served the NIP

I have seen cases where people think because there is a mistake in the car registration number and instead of BM12ABC it reads BN12ABC, then they have a defence. Small errors like this can be easily corrected at the hearing there and then without any problems specially at the magistrates courts!
sgtdixie
I think Andy has most accuratey summarised the issue. If the surname is completely different i do not believe you could be convicted of s172. The reason is that the prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant was requested to supply the information.

A correct forename with a variation of the correct surname may well convince a court that the recipient knew they were the subject of the request. But a completely different surename cannot in my opinion Constitute either lawful service nor a lawful request.

If it was me I would ignore the notice and take good care of it should a citation somehow arrive.
The Rookie
I'm with the good sarge on this, I'd be minded to ignore the S172 request until such a time as any citation arrives when (as you'll still have access to mail it would seem) it can be sent back to the courts as 'not know at this address', with only a fictitious person to prosecute, even if they did there would be no points coming your way as you wouldn't be the accused.

You appear to have received a get out of jail free card from the community chest, I'd use it!
Kickaha
To add to the above, I would also advise that you do not rock the boat, so do not try to find out why the name is wrong by either asking your employer or the police. If you do someone may notice the mistake and get the NIP corrected in time.
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