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Full Version: PCN for Failing to Comply with a No Entry Restriction (Code 51)
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Harrysmith
I received a PCN for code 51 when turning right into Surbiton Crescent from Surbiton Road. It was 17.45pm and therefore very dark. I've gathered the following but I am not sure which of it is relevant. I'd really appreciate any pointers as to the best way of appealing.

CCTV video and stills
The CCTV stills the council sent show my car entering Surbiton Crescent. They only show the rear of any no entry signs. Therefore, it does not directly show that my car passed a clearly visible sign as you cannot see the face of the sign I am meant to have failed to comply with. It was dark so shouldn't they need to show the sign was visible to me to prove I failed to comply with it?

No entry signage:
I have since been back to look at the signage and taken photographs. There are two standard no entry signs with a plate underneath.

One sign is located on the central reservation of Surbiton Crescent. This sign is ambiguous as you could take it to mean no entry to the other side of the road.

The other is located on the left but angled towards traffic travelling the other way along Surbiton Road. This sign is not visible to the driver turning right from Surbiton Road due to the angles involved.

Neither sign is illuminated, only reflectorised. Of course, for a reflectorised sign to be visible, it needs to have something reflecting on it - like headlights. If it is parallel to you, it would not be lit up by your headlights until you turned.

I understand that the new traffic sign regulations (2016) state that you don't now need to illuminate no entry signs in these circumstances and you don't need to have one sign either side of the road but the rules still state the signs should be clear and specifically:

"Drivers should not be placed in the situation where they might not see the sign before starting to turn at a road junction."

No right turn signs
There are 2 "No right turn" signs. The first is located on the left side of Surbiton Road before the junction and was obscured by a van on the day I returned to take photos. There are shops and parking bays on the left and the bays are usually occupied with cars / loading vans etc. The second sign is also on the left side of Surbiton Road and directly opposite the entrance of Surbiton Crescent. It is located directly in front of another sign and with a speed limit as well, making a confusing mix of 4 signs to take in within a second or 2.

CCTV Signage
There is a small square plate indicating CCTV is in use which you can see once you have turned into Surbiton Crescent, but it is directly next to a 20 mph speed sign. It would be reasonable to assume that the CCTV was enforcing the speed limit therefore rather than no entry restriction.
stamfordman
Post the PCN, pics and a street view of the location.
Harrysmith
Thank you. I have added the PCN and the photos showing the street with signs. Please let me know if anything is not clear or you need more info. Click to view attachment
Mad Mick V
Have a look at this thread it might suggest other grounds of appeal:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=110387

Mick
Harrysmith
Thanks, Mick. I read the thread and picked up some pointers but mainly that discussion is about travelling the other way along Surbiton Crescent and the signs there are a bit different. Looks like this has caught out a lot of people dry.gif

Do you know if the CCTV footage / stills need to show the car passing a clearly visible sign for a code 51 ? My footage only shows the back of the sign post. It was dark and the sign isn't lit because it is just inside the start of a 20mph zone.

Mad Mick V
QUOTE (Harrysmith @ Wed, 11 Jan 2017 - 09:26) *
Thanks, Mick. I read the thread and picked up some pointers but mainly that discussion is about travelling the other way along Surbiton Crescent and the signs there are a bit different. Looks like this has caught out a lot of people dry.gif

Do you know if the CCTV footage / stills need to show the car passing a clearly visible sign for a code 51 ? My footage only shows the back of the sign post. It was dark and the sign isn't lit because it is just inside the start of a 20mph zone.


Depends on the adjudicator but the Council has to adduce evidence which proves the contravention. If the camera position shows the back of the signpost the Council usually produce stills of the sign itself. Some adjudicators uphold the contravention on stills, others indicate stock photos, which are undated, are worthless and thereby the contravention is not proved. Luck of the draw I am afraid.

Whether the sign needs illumination or can just be the reflectorised type needs checking out from here:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/contents/made

We've seen in the Newcastle, John Dobson Street case that these new Regs allow Councils greater freedom to illuminate or not.

Mick
DJ Lexy
QUOTE (Harrysmith @ Wed, 11 Jan 2017 - 09:26) *
that discussion is about travelling the other way along Surbiton Crescent and the signs there are a bit different


Yes. Entry from Surbiton Road is "buses and cycles only", and entry from the other end is "buses, taxis, cycles and access".

Sadly, Google Street View doesn't show the restriction signs and all the photos of the restriction I can find online are the other end, so I can't give you any more useful information about signs and compliance.

Edit: I've just seen your attached PDF above. I thought there was some sort of rule against using No Entry signs with exceptions, and that the 'No motor vehicles' sign should be used instead. But the latest TSRGD says it is allowed. I don't know if I was thinking about time restrictions rather than vehicle restrictions, or if I'm just going mad.

Second Edit: Part 4, Paragraph 4 applies to this sign. The No Entry signs are within 50 metres of a street light, since there's one in the photo just behind it on the left. It's not on a self-righting bollard (the 'keep left' sign in front of it is). Under normal circumstances, those no entry signs [i]must[i] be lit during the hours of darkness, as long as the street lights are lit. However, these lighting requirements are only for roads where the speed limit is "greater than 20mph". We could argue about the semantics of whether that includes 20mph since 20 isn't greater than 20, but it looks like a 20 zone starts right before that junction. Which, unfortunately for you, means those signs don't need to be lit.
Harrysmith
Thanks, Mick and DJ Lexy.

Like you say, the council has more freedom now to decide not to directly light these signs and it looks like it doesn't need to be lit as it is at the start of the 20mph area.

Hippocrates
QUOTE (Harrysmith @ Wed, 11 Jan 2017 - 17:52) *
Thanks, Mick and DJ Lexy.

Like you say, the council has more freedom now to decide not to directly light these signs and it looks like it doesn't need to be lit as it is at the start of the 20mph area.

Actually, the two no turn right signs are in a 30 mph zone. Signage proves this if you revisit Surbiton Crescent and Surbiton Road.* The first one's position is rather otiose. The last no right hand sign is part of a cluttered post of signs. PM to follow privately when I have time.

I believe RBK have been summoned to the Tribunal on the 27th. Other issues re the PCN, too, and automatic issue of PCNs to be determined shortly.

*At the junction of Surbiton Crescent and Surbiton Road it is clearly signed with a 30 plate (back of 20 plate). Crossing the road, you will find another 30 plate attached to the same, said post(as above) with cluttered, other signs on it. RBK, of course, in their infallible wisdom, will deny this. Take photos, as well as the angle of the two no entry signs. As already stated, the combination of no entry and other signs is now legal. No Dft authorisation is necessary.
Harrysmith
Thanks, Hippocrates! Will take more photos and look forward to the PM. Thank you.
Hippocrates
QUOTE (Harrysmith @ Thu, 12 Jan 2017 - 07:36) *
Thanks, Hippocrates! Will take more photos and look forward to the PM. Thank you.

I will get back to you this evening with more details.
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