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c1223

Thu, 29 Dec 2016 - 15:05

I've received an invoice from UK Car Park Management. They state the car was "park[ed] on access roads / roadways". Quite simply, the driver arrived at work and had to move one of the work vans out of the space so that they could put the car there. They left the car in front of the van space (which can be accessed from front and back) to move the van. The car is not parked on any lines and there are no road markings. The photos seem to be taken by someone who works at the car dealership opposite. The timestamps on the photos are 30 seconds apart. Obviously this is a completely ridiculous ticket, as there is no where else for them to put the car in the 2 minutes it took them to do the rearrange.

From what I've read, IPC can be a bit sticky to deal with and seem to usually side with the PPC. They won't be in work until January, but they will try get pictures of the signage when they can. Until then, can anyone help with formulating an appeal? Is there a requirement for the car to be observed for longer than 30 seconds? Surely 30 seconds is not proof that they are parked? I notice that in "The Independent Parking Committee - Code of Practice" under Part B, 15.1 it states:

QUOTE

Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.

How long is that grace period? I know the BPA has 10 minutes, but not sure about IPC.

They will try and speak to the boss at work and see if they can speak to their landlord, although I think it is highly unlikely the boss will have the time to help!

Thanks!

cabbyman

Thu, 29 Dec 2016 - 15:07

Edit your post so that the driver's identity can't be inferred.

Can you show a Google Street View of the area. That could give a lot of appeal points.

c1223

Thu, 29 Dec 2016 - 15:41

Managed to get a picture of the sign:

The car was parked where the red line is. There is no double yellow line there. It's in front of the red and silver car in the street view.

cabbyman

Thu, 29 Dec 2016 - 17:36

Dear sirs,

ref xxxxx

I am in receipt of your above invoice and write as registered keeper. The driver's identity cannot be inferred nor will I be releasing it to you.

Having now visited the site in question, your signs, being forbidding in nature, are incapable of forming a contract. It therefore follows that any action against a driver must be by the land occupier in the tort of trespass. As registered keeper, I cannot be held liable and you should contact the driver.

Please note that I will not engage in the charade that is the IPC, which as you will be aware is nothing more than a body set up to reject 80% of appeals regardless of merit.

Now that you have been appraised of the above, you are required to cease processing my personal information forthwith. Further use of my personal information will result in a claim for breach of the Data Protection Act and compensation claimed in the sum of £750.

Love and kisses.

Wait and see if others have some comments/amendments.

c1223

Sun, 1 Jan 2017 - 19:52

Thanks for the reply. I'll do some searching about the sign being forbidding in nature!

SchoolRunMum

Sun, 1 Jan 2017 - 22:52

PCM is not the same parking firm but this explains it:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/20...e-contract.html

HTH

c1223

Tue, 3 Jan 2017 - 15:20

I've just noticed another potential point that could help. The exact days are changed, but the time period between them is the same:

The incident date was 8/11/2016. The issue date was 12/12/2016.

As no notice to driver was served, does that mean that the PPC have failed to meet the keeper liability requirements as stated in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012?

Edit: not serving the notice within 14 days

ostell

Tue, 3 Jan 2017 - 15:32

If there was no ticket on the windscreen then they have 14 days for the ticket to be received by the registered keeper. If there was a ticket on the windscreen then the relevant times are receipt between days 28 and 56 following the incident.

So if there was no windscreen ticket then no keeper liability and they have to claim off the driver, who they don't know, and you are not required to tell them.

c1223

Tue, 3 Jan 2017 - 16:50

No windscreen ticket. From what it looks like, the evidence was provided by one of the other units on the estate, who presumably report offenders to the PPC. It seems the evidence wasn't sent over quick enough.

c1223

Tue, 3 Jan 2017 - 18:12

Actually I've just realised. I think the car is registered in the leasing companies' name. The paperwork actually says "we have received your details following a transfer of liability naming you as the driver of the vehicle".

How does this work? I wasn't actually the driver at that particular moment in time.

The lease is personal contract hire.

ostell

Tue, 3 Jan 2017 - 19:58

You are the keeper at the time, just not the registered keeper. Unfortunately the 14 days do not apply.

However, they do have to comply with another section POFA. With your NTK did you get the required paperwork that should have been supplied to the PPC by the lease company and forwarded to you?

c1223

Tue, 3 Jan 2017 - 20:15

I received only a single page which looks exactly like a notice to keeper.

ostell

Tue, 3 Jan 2017 - 20:34

Whoops!! They have missed out the documents specified in POFA 13 (2) and thus have failed to comply with the requirement to hold the keeper liable.

Write to them, as the keeper, stating that you were not driving and as they have failed to meet the requirements of POFA so leave you alone and take it up with the driver.

c1223

Tue, 3 Jan 2017 - 20:49

Is the actual relevant part stated in POFA 14 (2)(a)?

ostell

Tue, 3 Jan 2017 - 21:15

Sorry, yes but you get the idea. No keeper/ hirer liability

emanresu

Wed, 4 Jan 2017 - 07:51

QUOTE

Write to them, as the keeper, stating that you were not driving and as they have failed to meet the requirements of POFA so leave you alone and take it up with the driver.

Instead of "leave you alone" change the wording to "cease processing my personal details as doing so is a breach of the DPA which may leave UKCPM liable for a claim for misuse"

c1223

Wed, 4 Jan 2017 - 12:45

Am I right in thinking it should be a notice to hirer? I'm not sure whether the lease company just nominated me as a driver or not... Does that make a difference? It's contract hire.

Is there anything I should add:

ostell

Wed, 4 Jan 2017 - 15:01

You are not the registered keeper, that's the lease company, you are the keeper and you were not driving at the time of the alleged incident.

I would not do their work for them. I would point out that they have failed on several counts to comply with the strict requirements of POFA 2012 schedule 4 to hold you, the keeper liable. They could just get a compliant NTK out to you within the time limit.

You are not appealing, you are rejecting the invoice as the invoice should correctly be addressed to the driver at the time.

Wait for other comments

c1223

Thu, 5 Jan 2017 - 10:06

OK thanks. So is my best bet to send it special delivery on the 20th day?

Jlc

Thu, 5 Jan 2017 - 10:12

Special costs an arm and a leg. 1st class with (free) proof of posting.

c1223

Tue, 31 Jan 2017 - 00:15

Told them I was "rejecting their invoice" as they didn't compile with PoFA and that further communication would be breach of DPA. They've sent me back a letter saying they acknowledge my appeal but don't accept and offer me to use the IAS...

What's the next step here? Do I need to get a letter from a solicitor telling them they're liable for harassment if they continue communication?

nosferatu1001

Tue, 31 Jan 2017 - 12:55

No, no need
You send them a Letter before claim, giving them 14 days to pay damages for continuing to proces your data without any cause.

c1223

Fri, 7 Apr 2017 - 16:38

Received a letter from Debt Recovery Plus Ltd asking for the obvious... How do I proceed? As we sussed, the PPC weren't compliant with the PoFA and I told them further processing of my personal data was against the DPA. What is the next step from me? Or is it just file the letter and carry on?

Lynnzer

Sat, 8 Apr 2017 - 10:29

QUOTE (c1223 @ Fri, 7 Apr 2017 - 17:38)

This

Send direct to UKCPS:
Ref PCN *******
I'm in receipt of a debt election letter from Debt Recovery Plus, despite my informing you of my non acceptance of the invoice you presented me with.

Let it be known that this is a matter of some aggravation that will serve to add to my claim for a breach of the Data Protection Act for the unreasonable use of my personal details.

You have completely failed in your efforts to invoke keeper liability as the compliance to PoFA is unfulfilled. The vehicle was on hire and the information you sent in respect of this PCN is insufficient. You have not sent either a copy of the hire agreement, or a notification from the hire company of my acceptance to make payment for such invoices.

Quite apart from that, the details given to you by the hire company only pass on the fact that it was myself who hired the vehicle and there can be no presumption that places me as the actual driver. I was not.

Your own buffoonish attempt at the Notice to Hirer says on one hand that the driver is responsible for the payment of the PCN but you do not have details of his or her identity, and then reminds me that if payment remains unpaid you will demand payment from the driver.

I was not the driver. I was the hirer, and as you have stated you do not know the identity of the driver or a service address you have no reasonable cause to continue your claim against myself, especially since the actual hirer cannot be held responsible unless there is evidence that the driver and hirer are the same person, and all of the requirements of PoFA to allow transfer of the liability have been met.

A consequence of the utter failure of proper procedure then the lack of driver identity, coupled with your assertions that you do not know the driver's identity lead me to a conclusion that there is no cause at all to continue with the use of my personal details.

I now place you under notice to desist in your claim against me and serve you with a section 10 of the Data Protect Act to destroy the data held on your records. Failure of this will result in a claim for damages for a breach of the Data Protection Act.

If you do continue in your claim, not only will I invoke the DPA for the claim for damages, I will invoice you for an amount of £19 per letter I send in response of your own correspondence, and if this matter progresses to court will add on an amount of no less than £150 for the necessary expense and administration I will need to complete.

FOR CLARIFICATION

Contractual Agreement is set by way of performance, as you claim to be able to do on your own signs.

c1223

Wed, 12 Apr 2017 - 13:07

OK great thanks. I will get something like that sent over.

I just want to check I'm 100% in the right here:

My car is a lease car (i.e. a finance company holds the V5). When the finance company transferred liability to me, should the PPC pass on that information to me as per the PoFA 14 (2)(a)? So the standard "PCN" letter isn't enough, it must also include the letter from the finance company?

SchoolRunMum

Wed, 12 Apr 2017 - 20:57

QUOTE (c1223 @ Wed, 12 Apr 2017 - 14:07)

Yes, so you can't be held liable unless they can evidence you were the driver.

So, if you never imply who was driving and just defend as hirer/lessee, then they have failed to invoke liability and they can't put it right now. They needed to comply with para 13 and 14 of the POFA Schedule 4 and no PPC ever does...

c1223

Thu, 3 Aug 2017 - 19:18

A few months ago I sent them (UK CPM) the following:

QUOTE

NOTICE ISSUED PURSUANT TO SECTION 10
OF THE DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998

I write pursuant to my rights granted by Section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998. I hereby give you notice that you must, within the time periods prescribed below, permanently cease processing all personal data of which I am the data subject. If you do not normally handle Data Protection notices for your organisation, please pass this notice to your Data Protection officer or another appropriate official.

THE MEANING OF THIS NOTICE

For the avoidance of doubt this notice requires you to do all of the following:
(1) within 3 days of receipt of this letter to cease or not to begin to:
(a) obtain;
(b) record; or
© hold, any personal data of which I am the data subject (“my personal data”); and
(2) with immediate effect to cease or not to begin to carry out any operation or a series of
operations involving my personal data including operations that would amount to the:
(a) organisation, adaption or alteration;
(b) retrieval, consultation or use;
© disclosure by transmission, dissemination or otherwise making available; or
(d) alignment or combination, of information or data.

GROUNDS FOR NOTICE

(a) the processing of my personal data by you is causing or is likely to cause substantial damage to me and any person residing with me;
(b) the processing of my personal data by you is illegal as you do not have my consent.
© the processing of my personal data is illegal as we do not have a contract.
(d) the processing of my personal data is illegal as you have no legal obligation that applies to your organisation.
(e) the processing of my personal data is illegal as it is not necessary for you to protect my vital interests.
(f) in any case the damage and/or distress is unwarranted.

NO EXEMPTION FROM THE PROVISIONS OF SECTION 10 OF THE DATA
PROTECTION ACT 1998

You are not excused compliance with this NOTICE under the provisions of Section 10(2) of the Data Protection Act by virtue of the reasons set out below:
(1) I have not given you my consent to process my personal data.
(2) I am not a party to a contract with you.
(3) You have no legal obligation with which you must comply and which would permit you to process my personal data.
(4) No processing undertaken by you could be undertaken to protect my vital interests.

WHAT YOU MUST DO NEXT

In any event you must within 21 days of receiving this NOTICE give me notice in writing stating:
(1) you have complied with the provisions of this NOTICE in full; or
(2)(a) you have complied with the provisions of this NOTICE in part , stating which parts; and
(2)(b) as to the parts not so complied with, your reasons for not doing so, including evidence that you can substantiate.

WARNING CONSEQUENCES OF FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THIS NOTICE

Should you fail to comply with the provisions of this notice, I reserve absolutely the right to obtain without further reference to you a county court or High Court order to compel you to comply with this notice together with an order that you pay my associated legal costs in full and for me to make an application for damages associated with your unlawful processing of my personal data.

I've now received a LBC from Gladstones... What should my next step be?

cabbyman

Thu, 3 Aug 2017 - 19:34

I would reply to their LBA along the lines of a statement that an action by them against you will trigger a counter claim in the sum of £xxx for continued use of your data, in accordance with your letter of xx/xx/xx

Await the opinion of others.

nosferatu1001

Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 03:54

Pretty much that
Deny debt, reiterate the Hirer has no possible liability for this parking charge as their client has failed to comply with teh requirements of POFA, and that their clients failure to rebut your proven assertion means they agree with it. Add that by starting an action they know has no prospect of success, they lay themselves open to being found unreasonable under rule 27.14(g)(2), and you will apply for your costs at 50% of the Band D rate as acknowledged by courts as being valid where rule 27.14(g)(2) has been found to be reached.

State you will counter claim for the sum of X made up of Y and Z amounts.

c1223

Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 22:27

I sent the following message back in August, and just now have received a letter from Gladstones with a whole load of bollocks, but the long and short of it is that the letters says "Our client has evidence of a parking charge notice (notice to driver) being affixed to the vehicle windscreen at the time it was issued". UK CPM sent me their evidence, including the shot of the front of my car, and there is no ticket on it. (Also, for clarification, there wasn't EVER a ticket on the car - the first I heard of this was the NTK).

What is my next step? How do I go about making a counter claim for the £500 as stipulated in my letter?

nosferatu1001

Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 23:38

Well the clue is in the name. It’s a claim that counters THEIR claim. They dint have one yet.

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