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Full Version: 50mph in 30 Zone am I Screwed? (video included)
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googlyamnesiac
Yesterday I received an intent to prosecute letter for travelling 50mph in a 30 zone. I immediately nearly threw up and was certain it was a mistake as there's absolutely no way I would ever be doing 50 in a 30 zone! I tend to annoy the hell out of my wife for driving at the speed limits to see how good I can get my mpg reading to save money. Anyway, that aside I had to go and retrace my route to find out how on earth I managed to drive through a 30 zone at 50. I came away feeling cheated and as such set up a dash cam to record the incident (although this time driving past the fixed camera well under 30!)

Below is the video I recorded. You'll see there is a tiny 30mph sign in the verge so I know I likely have no case for argument here. However, as I turned out from the industrial estate I believed I was driving down a 60mph road (no street lights and every other road around here both before and after this tiny stretch are 60mph). If I had been travelling down this road for longer (i.e. having not turned out just onto it) then I would have seen the HUGE speed camera warnings and massive 30MPH signs and signs on the road itself! (watch towards the end of the video and you'll see what I mean).

https://youtu.be/bdQW0Vgq1yc

Is there anything that I can do as it seems i'm likely to get 6 points at least and possible a summons??

Any help or advice appreciated!
Jlc
What's the road? Most forces do go to court at 50mph (some at 55mph).

Passing the 30mph repeater isn't going to do you any favours but interested in your route prior to turning onto the road.
googlyamnesiac
Here's the google map location:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.921997,-1.3...3312!8i6656
peterguk
QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:04) *



Looks like you missed the 30mph terminal sign at the end of the side road.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.9218325,-1....3312!8i6656
The Rookie
You were presumably in a 30 limit before exiting the side turning where the video starts.

if you were already in a 30 limit then there would appear to be no defence based on what you've shown us.

If you hadn't entered a 30 limit prior to video starting then you may have the start of a defence.
googlyamnesiac
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:07) *
QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:04) *



Looksw like you missed the 30mph terminal sign at the e4nd of the side road.


I see what you mean now. Anyone know what the likely outcome is from West Yorkshire police on this one then? If I do get a summons is it worth me going down the made a mistake route. I mean, I hold my hands up and see that I was speeding but I genuinely had no idea I was in a 30 zone at the time, granted I should have done but my focus at the time of joining that road was the signs directly opposite me and then I missed the repeater. I regard myself as a good driver without ever being stopped or any points my whole 15 years of driving (granted not my best moment here) I must have had a lapse in concentration and presumed seeing the country road and no houses n my view that it was 60mph. Can't imagine this will stand me well in court though if it gets to there.

If you didn't see the signs here wouldn't you presume it was a 60mph road too given the way it looks? Or am I looking through biased eyes?
Jlc
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:07) *
Looks like you missed the 30mph terminal sign at the end of the side road.

Actually I think they are repeaters because of leaving the restricted road (streetlighting). That and the repeater prior to the camera is going to make it hard to argue on signage.

QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:13) *
If you didn't see the signs here wouldn't you presume it was a 60mph road too given the way it looks? Or am I looking through biased eyes?

Yes but you didn't pass a NSL sign coming from the restricted road (30mph). Without the repeaters then it would be 60mph for cars.

QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:13) *
Anyone know what the likely outcome is from West Yorkshire police on this one then?

Their policy is summons @ 50mph:



As the calc, discounted by 33% for a guilty plea, costs of £85 and surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30).
googlyamnesiac
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:27) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:07) *
Looks like you missed the 30mph terminal sign at the end of the side road.

Actually I think they are repeaters because of leaving the restricted road (streetlighting). That and the repeater prior to the camera is going to make it hard to argue on signage.

QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:13) *
If you didn't see the signs here wouldn't you presume it was a 60mph road too given the way it looks? Or am I looking through biased eyes?

Yes but you didn't pass a NSL sign coming from the restricted road (30mph). Without the repeaters then it would be 60mph for cars.

QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:13) *
Anyone know what the likely outcome is from West Yorkshire police on this one then?

Their policy is summons @ 50mph:



As the calc, discounted by 33% for a guilty plea, costs of £85 and surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30).


Ouch! What a damn expensive accident! :-(
Jlc
QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:42) *
Ouch! What a damn expensive accident! :-(

But your Wife may see the funny side of it? wink.gif
peterguk
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 15:17) *
QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:42) *
Ouch! What a damn expensive accident! :-(

But your Wife may see the funny side of it? wink.gif


Maybe OP is the wife. laugh.gif
googlyamnesiac
If I do get a summons (which sounds likely based on what has been said) am I right in thinking that it's advised that I should attend rather than plead guilty via post? Coming to terms with the mistake I seem to have made and trying to figure out what is the best course of action. Really worried now I might get a disqualification if I don't attend too!
peterguk
QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 15:42) *
Really worried now I might get a disqualification if I don't attend too!


You can't be disqualified in your absence. If you don't attend, and the Mags. are considering disqualification, they will adjourn and request that you attend.
Jlc
They won't ban without your presence - if they are considering a ban then they will request your presence, so a postal plea is worth trying if offered. Many cases are now heard under the Single Justice Procedure where a single magistrate sentences on papers only.
googlyamnesiac
thanks for the advice so far. Whilst it's not the answers I was hoping, it strangely helps to talk about it as it's really eating me up at the moment. Haven't been able to sleep properly or even eat much with worry. Any ideas how quickly they respond after sending back to NIP? We're in the process of selling our house too (just gone on the market) and whilst the address is correct now, it may not be in a few months time.
StuartBu
QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 15:03) *
thanks for the advice so far. Whilst it's not the answers I was hoping, it strangely helps to talk about it as it's really eating me up at the moment. Haven't been able to sleep properly or even eat much with worry. Any ideas how quickly they respond after sending back to NIP? We're in the process of selling our house too (just gone on the market) and whilst the address is correct now, it may not be in a few months time.


Regardless get Mail Redirection and don't forget to change your address ( V5c and DL) with DVLA

QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 13:07) *
QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:04) *



Looks like you missed the 30mph terminal sign at the end of the side road.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.9218325,-1....3312!8i6656


I can sort of understand why it might be missed ...Not a lot of thought appears to have gone in to placing others where they wouldn't be missed ,like facing drivers as they turned right ,for example ..
googlyamnesiac
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 16:22) *
QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 15:03) *
thanks for the advice so far. Whilst it's not the answers I was hoping, it strangely helps to talk about it as it's really eating me up at the moment. Haven't been able to sleep properly or even eat much with worry. Any ideas how quickly they respond after sending back to NIP? We're in the process of selling our house too (just gone on the market) and whilst the address is correct now, it may not be in a few months time.


Regardless get Mail Redirection and don't forget to change your address ( V5c and DL) with DVLA

QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 13:07) *
QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 14:04) *



Looks like you missed the 30mph terminal sign at the end of the side road.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.9218325,-1....3312!8i6656


I can sort of understand why it might be missed ...Not a lot of thought appears to have gone in to placing others where they wouldn't be missed ,like facing drivers as they turned right ,for example ..


Exactly - yours eyes are naturally looking in the direction in which you are going to be turning (and to observe the signs directly opposite you at the junction). Looking at that google maps image it seems even the council miss it when cleaning too, covered in muck!
Jlc
The 30mph repeater is the real issue (and you were in a restricted road to start with). There was no NSL signs.

Of course, you can suggest the signage mitigates but doesn't appear to create a defence.
googlyamnesiac
I think that's more what i'm thinking really, that it should be accounted for to reduce the punishment not to get me off without any charge at all. Ultimately I made a mistake and it was a genuine accident but sadly if this doesn't go to court (not that I really want it to) then on paper it really doesn't look good. Never in a million years would I normally drive 50 in a 30 limit! :-(
Jlc
Indeed, sod's law isn't it. You can obviously state this (honestly) and concisely point out the signage and momentary lapse - but the sentencing guidelines will be quite closely followed... It's important to ensure no aggravating factors are present, e.g. wet, busy, near school.
Kelevra
Took me a few times watching the video to catch that 30 sign

Why was i under the impression that you couldn't get caught if you were flashed from the opposite side of the road?

Or have i somehow missed a camera in the video?
peterguk
QUOTE (Kelevra @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 20:46) *
Why was i under the impression that you couldn't get caught if you were flashed from the opposite side of the road?


Are you thinking of Gatsos and oncoming traffic?

What device caught you?
Jlc
At 0:30 you can see the camera, and at 0:33 you can see the sensors on the road.

It looks like a Truvelo D-Cam which are used in West Yorkshire...
peterguk
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 20:55) *
At 0:30 you can see the camera, and at 0:33 you can see the sensors on the road.

It looks like a Truvelo D-Cam which are used in West Yorkshire...


Just seen it.
Jlc
They can work for approaching and receding traffic.
googlyamnesiac
QUOTE (Kelevra @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 20:46) *
Took me a few times watching the video to catch that 30 sign


Took my wife 3 attempts watching it before she saw it. If I go to court, is it worth me getting out my phone?? Or including photos on the letter if I go down that route of the 'covered in ****' 30mph sign before joining the road and the tiny 30mph on the road, I wonder?
Jlc
You're still forgetting you were in a restricted road and there were no signs to change that limit. Indeed, there's a 30mph repeater which whilst 'small' will be of the prescribed size.
peterguk
QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Fri, 28 Oct 2016 - 08:28) *
QUOTE (Kelevra @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 20:46) *
Took me a few times watching the video to catch that 30 sign


Took my wife 3 attempts watching it before she saw it. If I go to court, is it worth me getting out my phone?? Or including photos on the letter if I go down that route of the 'covered in ****' 30mph sign before joining the road and the tiny 30mph on the road, I wonder?


In addition the JLC's points above, I saw it immediately. Give Way sign, then the 30mph terminal sign. You'll have been almost stationary at that point. I wouldn't be relying on that as a defence.
Jlc
There's possibly some mitigation but I wouldn't be looking to plead not guilty.
StuartBu
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 28 Oct 2016 - 08:04) *
QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Fri, 28 Oct 2016 - 08:28) *
QUOTE (Kelevra @ Thu, 27 Oct 2016 - 20:46) *
Took me a few times watching the video to catch that 30 sign


Took my wife 3 attempts watching it before she saw it. If I go to court, is it worth me getting out my phone?? Or including photos on the letter if I go down that route of the 'covered in ****' 30mph sign before joining the road and the tiny 30mph on the road, I wonder?


In addition the JLC's points above, I saw it immediately. Give Way sign, then the 30mph terminal sign. You'll have been almost stationary at that point. I wouldn't be relying on that as a defence.


Reading posts by Kelevra and Googlyamnesiacs posts I thought they were talking about the not very obvious 30 sign at 23 secs in ...I could be wrong tho'
googlyamnesiac
So I got a letter back stating I can pay 100 pounds with 3 points. I guess that's better than expected all things considered.
The Rookie
Yup, not all forces would offer it, take it!
googlyamnesiac
Definitely will do! Thanks for everyone's advice up to this point.

Once this is all settled though - away from my offence, who would I need to contact with regards to better signage along this seemingly 60mph looking road? The council?
Jlc
QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Tue, 1 Nov 2016 - 16:37) *
Definitely will do! Thanks for everyone's advice up to this point.

And buy a lottery ticket as it appears to be against their usual policy...

QUOTE (googlyamnesiac @ Tue, 1 Nov 2016 - 16:37) *
Once this is all settled though - away from my offence, who would I need to contact with regards to better signage along this seemingly 60mph looking road? The council?

Yes, but the signage is 'legally' sufficient but I don't disagree with the reality.
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