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rsg444
Hi all,

Me again. My Mum parked her car on a Single Yellow Line in Barkingside, the road has a restriction from 2pm to 3pm. She forgot the time and came back to a ticket :-(

Is there any grounds of appeal - such as saying something like, did the CEO wait 5 minutes and ask for notes or anything similar or the signage wasn't clear because there's a sign pointing one way and then underneath another pointing the other way.

The signs for road were behind a tree so not really easy to read.

If it's a case of suck it up and pay then fair enough but if there is a glimmer of hope to not pay (in protest to our roads still having pot holes in them) then your help as always will be much appreciated!

Pics below:









Incandescent
What is the time of issue of the PCN. There is a 10 minute grace period for all parking bays whether paid-for or not.
PASTMYBEST
We need to see the council photos to see exactly where she parked to give a view
rsg444
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 21 Oct 2016 - 12:31) *
We need to see the council photos to see exactly where she parked to give a view


They're not visible on the website - tried different browsers, they were there last week but not anymore.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (rsg444 @ Fri, 21 Oct 2016 - 12:39) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 21 Oct 2016 - 12:31) *
We need to see the council photos to see exactly where she parked to give a view


They're not visible on the website - tried different browsers, they were there last week but not anymore.


Ask for them , we are blind without them
rsg444
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 21 Oct 2016 - 12:42) *
QUOTE (rsg444 @ Fri, 21 Oct 2016 - 12:39) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 21 Oct 2016 - 12:31) *
We need to see the council photos to see exactly where she parked to give a view


They're not visible on the website - tried different browsers, they were there last week but not anymore.


Ask for them , we are blind without them


Photos below - thanks for your help so far.
rsg444
OK, they've sent me the 3 pictures they had, I hope they help....





rsg444
The pictures are pretty poor IMO, below is a street view of where the car was parked - in same place as the Range Rover.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5917287,0...1!1e1?hl=en

PASTMYBEST
From GSV I think you have a fair shot at signage not adequate,
rsg444
Are you able to assist with my informal reps?

Would it be something like:

Dear Redbridge Parking,

I wish to appeal this ticket as the signage on Sydney Road is not clear. The sign which states the times is obscured by a tree ......

Is there anything I can say about the observation time length?

My 14 days expires tomorrow.

Thanks.
hcandersen
Forget the tree.

You were on a yellow line; it is therefore your obligation to look for the governing traffic sign. Even the least diligent of drivers would have found the sign.

IMO. you main argument is the grace period.

Make reps that the authority could not serve a PCN before 2.11pm by virtue of the 2015 amendment to the General Regs as follows:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/56...gulation/2/made

The prohibition applies provided that at the time of the contravention the location was a designated parking place - whether a parking restriction applied at that time is not material, only that it was a designated parking place. Therefore, if the authority reject these representations they are obliged to state whether by virtue of the governing traffic order the location was a designated parking place at the time of the contravention.

(If logically follows from the amendment that the benefit given to motorists should not be restricted to only the hours of operation of a parking place).
rsg444
hcanderson - thank you! I will definitely try this! Thank you so much!
rsg444
Hi HCAnderson, I've sent my reps as suggested above. However the question I have is, if we are trying to establish if it is a designated parking space at the time of the contravention and we find out that it is not, how does it help me? I don't quite understand the legislation here.
rsg444
Hi I received the following response in relation to my appeal which is also below - any ideas on what I should do next?
**********************
Dear Redbridge Parking and Traffic Enforcement,

RE: PCN x on x

I wish to appeal the PCN that was issued. The grounds of my appeal relate to the following legislation:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/56...gulation/2/made

I draw your attention in particular to the following within the legislation amendment:

"(3) No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes."

As a result, it was unlawful to issue a PCN before 14:11 whereas the PCN clearly shows that the PCN was issued before 14:11 and so during this 10 minute period.

Therefore, please can you cancel this PCN.

Yours sincerely,

ME

***********************

RESPONSE FROM REDBRIDGE

***********************

Penalty Charge Notice (PCN): x
Vehicle Registration: x

Thank you for your letter regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice, your comments are noted. The details of the notice have been checked and I conclude that the notice was issued correctly.

The details of the notice have been checked and found to be valid. Please note that you are not permitted to park on yellow lines during prescribed hours, shown on either time plates or controlled zone entry signs.

I have noted your comments, and the 10 minute grace period you mention only relates to vehicles parked in a pay and display and does not relate to vehicle parked on yellow lines. Please be advised that no grace period will be given to any vehicle parked on yellow lines as any vehicle seen parked will be issued with a PCN immediately. I am therefore satisfied that the PCN has been issued correctly and remains valid.

On this basis the Penalty Charge must be paid, if paid within fourteen days from the date on this letter the reduced rate of £55.00 will be accepted. After this point the full charge of £110.00 will become due.

If you do not wish to accept this decision you are able to appeal further to the Councils Parking Appeals section. To do this you must wait for a Notice to Owner to be sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle at the full charge of £110.00. Once this has been received you will be required to follow the instructions given to make a formal representation.

Should your representation be rejected you will be sent a form to appeal to the Independent Adjudicator, whose decision is final.

Yours sincerely
PASTMYBEST
The grace period does not apply to yellow lines,

when you get out of the car and look, you easily see two signs the parking (white sign with blue P and the footway parking blue sign) the no waiting sign is lost from view behind the tree.

Being on a yellow line should you have had a look round to ascertain the restriction. Yes

Could you have been confused by the other more prominent sign. Yes

Did that affect your decision to park, and would an adjudicator find that a valid defence. Your guess is as good as mine, but it's your money
DancingDad
I'm struggling with the designated parking place and 10 minute grace period.
Can't see a designated parking place where the OP says they were parked (where range rover is in link) ??
rsg444
Hi all, thanks for your feedback. I think HCAnderson's approach suggests that anywhere on the road could be a designated parking space - HCAnderson, is this what you meant?

Just saw this in the explanatory notes section on legislative website:

On the question of extending grace periods to other areas such as yellow lines and loading
bays, the majority of individuals (55%) and organisations (75%) disagreed with this
proposal. There were concerns that allowing free periods in places where parking is not
permitted (such as on double yellow lines), could lead to confusion and encourage more
anti-social and potentially dangerous parking. In the light of these responses, the
Government decided not to introduce mandatory grace periods in wider circumstances
other than a 10 minute mandatory grace period at the end of on-street and off-street paidfor-parking
and free parking periods.


I sent this just now:

I note your response. Please can you send me any traffic orders or resolutions in relation to SYDNEY ROAD, Barkingside and can you also state whether the location in which the vehicle was parked was a designated parking space both before and during the restricted hours.

Having this information will enable me to make a fair and informed judgement as to how to proceed with this matter.
DancingDad
Designated parking place would normally mean a marked bay with some sort of restriction on use.
Even if the restriction is free parking, 1 hour limit it would be a designated bay by virtue of the amended regulations.

But only bays I can see here are footway parking bays and not even in one of those.
Open to correction but AFAIK, allowing footway parking (which sign does) does not create a designated parking place.
rsg444
Looks like I'm going to have to pay, they've sent me the traffic management order too and it looks ok.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (rsg444 @ Thu, 1 Dec 2016 - 20:52) *
Looks like I'm going to have to pay, they've sent me the traffic management order too and it looks ok.



Is the discount still available or do you need to pay 130
rsg444
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 1 Dec 2016 - 21:29) *
QUOTE (rsg444 @ Thu, 1 Dec 2016 - 20:52) *
Looks like I'm going to have to pay, they've sent me the traffic management order too and it looks ok.



Is the discount still available or do you need to pay 130


Discount is still available
hcandersen
The blue P on a white background is the mandated and standard form for a parking place.

The WHITE P on a blue background is the form for parking on the footway.

The sign in evidence is a blue P on a white background.

Figure 8.2 gives the blue P on white in conjunctuon with a waiting restriction and applies to a parking place, not an undesignated length of street.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...-chapter-03.pdf

The sign under this is a white P on blue to the right.

IMO, a reasonable and arguable line at adjudication is that to the left is a designated parking place whose restriction ends at 2.00.

The contravention was timed at 2.09, therefore the 10-minute grace period should apply.
rsg444
I see your point hcanderson, they've sent me the TMO for that road - i'll upload it below. But what about in legislation.gov the bit about: the grace not applying to yellow lines?



TMO

http://docdro.id/FlXTNL0
Incandescent
The 10 minute rule applies as these are designated parking places within the times stated. An easy win, I would have thought, at adjudication. OP will have to stand his ground though, and forego the discount as council is extremely unlikely to give way, but who knows, they might so best to challenge based on the 10 minute rule and see what they say.
rsg444
hI Incandescent, totally understand where you're coming from but then legislation.gov clearly states that yellow lines do not have a grace period, therefore the real question here is if this is a designated parking spot and a yellow line, what happens?
Incandescent
If it was a double-yellow, yes, but the council cannot deny they have erected a parking sign that allows parking partway off the carriageway. If that is not a designated parking place then what is ? This really needs to get to adjudication if the council are obdurate.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 2 Dec 2016 - 19:29) *
If it was a double-yellow, yes, but the council cannot deny they have erected a parking sign that allows parking partway off the carriageway. If that is not a designated parking place then what is ? This really needs to get to adjudication if the council are obdurate.



Do not go with that as your only point. that the signage is confusing and obscure( you can see the parking sign from where you parked but not the no waiting) should also be a point
rsg444
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 2 Dec 2016 - 21:19) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 2 Dec 2016 - 19:29) *
If it was a double-yellow, yes, but the council cannot deny they have erected a parking sign that allows parking partway off the carriageway. If that is not a designated parking place then what is ? This really needs to get to adjudication if the council are obdurate.



Do not go with that as your only point. that the signage is confusing and obscure( you can see the parking sign from where you parked but not the no waiting) should also be a point


Thank you, after reading the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 I've realised that the sign is not compliant with whats in there and so requires authorisation. I have request a copy of this authorisation (which I don't expect Redbridge to have).
PASTMYBEST
You are in danger of confusing your self and an adjudicator with points that have no relevance, the signs each of themselves are authorised by TSRGD 2016.

the no waiting sign pointing left with a time restriction governs the yellow line. Where you parked.. Schedule 4 part 3 item 1 of TSRGD 2016

The parking sign allows parking outside of the restriction it is schedule 4 part 4 item 3 of TSRGD 2016. Imo taken together they are self explanatory.

confusion is caused by the height and so the visibility of the no waiting sign. This is the primary sign and should be the most prominent.
but what you see as you get out of your car is a sign that allows parking half on footpath.

further underneath is a further sign 667. this has no relevance to you, other than it adds to the sign clutter and the amount of information you need take in at a glance.

I say at a glance because of the prominence of the parking sign in relation to the others


rsg444
Ok cool PASTMYBEST, I won't pursue the traffic signs authorsied bit.

I've found this: http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/...20/t107016.html

It didn't go all the way to London Tribunals but got cancelled by the council. Redbridge aren't known to cancel things like this so as pointed out earlier looks like I will have to stand my ground and wait for an NTO.

To summarise that I've understood correctly.

The presence of the sign indicates that it is a designated parking spot regardless of the yellow line. Therefore the 10 minute grace period applies. Is there any legislation available that defines a designated parking spot?

Thanks all for your help so far.
PASTMYBEST
the council position will be that the sign relates to the bay at the end of the SYL. Your argument is the sign creates parking places to the left of it as it states. This being the case the grace period applies
The positioning of the sign creates confusion. added to that the no waiting sign is obscured.

To avoid this confusion the parking sign should be positioned at the start of the bay, and the no waiting sign lowered to make it more visible

What you have is a SYL that denotes a restriction, but this is signed by an enabling sign indicating parking is allowed
rsg444
Its me again! As advised by Pastmybest, I wasn't going to pursue the unauthorised sign thing. The reason for asking the council to send me the authorisation stemmed from me reading the Traffic Signs Manual chapter 3 where it showed that the signs similar to the ones on SYDNEY ROAD when combined required authorisation.

I had already sent the email requesting the authorisation before Pastmybest advised me to leave that angle. However, today I received a response from Redbridge saying:

" Thank you for your email, your comment are noted.

Please be advised that in order to investigate your request you would need to make a formal representation in regards to your enquiry. In order to do this you would need to wait for the Notice to Order to be served. (Please see instructions on your informal letter of rejection)".

Is this not procedural impropriety? I was hoping to see the authorisation to make a judgement as to whether I should just pay during the discount phase but now they're forcing me to wait for an NTO and so forfeit the discount just to get a piece of information. This combined with the designated parking spot argument puts me in a good position if(when) I take my appeal to London Tribunals does it not?
rsg444
Should i pursue procedural improp too - I ask as PASTMYBEST also suggested I have a couple of grounds as part of my appeal.

Thanks for your help so far all!
PASTMYBEST
No that is not a PI.

To my mind there are two arguments you can use, but only either one of them as they contradict each other.

That the parking sign mislead you, the no waiting sign being obscured

or that irrespective of the no waiting sign the parking sign creates a designated parking place, so the grace period should apply
rsg444
Ok thanks PMB - I'll stick with the designated place. Today is the last day of the discount so I'm going to bite the bullet and wait for the NTO.
hcandersen
Fine. Don't forget to stress that as that sign may only be used to indicate a designated parking place then it is reasonable for you to conclude that it is such a parking place and that the 10-minute grace period should apply because the alleged contravention occurred within the 10-minute period.

AND

That if the authority reject your reps then they are required to state whether they accept that the delineated area to which the parking sign refers is a designated parking place and that if they do not then with what authority they have placed a sign which may only be used to indicate such a place.
rsg444
Dear all,

So we waited...and waited for an NTO to arrive through the post but nothing came in. I checked the website and the status of the PCN almost daily where it remained as "Challenge rejected" all the way up until last week. This morning I received a charge certificate through the post with 50% extra slapped on.

I spoke to Redbridge today who said that I can submit a formal rep which will be marked late or I can wait until they sent further documents where I sign a witness statement saying that I did not receive an NTO.

Are you able to offer any advice?

Many thanks!
nextdoor
Best stick to normal procedure. Wait for the Order for Recovery and then submit a witness statement that you didn't receive the NTO.
rsg444
Thanks, should I notify the council via email that this is my intention?

PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (rsg444 @ Thu, 26 Jan 2017 - 10:14) *
Thanks, should I notify the council via email that this is my intention?


No wait for the CC then sometime after 14 days you will receive an order for recovery that allows you to submit a form to the TEC (traffic enforcement centre) to the effect that you did not receive a NTO


Keep an eye out for these docs if these are missed things get messy
hcandersen
Email the authority, reference and set out your discussion, including confirmation as to the date of issue of the NTO, and ask them to confirm that in these circumstances they would accept and not disregard representations received outside the 28-day period.

They should not act in this way and this could establish the grounds of appeal of procedural impropriety. You cannot make reps because:

You've not been served with a NTO, and
Even if they have issued one you would be denied the opportunity to scrutinise this for compliance with the regulations including whether the NTO is even addressed to YOU.

As far as I recollect, your correspondence to date has been as driver. The authority must issue the NTO to the person on DVLA's register of keepers on the date of the contravention. Please confirm this was you at your current address.

By the way, and without trawling back through the thread, looking at the photo of the sign suggests there is an elephant in the room.

The top half refers to no waiting for an indeterminate length of highway to the left of the sign between 2pm and 3pm on Mondays to Saturday, inclusive. The lower panel states that parking may take place on the footway at any time on a Sat.
These are absolutely contradictory. If you parked 2 wheels up on a Sat between 2pm and 3pm you would be in contravention of the waiting restriction.

rsg444
Thank you hcadnerson and all for your input. I have sent an email as advised by HCA - Hopefully they'll just cancel it.
Mad Mick V
This is of course Redbridge who can't find the footway parking resolution.

Subject to the OP finding his way through the current impasse, it might be useful to kick about the notion that both SYL and sign could be illegal.

If Redbridge got an Article 15 resolution allowing footway parking it cannot IMO come up with subsequent restrictions which debar motorists from footway parking----classic Wednesbury Unreasonableness.

Mick
rsg444
Ok thanks Mad Mick v, I've already sent an email as per HCA's suggestion already so didn't include what you've suggested but that's really useful to know should (when) they reject my reps.
rsg444
Dear all,

I received a Notice of Rejection in relation to the PCN. I haven't had a chance to upload it however one point I wanted to clarify with you was something they included in the letter. I informed them that I was no longer the registered keeper of the vehicle (however at the time of the alleged contravention, I was). They have said in their NoR:

**************

"You state in your representation that you are no longer the registered keeper. In order to exonerate you from this PCN, we require a letter on headed paper from the DVLA that you are no longer the registered keeper within 14 days of the date of receipt of this letter. Failure to do so will result in full liability for the contravention.

You now have the following options;

A letter from the DVLA

Pay the outstanding amount of £110.00 within 28 days of the date this letter was served

Or you can appeal to the Environment & Traffic Adjudicators using the enclosed appeal form......."

****************

Does this therefore mean that if I send them a copy of the letter I received from the DVLA confirming that I am no longer the keeper then the matter is closed?

Neil B
How much dumber can they get.

Why did you mention no longer RK anyway?

Let's have a look.
DancingDad
Dumb is the right word but......
Contact DVLA and ask them for the letter, forward it to Redbridge, see what happens, you never know smile.gif

Do not miss deadline to appeal to LT while waiting for an answer.
rsg444
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 5 Mar 2017 - 16:31) *
How much dumber can they get.

Why did you mention no longer RK anyway?

Let's have a look.


I didn't receive a Notice to Owner from them, even the status on their website was on "Challenge logged" for weeks and weeks and then all of sudden it changed to "Charge Certificate sent" when we received a CC out of the blue. I called to explain an NTO had not been sent and they advised me to send formal reps so I did. When I received the CC, I had sold the car a few days earlier and so I thought I ought to let Redbridge know that this was the case so that some poor bloke who bought my car didn't start receiving threatening letters.

Thanks Dancing Dad, what I've done is I've sent a copy of the original letter DVLA sent me confirming that I was no longer the registered keeper.
DancingDad
QUOTE (rsg444 @ Sun, 5 Mar 2017 - 17:17) *
........Thanks Dancing Dad, what I've done is I've sent a copy of the original letter DVLA sent me confirming that I was no longer the registered keeper.


I must admit I am intrigued by the outcome.
That you are no longer the RK is neither here nor there.
But as they have asked for proof, there is a possibility that they will simply rubber stamp it, tick the box saying proof supplied and cancel with absolutely no reason to.
You are not in the wrong having followed their instructions.

And could have an argument that if they reject you can still go to LT despite the deadline being missed.
But on balance I would still register the appeal in time, maybe on Day 27 or 28 smile.gif
rsg444
Yes, i'll keep you informed with the progress. In terms of appealing should this not go well, they failed to consider any of my points.
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