Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: [NIP Wizard] Threat of Charge for Non supply of driver details under S172
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
jcb
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2016
Date of the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 11 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Colinton Road Edinburgh North of glenlockhart road
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - this is the problem. I have been trying to confirm the disposal date of the vehicle as I suspected it was after the disposal
How many current points do you have? - 9
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I sold the car to the trade through a free advert
Guy came and took away the car and the entire V5
He indicated that he would send in the Yellow component and that as it was trade this was the form and it was different to me sending in the major left hand side part and a buyer keeping the new part in a standard transaction.
As he paid and was taking it away I was happy.

since receiving the NIP, I spoke with the safety camera unit and the DVLA as I was concerned the date of the NIP was around the time I sold the car and the location is right along from my house

As I had no paperwork I needed to fill out a DVLA written request which takes 6-8 weeks they said.
The camera unit gave me an extension until the 22nd of August to get the info.
When the DVLA wrote back the date of transfer they have on file is wrong. I know its wrong as its the same day I acquired my replacement car and I simply couldn't have been in two places at once and there was definitely a gap between the ownership of the two vehicles
My problem is I can't get the copy of the Yellow V5 form as I didnt send it...so I can't get the buyer's details to contact him to clarify.
The DVLA have the wrong date but I can't confirm the correct one as they only use the yellow disposal slip as notification which seems open to abuse as I didnt send anything to check against

I have rung the camera unit three times since and finally wrote to them on Monday as I heard nothing back, I explained the problem and requested time to get the details sorted with the DVLA.
They wrote back today in a fairly blunt tone saying they were only going by what was on record, they couldn't understand why I would claim to keep insurance on a car I no longer had in the gap and ......that I had 9 points!
this was a shock as I was sure some had expired (apparently due Mar 2017)
So they clearly think I was panicking about a 12 point tot up.
I wasn't but am now!

I assume I just have to sit and wait for a summons now.
The offence date is 5m and 2 days ago.


I have done an awful lot of faffing around to confirm details which to me are fairly straightforward but I am not allowed to get anything over the phone and only allowed to get certain details in writing, none of which allow me to clarify the error in the date on the register.

The Police/Camera unit have access to the buyer, the pictures from the GATSO itself, none of which has been used to clear this up in a reasonable timescale.

Assuming this does get into court inside the 6m window ...

Do I just plead that I have tried to clarify the driver/non driver and am clearly not avoiding the issue and hope for the best?
or
Does this look like something that requires a lawyer?





NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • As you are not the person keeping the vehicle, the reasonable diligence test doesn't apply to you.
    Therefore, you are only required to provide such information as is in your power to give (e.g. the names and addresses of the possible drivers).

    You should reply within the 28 day period and explain the circumstances in a covering letter.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 15:11:19 +0000
Jlc
You haven't helped yourself here... (You weren't supposed to give away all of the v5)

Anyway, it's quite important to establish whether or not you were the keeper at the material date. It has a major bearing on the information you needed to supply. If it was before you sold the vehicle then you would have to provide the driver details or if it was afterwards then you had to give the information you had that could lead to the identification of the driver, i.e. the person you sold it to.
StuartBu
So where did you see this FREE advert ...did you phone a number from the advert ..have you tried calling it again ....was no name given to you before or when he called to pick the car up. So you gave him both the car and the V5 ...Im sure that regardless of how you dispose of a vehicle it explains on it which parts need to be completed by whom and what part the seller keeps...did you not read it before handing it over .
sgtdixie
In the real world you have a significant problem. You are on 9 points so any endorsement will lead to a6 month toting up ban absent a successful exceptional hardship plea.

Look at this from the courts perspective. Someone facing a ban claims they sold the vehicle to a person unknown on the day of the offence but cannot say whether it was before or after the sale. They also do not know if they drove the car past the camera themselves around the same time. This is compounded by leaving insurance on the vehicle until a subsequent date which coincidentally ties in with paperwork to DVLA as the date of sale. (If I understand your OP correctly).

Put bluntly, unless you find the purchaser and they admit to driving I believe you are likely to be convicted.

There is case law (Atkinson rings a bell?) that there is no obligation to anticipate such an allegation and keep record in such an eventuality, but given you were required to record the new keeper details to tell DVLA I doubt that judgement would assist.

I would be preparing an exceptional hardship plea and thinking VERY hard what I would say to a court under oath.
jcb
Agree, have not helped myself, but am doing my best to try and recover the situation but being hampered at every turn by inability to get clear data

Answers to questions:

I placed an ad in gumtree for the sale of the car. Ad was deleted after car was sold and I think nothing of it. (if you dont delete you get calls/texts constantly!)
Ad ran for several weeks before the transfer though, in fact I ran several ads, one with different wheels I decided to sell

I got lots of calls and texts, not all of which I kept and the phone history doesn't go back that far
Guy calls, agrees to come round, shows up, pays cash.
explains trade transfer
all done

Yes, I should have read the V5 in more detail
Yes, I should be aware of what section to keep/not keep,
no, I shouldn't have taken the word of someone in the trade as to the practice used to dispose of the vehicle

Yes, I agree I need to clarify the date as I can't give them the info I should be giving them without it.
a) was I the keeper and therefore the drive
b) whoever the new keeper was......but how would I have the info if the DVLA won't give it to me!?

So lets for argument sake say I did fill out the left hand side and send it in, i would still have no info as I sent it in! (do you keep copies of everything?)
If the DVLA as they are saying have taken the disposal date from the Yellow trade disposal form then I would still potentially be in the same situation.

the issue now is not talk about the horse that used to be there or how I can in future lock the gate....

I suspect I am going to court sometime soon, have never been, no idea what to expect or what the procedure is for prosecuting someone for failing to return a form.

One thing occured to me
1st NIP is dated 21st may - I write in explaining I am not sure if I was the owner/driver
They send me a 2nd NIP dated 21st June - I call and explain the whole DVLA 6-8week response time
am given an extension to the 22nd August
I receive no further contact
I ring them three times in August and September, speak to a colleague who says the chap is away, he will call me back.
One week later I put it in writing to make sure it doesn't look like I am just ignoring the situation and clarify what is the problem.

They never sent a new NIP with the extended date on it
Is that significant?

I am beginning to think someone in the office forgot about this and now they have responded with the only course of action that covers their arse!
Very unusual for people not to chase, write, return calls or drop the hammer the day after the extension


now this has become such a problem (9 points and prospect of a topping up ban) it is an even bigger issue than before in which case I could just plead guilty to make the S172 failure to supply charge go away.

If I plead guilty to the camera offence I am asking for a ban
If I plead guilty to the S172 failure to provide offence I will likely get a ban and am I likely to get a potentially bigger fine?
Or I cross fingers that 3 week 5 days is a very short time to get a court date (is it?)


Do I need a lawyer here or am I missing something?

Some insight into the process of charging people for failure to supply details would be good
peterguk
QUOTE (jcb @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 17:03) *
Is that significant?


In what way?

1st NIP was properly served. Any prosecution for the FtF must be commenced within 6 months of the commission of the offence. Any extention offered is neither here or there since you've not, and never provided the details requested.

QUOTE (jcb @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 17:03) *
Some insight into the process of charging people for failure to supply details would be good


A summons (or Scottish equiv.) will be raised and sent to you. As stated above, proceedings must be commenced within 6 months of the commission of the offence. The summons may arrive a short time after the 6 month time period.
jcb
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 16:47) *
In the real world you have a significant problem. You are on 9 points so any endorsement will lead to a6 month toting up ban absent a successful exceptional hardship plea.

Look at this from the courts perspective.
Someone facing a ban claims they sold the vehicle to a person unknown on the day of the offence but cannot say whether it was before or after the sale.

They also do not know if they drove the car past the camera themselves around the same time.

This is compounded by leaving insurance on the vehicle until a subsequent date which coincidentally ties in with paperwork to DVLA as the date of sale.


I didn't know I was facing a ban until he told me! I appreciate that may be difficult to believe, but genuinely thought some of them had expired.

If the sale and the offence took place within a few days of the same date and the camera is near the house and drive past every day, several times a day its not hard to imagine where you may be reliant on the data on file.
Its that data that is wrong.

No-one cancels an insurance policy between cars
you lose your NCD for the previous period and have to start a year all over again
whereas a change of vehicle allows you to keep the NCD period

not that it will make any difference if I can't drive.....

The date of the end of insurance of the sold vehicle is the date of the acquisition of the new one as you change details.
thats my point, I know there was a gap between the new and old, I think of around two three weeks
12th may camera offence
31st may new car is received and insured

i don't understand why if I can't contact the last keeper why the DVLA or Camera Unit can't


Jlc
Any s172 occurs once the time given to respond (28 days) so the underlying offence may be around 5 months ago they have at least another 2 months to commence proceedings.

I can understand why you won't have details of the person you sold the car to but I'm surprised you can't pin the date down.
jcb
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 17:10) *
QUOTE (jcb @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 17:03) *
Is that significant?


In what way?

1st NIP was properly served. Any prosecution for the FtF must be commenced within 6 months of the commission of the offence. Any extention offered is neither here or there since you've not, and never provided the details requested.


I was just thinking if they sent me a new NIP with an extra 28 days to respond that it was significant
When they gave me the extension until the 22nd August I got no written confirmation, no new NIP with new date or any further contact from them.
In all the discussions and calls they seemed happy I was trying to solve this


QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 17:10) *
A summons (or Scottish equiv.) will be raised and sent to you. As stated above, proceedings must be commenced within 6 months of the commission of the offence. The summons may arrive a short time after the 6 month time period.


OK, wasn't sure which was the actual cut off, proceedings or actual court date.
So it is unlikely to run out of time then really.

Thanks
Jlc
Do you know if the new keeper has provided their details to the DVLA? They might not have...

Have you had confirmation you are no longer the keeper?
jcb
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 17:21) *
Any s172 occurs once the time given to respond (28 days) so the underlying offence may be around 5 months ago they have at least another 2 months to commence proceedings.

I can understand why you won't have details of the person you sold the car to but I'm surprised you can't pin the date down.


not ideal, but I didnt expect to have to provide them when we all send the details to the DVLA to look after

to compound matter this year alone I have personally owned:
An Audi Allroad (my wife's)
An Audi S4 sold Feb/Mar
An Audi A3 sold May (the issue)
An audi A6 bought May/Sold October
An Audi Allroad bought aug/Sep
A Subaru Justy bought aug/Sep

Up until last week I had three cars on the go.

I can pin the date down to a period, but am pretty sure its the same week of the camera offence.
What I am certain of it is is absolutely NOT the date the DVLA have on file, I was picking up the A6 that day outside Edinburgh

QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 17:24) *
Do you know if the new keeper has provided their details to the DVLA? They might not have...

Have you had confirmation you are no longer the keeper?



I spoke to the DVLA today and they said they could send me the yellow portion until they realised that I didnt send it, the other guy did.
He couldn't tell me if the contact details were there but I am guessing the trade element they must be

They confirmed I am not the keeper as of the 31st of May.
I know that, because I sold it well before that
Gan
Is it too late for the OP to name himself as driver but without signing the form ?

He couldn't be prosecuted for the speeding and, by the time, the police have argued about the absence of the signature, the S172 could be close to time-out

It couldn't leave him in a position much worse than he is now
peterguk
QUOTE (Gan @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 18:09) *
Is it too late for the OP to name himself as driver but without signing the form?


He can submit it, but the prosecution have no reason to accept it. As far as they're concerned he's already, on the face of it, guilty of FtF. Accepting an unsigned form is just complicating matters.
southpaw82
What information did you give the police? Did you give as much detail as you could about the possible drivers?
jcb
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 19:09) *
What information did you give the police? Did you give as much detail as you could about the possible drivers?



Well I am not sure the person I have been dealing with is an actual policeman but yes.
Initially I expaliend I thought the car was sold around that time. It was either me or the buyer
They wrote back saying I was still on the insurance regsiter at that time (not relevant) and that the car had transition onto the dealer resigter between the time of the NIP and the time of the letter
I then explained the situation as best I could, explained that I don't have any of the info as I dont have the car or the V5, explained I am concerned that I was not the driver, asked his advice, explained I had spoken to the DVLA and they said only in writing and only after 6-8 weeks

Only when the DVLA wrote back was I made aware the date they have can't be the correct date (see above)

At no point have I refused to give any information, I have been trying to find the person who acquired the vehicle and the date of transfer in futility so I could answer the question honestly
its only today's letter that has drawn my attention to the fact I apparently have 9 points so now I appear to be screwed either way
Jlc
The problem you have is that you can't show you weren't the keeper at the time of the offence. The DVLA have the keeper change after the date?
jcb
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 20:00) *
The problem you have is that you can't show you weren't the keeper at the time of the offence. The DVLA have the keeper change after the date?



I know, but I only discovered that after asking the DVLA the question and finding out they can't supply me with any of the info (new keeper's details, copy of V5 submission)
But the date they have is wrong, which surely gives me some grounds for requesting more info to clarify the real date.

we have jumped from "OK here's an extension, we'll come back to you".... to ....."over to the police for fail to supply"

I have genuinely been chasing them for 3-4 weeks to find out what I was supposed to do.

Or do they just expect that people will admit to one offence without all the info under threat of court action over another offence?

Oh wait...they do...

peterguk
QUOTE (jcb @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 20:11) *
But the date they have is wrong, which surely gives me some grounds for requesting more info to clarify the real date


The date they have is the one they've been given. Presumably by the buyer, and quite possibly a deliberate, incorrect date after the offence date to show you still as RK.

Your problem is whilst you can shout and protest, you didn't inform DVLA yourself, as legally required to do so, don't know when sale took place, don't know who you sold car to.

So DVLA have nothing at all from the seller, and a date and new keeper details from buyer. What are they meant to do????
Atomic Tomato
QUOTE (jcb @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 17:18) *
No-one cancels an insurance policy between cars


They should if they have any sense!

Pepipoo 93078

RAC Forum
MyronAub
QUOTE (jcb @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 16:32) *
I can pin the date down to a period, but am pretty sure its the same week of the camera offence.


What did you do with the presumably significant amount of cash you received for the car? Bank it? Spend it? That might give you some pointers to a more accurate date for when the sale took place?
jcb

QUOTE (Atomic Tomato @ Sat, 15 Oct 2016 - 10:24) *
QUOTE (jcb @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 17:18) *
No-one cancels an insurance policy between cars


They should if they have any sense!

Pepipoo 93078

RAC Forum


Why?
And lose 10m NCD for no reason?
there is no legal requirement to do so and there are numerous admin and financial reasons to change vehicle NOT policy especially when the gap is a matter of days or a week or so



QUOTE (MyronAub @ Sat, 15 Oct 2016 - 12:15) *
QUOTE (jcb @ Fri, 14 Oct 2016 - 16:32) *
I can pin the date down to a period, but am pretty sure its the same week of the camera offence.


What did you do with the presumably significant amount of cash you received for the car? Bank it? Spend it? That might give you some pointers to a more accurate date for when the sale took place?


an x reg 1.8t Audi A3 that had recently failed its MOT?

£350!
3 kids and a wife that wouldn't even show up on the fridge shelf!

I think I may have found the buyer through deleted messages from gumtree
been sifting through archives for 48 hours

fingers crossed
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.