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Grant777
In desperate need for advice. I received two speeding tickets (traveling 36 and 39mph) within 3 days of each other on the stretch of road near Manor Gardens on Gunnersbury Avenue. The tickets were for 19th and 22nd may. The offence was for the temporary 30mph speed limit and prohibition of traffic act 2016. I have driven this route for 8 years , the last 3 years from outside of London as we moved. I have never seen any warning of a reduction of speed, and have only noticed by going back and taking a look there was a small 30mph sign in blue which I must have missed having always driven 40mph. I rejected the offer of fines and points as I don't think this is fair and today have received the court summons. I am unsure whether I have done the right thing as I couldn't afford those points on my licence as I drive about 5 hrs a day. This also came during the birth of our daughter so didn't put much thought into whether I could win a non guilty plea case or if I should plead guilty and try to get less points on my licence?? What are your thoughts on my situation?
southpaw82
Now you're going to court the number of points will be the same whether you plead guilty or are found guilty after a trial.

If you plead guilty you will receive a discount of 1/3 off the fines, face costs of around £85, and a surcharge (10% of each fine, minimum £30, maximum £170).

If you are found guilty after a trial then no discount on the fines and costs will be much higher (~£600).

You say there were no 30 mph signs. Can you prove that?

I have no idea what the prohibition of traffic act 2016" is - I suspect you've made a mistake.
Grant777
There was a small blue 30mph sign before the camera when I checked that week, I have this on video. Now there are big painted 30mph signs on the road which you can't miss.

The Fine says it's on contravention of a temporary maximum speed restriction imposed by a local traffic order, namely The A406 GLA road (Gunnersbury avenue, london borough if Hounslow) (temporary 30mph speed limit and prohibition of traffic) order 2016.

So if I plead guilty but asked them to take into consideration the 2 fines and that the signs weren't clear and I have driven this route for 8 years they would not reduce the points? Would the fine still be the £100 each they offered at the beginning?
peterguk
Search the forum for "Gunnersbury Avenue". There have been several threads re. that location.

BTW, MPH roundels painted on the road have no legal status. (except IIRC in the New Forest).
Jlc
QUOTE (Grant777 @ Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 22:02) *
So if I plead guilty but asked them to take into consideration the 2 fines and that the signs weren't clear and I have driven this route for 8 years they would not reduce the points? Would the fine still be the £100 each they offered at the beginning?

No, the fine is income related along with costs.

Try the calc:



Which camera were you caught by? There are 30 and 40mph stretches with cameras.
NewJudge
And if you are convicted you cannot have fewer than three points imposed for each offence.
Grant777
It was a 30 mph camera which had previously been a 40mph for years! So basically there is nothing i can do about the second fine which I received after getting the the first fine notice? Obviously I was aware of the speed change then but it was too late! Sounds like I should have just accepted the points but it seems so unfair to change the speed of a road without proper identifiable signage.
Jlc
This location features regularly - I don't believe the signage is 'legally' deficient but definitely catches people out.

If you're going to plead not guilty then you will rock solid defence of which camera and any deficient signage. Maintaining a not guilty plea at court will see costs of over £600 alone.

When you say second - so you mean you were caught before receiving the 1st NIP?
Grant777
Yes I received the first fine and then I was caught again same spot by the time it had reached me by post. I don't know how I didn't manage to get more fines as the first the took a week to arrive! I am just very confused how I have driven this road 5 days a week for 8 years at 40mph and then suddenly it changes with no warning!
Jlc
You need to be sure of which camera caught you and what the signage is for it. If it's clearly marked as a 40 then you appear to have a very good case. But before you plead not guilty you need this confirmed and documented.

Enforcement doesn't start until 35mph so perhaps that's a factor.

There's guidance for 'new' 30 limits but is not legally required. Special signs should be put up for at least 6 months advising of the change.

Also, contact the council for the traffic regulation order (TRO) - this is the legal document that sets/changes the limit.

It's also possible the camera has been previously dormant.
Logician
It has been a 30 limit on the roundabout and some way up Gunnersbury Avenue for about a year now. The camera in the 30 limit is going North and is HERE. Coming off the roundabout there are a pair of full size 30 signs acting as repeaters HERE. They were there is September 2015 as shown HERE. Unless you can show that there is something wrong with the TRO you really have no defence as the signage is fully compliant.
Grant777
Thanks for your information, I can see where I have gone wrong now. I come off the A4 at larch drive not at the roundabout but I can see a pair of 30's towards the bottom on Google maps which I must have dismissed as the speed of the slip road which has always been 30. There are no repeater signs after that on the A406 and just that small blue 30 before the camera and a big red 40 just after. I have driven this route everyday (apart from holidays) for 8 years and I drive 800miles a week. I really think they should have made it clearer with a change of speed sign or something but I guess that they just do bare minimum. I'm guessing there is nothing I can do to try and reduce the points and get them to review the two court hearings as one. I have 3 points on my licence from a couple of years ago, my mistake I had no problem with that ticket, we were on holiday and lost! I need to drive to get to work and can't afford 9 points on my licence (insurance to high) My wife is on maternity leave with out 4 month old and I'm the only one earning. I'm starting to think I should have just paid the tickets, just felt it to be unfair!
Logician
have you done a speed awareness course in the last three years? Both offence are eligible for a course so it seems odd you have not been offered one unless you have already done one. You would have got 3 points for each offence from the fixed penalties, and you will not get any more in court so going to court has cost you money but no more points, if that is any consolation.
Grant777
Will I need to go to court twice? So there is absolutely no chance of them giving me less then 6 points altogether no matter what I tell them?
Jlc
QUOTE (Grant777 @ Thu, 13 Oct 2016 - 10:50) *
Will I need to go to court twice? So there is absolutely no chance of them giving me less then 6 points altogether no matter what I tell them?

Yes and yes. (Realistically)

However, for those excesses they would accept a postal plea.
Grant777
Does it look better to go to court or will they look more favourably if I just plead guilty by post? Is there any chance of them offering the original 3points and £100 or definitely a heavier fine?
Jlc
QUOTE (Grant777 @ Thu, 13 Oct 2016 - 14:05) *
Does it look better to go to court or will they look more favourably if I just plead guilty by post? Is there any chance of them offering the original 3points and £100 or definitely a heavier fine?

For that excess it isn't going to make a lot of difference.

As you 'actively' rejected the fixed penalty then it will cost more. (It wasn't 'administrative issues')

For a guilty plea you'll get a 33% discount, so the fine will be 33% of weekly relevant earnings, costs of £85 and surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30) - each. 3 points each.
The Rookie
While it may be looked at more favourably going to court, it won't usually make enough of a difference to make it worthwhile, in fact you are likely to be sent a 'Single Justice Procedure Notice' where you can't attend unless you actually opt to.

It will most definitely be a heavier fine.
Grant777
Hi, just getting to filling out the forms, was involved in a car accident (not my fault), it doesn't rain...just pours!!! I just wanted to find out when im writing the supporting letter should I reference the other court summons as obviously both letters will be identical?

I'm not sure if it will wash but i was just going to say the truth that when I received the fines I panicked, I drive this road everyday for 8 years and couldn't understand what had happened in hindsight after revisiting the route there had been a change of speed which I had not seen. I was driving under the limit of the 40mph it had always been previously. Should I mention an impending baby distracting my concentration or will that make it worse?
peterguk
QUOTE (Grant777 @ Wed, 19 Oct 2016 - 10:16) *
Should I mention an impending baby distracting my concentration or will that make it worse?


I would not be adding that i wasn't concentrating on driving!
The Rookie
I'd stick to the fact it was a moment of inattention and you failed to spot the reduction in the limit, that you deeply regret your actions and would not intentionally speed.

Almost nothing you say will make it better, much you can say can make it worse.
Logician
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 19 Oct 2016 - 10:45) *
I'd stick to the fact it was a moment of inattention and you failed to spot the reduction in the limit, that you deeply regret your actions and would not intentionally speed. Almost nothing you say will make it better, much you can say can make it worse.


+1 It is really going to make no difference at all.

Grant777
Thanks for all your advice. It is what it is and I shall just tell the truth.

One last thing, who do I address the letter too?
Logician
QUOTE (Grant777 @ Wed, 19 Oct 2016 - 13:29) *
Thanks for all your advice. It is what it is and I shall just tell the truth. One last thing, who do I address the letter too?


Have you not got a form inviting you to plead by post, and including a space for mitigation? If so just use that.

Grant777
I definitely don't need to send photocopies of my tax return and bills only I keep reading conflicting advice?
peterguk
QUOTE (Grant777 @ Wed, 19 Oct 2016 - 22:29) *
I definitely don't need to send photocopies of my tax return and bills only I keep reading conflicting advice?


No one here has told you to send photocopies of tax return and bills.
Grant777
Should I send both summons in the same envelope with driving licence?

Sorry advice was through my googling!
The Rookie
You may as well send them in the same envelope as it's the only way to send the licence in responce to both!
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