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vanman84
I have a work van that I am the insured for. Ive been away for months an just got back to two letters from the police. One was a letter tellin me the van was doing 37 in a 30 zone. It couldve bin me, but the van is insured any driver. It was just before I went away. The letters dated 1 mar (the week I went). After that is a NIP dated 29 mar. After that nothin. No court papers or even a date.
I dont no what to do now. Somebody told me if I dont get told of a date in 6 months I wont get one. Is this true? Should I say anythin or return the forms after all this time?
Jlc
They do have 6 months to start proceedings. However, the offence they will be pursing will be 'failing to furnish driver details'. This occurs 28 days after the request is made and can be well after the underlying speeding offence.

I suspect you will have a court summons/requisition on the way shortly.

A defence to this charge could be difficult even if you've been away and have not put in place a way of receiving mail. They may 'dual list' the charges (that is the failing to furnish and the speeding) which may give you an option to drop the more serious charge. Failing to furnish (s172) carries 6 points and a large fine. Stating you weren't driving is not a defence to this charge.

You can return the form now but the offence has already occurred but it might be argued that you have supplied the information as soon as reasonably practicable. You may wish to google Whiteside v DPP.
BaggieBoy
You say it's a work van but are you registered keeper?
vanman84
Its not in my name but the insurance is. I guess thats how they wrote to me.

"I suspect you will have a court summons/requisition on the way shortly."

This was 6 months ago. Will there still be a summons? For not sendin the form back?
Jlc
The 6 months may have expired for the speeding but the s172 offence will have occurred later as detailed above. What date was the first request made?
vanman84
It was 1 mar
andy_foster
QUOTE (vanman84 @ Fri, 7 Oct 2016 - 21:15) *
Somebody told me if I dont get told of a date in 6 months I wont get one. Is this true?


No, it is not true.

QUOTE
Should I say anythin or return the forms after all this time?


Burying your head in the sand will not make it go away. The defence of it not being reasonably practicable to provide the required information within the 28 days requires it to be provided as soon as is reasonably practicable afterwards.

However, depending on whether or not it would have been reasonably practicable to ensure that you were made aware of such notices (whether there was there somebody that you could or should have asked to open your mail while you were away), you may or may not otherwise have a defence.

If you are likely to have a defence to the s. 172 if you provide the information as soon as is reasonably practicable, then you should do so.

However, if you are not likely to have a defence to the s. 172, I would be wary of naming myself as the driver without first speaking to the CTO and getting an assurance that I would not then be prosecuted for both the s. 172 and the speedin



QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 7 Oct 2016 - 21:50) *
They do have 6 months to start proceedings. However, the offence they will be pursing will be 'failing to furnish driver details'. This occurs 28 days after the request is made and can be well after the underlying speeding offence.


Is is perhaps helpful to add that starting proceedings is not the same thing as the OP receiving a summons. Depending on how the proceedings are instigated, it can often be 2-3 weeks from the date the proceedings are instigated, before the relevant papers are served on the OP.

QUOTE
This was 6 months ago. Will there still be a summons? For not sendin the form back?


We know. Yes. Yes.
Logician
The first NIP would have gone to the registered keeper of the van, which could be a leasing company, who would name the lessee, presumably your employer, who would name you. If they get no name out of that process, then the police might start looking at who was insured to drive it. You would expect your employer or whoever leases the van to let you know the police were interested in the offence. Anyway, after a long delay you now have a letter. The s.172 offence would occur 28 days after you failed to reply to the NIP dated 29 March, which I make 27 April. They therefore need to start proceedings against you by 27 October, and if they leave it to the last minute you might not hear until a few weeks into November.

It makes little odds whether you return the forms now or not, it is too late to pursue the speeding charge.

andy_foster
QUOTE (vanman84 @ Fri, 7 Oct 2016 - 23:11) *
It was 1 mar


A notice posted by first class post on March 1st would be deemed/presumed served on 3rd March and any s. 172 offence would be committed on 30th March.
Any proceedings would have to be instigated by 30th September. They are usually instigated with at most a few days to spare - often on the last day. I would expect the summons or postal requisition to be served some time in the next 2 weeks.
Jlc
It appears the speeding has 'timed out' - so unless the paperwork is on the way and was initiated before the 6 months then copping both offences doesn't seem to be likely? (It is possible to commit 2 offended and get 9 points)

Although when was the alleged speeding? Some time in Feb?
andy_foster
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 7 Oct 2016 - 23:21) *
The s.172 offence would occur 28 days after you failed to reply to the NIP dated 29 March, which I make 27 April. They therefore need to start proceedings against you by 27 October, and if they leave it to the last minute you might not hear until a few weeks into November.


Whilst the OP has not provided the information in the clearest manner, it would seem that he has received a NIP/s. 172 issued on March 1st and a reminder issued on March 29th. The reminder cannot extend the date of the offence.

QUOTE
It makes little odds whether you return the forms now or not, it is too late to pursue the speeding charge.


Good point.
The 6 months for the speeding would have expired some time ago, and it seems relatively safe to assume that he has not been charged with that offence.
peterguk
Can you explain:

Where you've been "away"?

Assuming your employer named you, why did they give your details knowing you would be away and unable to respond to the request?

Were you the keeper of the van at the time, in other words, did you take the vn home at night?
vanman84
So should I say nowt an see if I get court papers soon? How long should I wait?
Logician
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Fri, 7 Oct 2016 - 23:29) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 7 Oct 2016 - 23:21) *
The s.172 offence would occur 28 days after you failed to reply to the NIP dated 29 March, which I make 27 April. They therefore need to start proceedings against you by 27 October, and if they leave it to the last minute you might not hear until a few weeks into November.
Whilst the OP has not provided the information in the clearest manner, it would seem that he has received a NIP/s. 172 issued on March 1st and a reminder issued on March 29th. The reminder cannot extend the date of the offence.


I read it that the March 1st letter was something other than a NIP/s.172 since he distinguished that from the NIP of 29 March, but your reading makes more sense.

vanman84
To clear it up the NIP was 1 mar. A reminder letter is dated 29 mar. Theres bin nothing since. So will I hear about the failure to send the form back?
peterguk
OP, see my questions post 12.
vanman84
I was travelling in the UK. The vans registered in my company name. I am self employed. Dont see what thats got to do with if I send the form back or dont say anythin just wait.
Jlc
Without knowing the full details I think you'll struggle with a defence unless you could convince the bench you could not put something in place to handle the post.

If you respond now then that may enhance the possibility of the statutory defence about 'responding as soon as reasonably practicable' but that is closely related to the mail handling issue.

As the underlying speeding appears to have timed out and assuming they didn't commence proceedings within the 6 months then it seems the speeding cannot be prosecuted regardless whether they know the driver or not.

But at the moment you don't have a summons...
peterguk
QUOTE (vanman84 @ Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 10:36) *
I was travelling in the UK. The vans registered in my company name. I am self employed. Dont see what thats got to do with if I send the form back or dont say anythin just wait.


It has a lot to do with it!

If your employer had been at fault, you could have had a strong defence.

If you'd been in hospital following a serious accident, you could have had a strong defence.

But now we know it seems only one person is at fault, and your defence is week at best.
vanman84
Does the failure to return the form offense have a cut off date like the speeding?
southpaw82
Yes it does, six months. Is the "form" addressed to you personally or to your company?
Jlc
Yes, but you have 28 days to respond to the s172 request and any offence doesn't occur until that time runs out. (Which is why the date of the alleged speeding isn't relevant)
andy_foster
QUOTE (vanman84 @ Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 11:32) *
Does the failure to return the form offense have a cut off date like the speeding?


Yes, as has already been explained to you in this thread.
vanman84
Sorry is there a cut off for doing me for the fail to return the form? If so when would this be?
peterguk
QUOTE (vanman84 @ Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 18:09) *
Sorry is there a cut off for doing me for the fail to return the form? If so when would this be?


You've already ben given the answer.

You had 28 days to respond to the S.172 request. The offence is committed if the information is not supplied within the 28 days.
southpaw82
QUOTE (vanman84 @ Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 18:09) *
Sorry is there a cut off for doing me for the fail to return the form? If so when would this be?

If you don't respond within 28 days you commit an offence. You're well past that point, so absent any defence you are guilty. It is a defence if you supply the information as soon as practicable. If now is the first opportunity you have had to respond then it may be as soon as practicable (but then again, may not be depending on how a court views your reasons for not responding earlier).
vanman84
What I want to no is the cut off time for them to do me for the failure. I no I am past the time for returnin the form. If they dont do me in 6 months will they ever? Same as the speeding? Or is any time at all they can do me? So is there a time limit or is it whenever with no limit?
peterguk
QUOTE (vanman84 @ Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 20:02) *
What I want to no is the cut off time for them to do me for the failure. I no I am past the time for returnin the form. If they dont do me in 6 months will they ever? Same as the speeding? Or is any time at all they can do me? So is there a time limit or is it whenever with no limit?


Geez, this is hard work.

Speeding - 6 months from date of offence.

FtF - 6 months from date of offence which is 28 days after you received the S.172. Since none of us, or you, were at your home when it was delivered, none of us, or you can determine the exact date.

It is quite normal for a summons to arrive some weeks after the 6 months.

As already asked, but ignored, was the NIP in your own name or a business name?
vanman84
My own name same as the insurance. Why is irt hard work? You can work out the 6 months from the NIP so why not the fail to return? If its 6 months its end of oct. Thats what I wanted to no. Thanks.
southpaw82
It's hard work because you've been told the answer numerous times but keep asking.
peterguk
QUOTE (vanman84 @ Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 20:29) *
You can work out the 6 months from the NIP so why not the fail to return?


As i said, none of us know when it was delivered as none of us were present when it was delivered, so none of us know what date to add 6 months to.
vanman84
Ahhhh I get it now. I thought it was from the date not when it was delivered. The only dates I have is 1 mar for the nip an 29 mar for the reminder. Its true nobody nos when it was delivered so I thought it would have bin from the dates on the page.
southpaw82
If the form was posted on 1 March it is presumed to be served two business days later (3 March in this case). You had 28 days from that date to respond.
vanman84
Understood. So its 6 months from 31 mar? For both offenses? Confused again!
peterguk
QUOTE (vanman84 @ Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 22:31) *
Understood. So its 6 months from 31 mar? For both offenses? Confused again!


Nooooooooooooooo! ^bangs head^

Speeding is 6 months from date of speeding allegation.
southpaw82
QUOTE (vanman84 @ Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 22:31) *
Understood. So its 6 months from 31 mar? For both offenses? Confused again!

Speeding: 6 months from whatever date you broke the speed limit.

Failure to respond: 6 months from the date you should have responded by.
vanman84
Got it! Thanks! So that could have past then. Am l right?
andy_foster
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 20:32) *
As i said, none of us know when it was delivered as none of us were present when it was delivered, so none of us know what date to add 6 months to.


So, apparently both the OP and you couldn't be bothered to read my post which addressed that issue.
peterguk
QUOTE (vanman84 @ Sun, 9 Oct 2016 - 00:34) *
Got it! Thanks! So that could have past then. Am l right?


What could have passed?

As has already been posted by AF, it's likely the FtF timed out 30th September.

HOWEVER

It is not unusual for summons to arrive a few weeks after the time out date so you need to watch the post for a few more weeks yet.
Fredaf
Well if you haven't replied you are guilty but as said above you may have a defence.

If you could not get the answer to the police as soon as reasonably practical that is a defence but it does rely on you providing the name of the driver.

If you haven't yet provided the name you can't use that defence...but wait!

You could perhaps say it wasn't reasonably practical to supply the name of the driver because you didn't understand you had to.

Show them this thread, I'm sure it would be convincing.
vanman84
I think I will wait and see then. Thanks for your help.
Jlc
I think the sarcasm was lost on you.
Churchmouse
Interesting defence...

--Churchmouse
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