I have just received a NIP for doing 58mph in a 50mph zone. I *think* it might be out of date - can anyone shed any light?
Offence date was 30/03/06. NIP was prepared on 11/04/06 but franking mark shows that it was franked on the 12/04/06, which was the 14th day including the day of the offence or the 13th day excluding it (don't know which applies). The NIP didn't turn up until this morning (18/04/06), which is the 20th (or 19th) day. It is a privately-owned car and they sent it to the right address - none of the stuff about difficulty in tracking down the owner applies here, I don't think.
So there are a few things here. Firstly, did they send it in time? Secondly, was it reasonable to expect it to reach me within the required time frame given that they sent it on the Wednesday before Easter? Thirdly, is this worth fighting, given that I'm currently trying to write my thesis and the last thing I need is a court appearance?
Thanks everyone. This site is really helpful!
Q
Full Version: NIP too late??
QUOTE (qcake @ Tue, 18 Apr 2006 - 11:07) 
I have just received a NIP for doing 58mph in a 50mph zone. I *think* it might be out of date - can anyone shed any light?
Offence date was 30/03/06. NIP was prepared on 11/04/06 but franking mark shows that it was franked on the 12/04/06, which was the 14th day including the day of the offence or the 13th day excluding it (don't know which applies). The NIP didn't turn up until this morning (18/04/06), which is the 20th (or 19th) day. It is a privately-owned car and they sent it to the right address - none of the stuff about difficulty in tracking down the owner applies here, I don't think.
So there are a few things here. Firstly, did they send it in time? Secondly, was it reasonable to expect it to reach me within the required time frame given that they sent it on the Wednesday before Easter? Thirdly, is this worth fighting, given that I'm currently trying to write my thesis and the last thing I need is a court appearance?
Thanks everyone. This site is really helpful!
Q
Offence date was 30/03/06. NIP was prepared on 11/04/06 but franking mark shows that it was franked on the 12/04/06, which was the 14th day including the day of the offence or the 13th day excluding it (don't know which applies). The NIP didn't turn up until this morning (18/04/06), which is the 20th (or 19th) day. It is a privately-owned car and they sent it to the right address - none of the stuff about difficulty in tracking down the owner applies here, I don't think.
So there are a few things here. Firstly, did they send it in time? Secondly, was it reasonable to expect it to reach me within the required time frame given that they sent it on the Wednesday before Easter? Thirdly, is this worth fighting, given that I'm currently trying to write my thesis and the last thing I need is a court appearance?
Thanks everyone. This site is really helpful!
Q
Think this one may have timed-out, the NIP needs to be served upon you within 14 days of the date of the alleged offence and the fact a couple of bank holidays were in the intervening period doesn't matter.
Suggest you use the 'RAC letter' to respond to this.
Unless you fancy some fun by nominating yourslef waiting for summons, pleading NG and disclosing the reason at the pre-trial review and walking away with costs that is!
Simon
Unless you fancy some fun by nominating yourslef waiting for summons, pleading NG and disclosing the reason at the pre-trial review and walking away with costs that is!
Simon
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 18 Apr 2006 - 12:15)
Suggest you use the 'RAC letter' to respond to this.
Unless you fancy some fun by nominating yourslef waiting for summons, pleading NG and disclosing the reason at the pre-trial review and walking away with costs that is!
Simon
Unless you fancy some fun by nominating yourslef waiting for summons, pleading NG and disclosing the reason at the pre-trial review and walking away with costs that is!
Simon
Not sure about fun. Fun sounds un-fun to me.
RAC letter has been written and will be sent once I've spoken to my lawyer buddy this afternoon. I did ring the ticket office and asked about the 14 day rule; rude woman gleefully told me that if the NIP left them on the 13th day (which it did, if you leave out the day of the offence), then it's valid and that it isn't their fault if it got delayed in the post. Worryingly, I can see where she's coming from and it isn't clear to me whether the law says 14 days *including* or *excluding* the day of the offence, or whether there is statutory allowance for postal delays. The FAQ that came with the NIP says that "the law states that first class post is an acceptable method for the serving of a Notice of Intended Prosecution, with the expectation of next day delivery".
Uhh??!? (that was my mid-thesis "confused" sound).
More light! Shed more light!
Cheers
QUOTE (Schiester Scammers)
I did ring the ticket office and asked about the 14 day rule; rude woman gleefully told me that if the NIP left them on the 13th day (which it did, if you leave out the day of the offence), then it's valid and that it isn't their fault if it got delayed in the post.
There are few things in life that upset me more than people who lie to you when they are in positions where they have an obligation to tell you the truth.
As it happens, they do have to make allowances for when a NIP is posted. Simply sticking it in the postbox on day 13 (just before Easter) is, frankly, not good enough.
Send you RAC letter and ignore the ignorant scammer operative. We'll give you advice on how to conduct your defence. You've a very, very good case for getting this thrown out.
Oh, one other thing: change the line below to the amended one at the bottom.
"Including the day of the alleged offence, this was **th day from the date detailed in your Notice".
Including the day of the alleged offence, this was **th day from the date of postage on your Notice".
QUOTE (S.7 Interpretation Act 1978)
7 References to service by post
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
QUOTE (S.1 Road Traffic Offender Act 1988)
1 Requirement of warning etc of prosecutions for certain offences
(1) Subject to section 2 of this Act, [a person shall not be convicted of an offence to which this section applies unless]—
(a) he was warned at the time the offence was committed that the question of prosecuting him for some one or other of the offences to which this section applies would be taken into consideration, or
(b ) within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a summons (or, in Scotland, a complaint) for the offence was served on him, or
(c ) within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed, was—
(i) in the case of an offence under section 28 or 29 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (cycling offences), served on him,
(ii) in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence.
(1A) A notice required by this section to be served on any person may be served on that person—
(a) by delivering it to him;
(b ) by addressing it to him and leaving it at his last known address; or
(c ) by sending it by registered post, recorded delivery service or first class post addressed to him at his last known address.
(2) A notice shall be deemed for the purposes of subsection (1)(c ) above to have been served on a person if it was sent by registered post or recorded delivery service addressed to him at his last known address, notwithstanding that the notice was returned as undelivered or was for any other reason not received by him.
(3) The requirement of subsection (1) above shall in every case be deemed to have been complied with unless and until the contrary is proved.
(4) Schedule 1 to this Act shows the offences to which this section applies.
(1) Subject to section 2 of this Act, [a person shall not be convicted of an offence to which this section applies unless]—
(a) he was warned at the time the offence was committed that the question of prosecuting him for some one or other of the offences to which this section applies would be taken into consideration, or
(b ) within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a summons (or, in Scotland, a complaint) for the offence was served on him, or
(c ) within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed, was—
(i) in the case of an offence under section 28 or 29 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (cycling offences), served on him,
(ii) in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence.
(1A) A notice required by this section to be served on any person may be served on that person—
(a) by delivering it to him;
(b ) by addressing it to him and leaving it at his last known address; or
(c ) by sending it by registered post, recorded delivery service or first class post addressed to him at his last known address.
(2) A notice shall be deemed for the purposes of subsection (1)(c ) above to have been served on a person if it was sent by registered post or recorded delivery service addressed to him at his last known address, notwithstanding that the notice was returned as undelivered or was for any other reason not received by him.
(3) The requirement of subsection (1) above shall in every case be deemed to have been complied with unless and until the contrary is proved.
(4) Schedule 1 to this Act shows the offences to which this section applies.
N.B. S.1(3) only applies to s.1(1), not s.1(1A).
Hmmm. Bit concerned now.
Lawyer buddy suggested that I just take the hit because in writing back to contest the NIP, I may drag myself in line for court action. I'd rather not have to do that, irrespective of whether I'd get off or not.
If I send the RAC letter to the ticket office and they don't leave it at that, would I automatically have to go to court? Anyone know?
Grrrrr.
Lawyer buddy suggested that I just take the hit because in writing back to contest the NIP, I may drag myself in line for court action. I'd rather not have to do that, irrespective of whether I'd get off or not.
If I send the RAC letter to the ticket office and they don't leave it at that, would I automatically have to go to court? Anyone know?
Grrrrr.
It is the 14th day following the offence, so assuming they posted it on the day of franking (is this a postal rule?) it should have arrived the following day "in the normal course of post".
However, you still have until the 28th day to make your response.
Gareth
However, you still have until the 28th day to make your response.
Gareth
QUOTE (qcake @ Tue, 18 Apr 2006 - 20:37)
Lawyer buddy suggested that I just take the hit because in writing back to contest the NIP, I may drag myself in line for court action.
Eh ? Did your 'buddy' elaborate as to why advising the SCP of a time expired (defective) NIP could result in a court appearance ?QUOTE (qcake @ Tue, 18 Apr 2006 - 20:37)
If I send the RAC letter to the ticket office and they don't leave it at that, would I automatically have to go to court?
Not at all. Primarily, you would only have to go to court if:You failed to provide driver details in accordance with s.172 RTA 1988, or..
You provided driver info but did not accept Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, or...
Your speed was in excess of that which could be dealt with by CoFP, or...
You already have 9 or more points which means you could not accept a CoFP..
What's wrong with sending the RAC letter sooner rather than later and see what they have to say for themselves ? You have 28 days from date of service of the NIP (18.04.2006) to return the S.172 information. Use the time wisely...
Bear in mind that whilst the SCP may lie (albeit maybe unwittingly), bully and coerce, the law needs to be applied to strict standards. If your dates are correct, then these standards appear somewhat lacking in this case..
QUOTE (nemo @ Tue, 18 Apr 2006 - 21:08)
QUOTE (qcake @ Tue, 18 Apr 2006 - 20:37)
Lawyer buddy suggested that I just take the hit because in writing back to contest the NIP, I may drag myself in line for court action.
Eh ? Did your 'buddy' elaborate as to why advising the SCP of a time expired (defective) NIP could result in a court appearance ?He pointed out that, if the police drag their heels with responding to my challenge regarding the 14 day rule and there isn't resolution within 28 days for whatever reason, I would then have to go to court, even if it's to have this thrown out. And there is no statutory precedent for the covering of costs so even with it thrown out, I could end up with a bill of more than £60.
QUOTE (nemo @ Tue, 18 Apr 2006 - 21:08)
QUOTE (qcake @ Tue, 18 Apr 2006 - 20:37)
If I send the RAC letter to the ticket office and they don't leave it at that, would I automatically have to go to court?
Not at all. Primarily, you would only have to go to court if:You failed to provide driver details in accordance with s.172 RTA 1988, or..
You provided driver info but did not accept Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, or...
Your speed was in excess of that which could be dealt with by CoFP, or...
You already have 9 or more points which means you could not accept a CoFP..
What's wrong with sending the RAC letter sooner rather than later and see what they have to say for themselves ? You have 28 days from date of service of the NIP (18.04.2006) to return the S.172 information. Use the time wisely...
Bear in mind that whilst the SCP may lie (albeit maybe unwittingly), bully and coerce, the law needs to be applied to strict standards. If your dates are correct, then these standards appear somewhat lacking in this case..
I suppose I could do. And I do like the idea of tackling the unscrupulous opportunism of it all.
Hmmm....
<shrug> Its called a fightback forum for a reason you know.
QUOTE (qcake)
And there is no statutory precedent for the covering of costs
Was the offence in Scotland?
QUOTE (jeffreyarcher @ Wed, 19 Apr 2006 - 03:33)
QUOTE (qcake)
And there is no statutory precedent for the covering of costs
Was the offence in Scotland?
Nope, Bournemouth actually.
QUOTE (qcake @ Wed, 19 Apr 2006 - 15:04)
QUOTE (jeffreyarcher @ Wed, 19 Apr 2006 - 03:33)
QUOTE (qcake)
And there is no statutory precedent for the covering of costs
Was the offence in Scotland?
Nope, Bournemouth actually.
Well then costs can be recovered
This is sort of what happened to me....for you...NIP issued on day 12 - posted on day 13 and received 'time expired' - me...NIP issued on day 13...no franking mark...received day 15! IMO it is again 'no-no' posting on day 13 in the hope you would receive it the next day ie., Thursday 13th April...the 14th day....when indeed the Royal Mail do not guarantee next day postage and therefore have taken considerably longer to deliver it than the police would have hoped/expected!! The police are aware of the Royal Mail comments on next day delivery and continue to use 1st class post even though their own ACPO guidelines recommend recorded delivery should be used for the initial NIP especially in a case like this.
Good luck and read my post here...
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...13&hl=msbehavin
Good luck and read my post here...
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...13&hl=msbehavin
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