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QashiLondon
hello all

I need some help please.

I have got a blue badge and a parking dispensation from the hospital to park the car while having treatment at the hospital.

However I was having my usual chemo treatment at the hospital I put the car in the disabled bay and went up but was told they shifted my appointment 2 hours (heart rate not stable enough and blood level playing) so I went out and moved the car around a bit to get some liquid inside my system and came back to find the disabled bays have gone and the single yellow line area occupied so I put the car in a pay and display spot (I wasn't aware that this is a green badge area) and went back to have my chemo.

After I finished my session I was too knackered to notice but there was a PCN on my car with my car colour (blonze) being mentioned as (Grey), and a penatly, I noted that and challendged the PCN and now they are holding the ticket to make a decision by the 11th.

Is there good grounds for challlenging based on that error? and also the fact that I have been being injected with medicine at 02:00 while the ticket was issued at 01:59?
and the fact that this is a compassionate case being in such an illness treatment?

thanks in advance.
DancingDad
We need to see the PCN pls.

Most hospitals use private parking contractors, not council enforcement so must question whether this is private or council PCN.
Important as dealing with them requires differing methods and they are not interchangeable.
QashiLondon
thanks ever so much and apologies about the delay I didnt realise someone answred till now, please find it attached.

I can actually get a letter from the hospital that I was having chemo 1 min after the issuing of the PCN and I have a parking dispensation for parking in the single yellow line in that area.
DancingDad
Okay. tis the right forum.
Had you got your BB on display?
You say that you have already challenged?
Got the wording you sent, could we see it pls?
Have they replied?
If so, can we see that?
PASTMYBEST
page 3

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtBHPhdJdppVhFbJaiqU3Wel8IuF
QashiLondon
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 8 Aug 2016 - 23:06) *
Okay. tis the right forum.
Had you got your BB on display?
You say that you have already challenged?
Got the wording you sent, could we see it pls?
Have they replied?
If so, can we see that?


Hello

Yes I am sure I had the badge and a parking dispensation from the hospital on display,
Yes I already challenged it, and here's the wording:

------------------------------------------------------
Challenge Information

Challenge reason

Vehicle had parking dispensation and blue badge displayed clearly.

Also pcn delivered with line crossed over where its number should be.

Also wrong car colour given my car is not grey as pcn says.

Officer must have mistaken it for wrong car.

My car is bronze as registered with dvla whereas as the officer says it's grey!
----------------------------------------------------------

and they haven't replied because they have a huge backlog I rang them and they said they will answer by the 10th of August which is tomorrow.

Thanks all in advance
DancingDad
Okay, wait and see what they reply with.
That may not be tomorrow, could be a few weeks but don't panic, system is on hold until they do reply.

If they decide to exercise discretion, they'll cancel.
If they don't, we have ammunition to fight this further.
So if they reject, just post the reply and we'll see where we can go.

For info.
Car colour is irrelevant, reg number is all that is needed.
Familiarise yourself with Green Zone rules for the future.

What is this dispensation from hospital?
Never heard of such a thing being valid on public roads, only their own property and this seems to be public road?
QashiLondon
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 8 Aug 2016 - 23:22) *


This is excellent however it seems I should have mentioned that I was having the chemo which is time variant depending on a slot being available and the hospital forced me to attend at this time when there was no other option, that would have been an excuse but I unfortunately didn't mention it on the challenge note, is it possible I do an addendum?



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 9 Aug 2016 - 11:28) *
Okay, wait and see what they reply with.
That may not be tomorrow, could be a few weeks but don't panic, system is on hold until they do reply.

If they decide to exercise discretion, they'll cancel.
If they don't, we have ammunition to fight this further.
So if they reject, just post the reply and we'll see where we can go.

For info.
Car colour is irrelevant, reg number is all that is needed.
Familiarise yourself with Green Zone rules for the future.

What is this dispensation from hospital?
Never heard of such a thing being valid on public roads, only their own property and this seems to be public road?



It's a letter from the hospital allowing me to park on single yellow lines around all UCH hospitals, it's official I have it in the car however it's a bit far from me, I will bring it tomorrow, print and attach it here for your reference.

Yesterday I was having treatment at the same hospital (McMillan Cancer Centre) and my appointment was at 03:30, I was seen at 07:20 and having to wait for the pharmacist to dispense the medicines I waited till 08:40pm before I was let go from hospital.
Normaly you have to wait a LOT before you're seen but I don't think the hospital will admit it, but they will gladly give me a letter saying my chemo started at 02:00pm
DancingDad
Okay, dispensation is new to me but would be interested in seeing it.
At the moment, simply wait.
Patience is a virtue smile.gif

By rights, given a BB error in a green zone and assuming first time, they should follow policy and cancel.
If they don't, we can deal with it and plenty of time to include details like the chemo.

Don't forget this but don't worry on it either, concentrate on getting better.
QashiLondon
here it is

At the time there was only 3 spaces available with disabled sign, and all were full as well as the whole street and I had to run for my chemo spot to be honest we patients want to get it over and done with asap and jump when told to go for it.
Normally it's issued only for a day, but since I am getting treatment varying between chemo and radio and oncology nearly daily the hospital gave me a whole month's worth of parking dispensation free
QashiLondon
hello all

It's quite strange but today I received a (notie to owner) asking me to pay the penalty, and offering me the chance to challenge it AGAIN which I did and here's the wording:


Challenge information
Challenge reason
I have already challenged this PCN, and the grounds are that I have been having chemotherapy at the very minute in which the pcn was issued, I am a cancer patient and wasn't aware that the hospital parking dispensation is enough and it was put together with the bluebadge and since it is the first time ever to happen I challenged based on these grounds. Also I can get a letter from the practitioner from the hospital that timing was crucial for my treatment on that particular day, I can get a letter also that my chemotherapy was at 02:00pm on that day.. I am attaching the hospital dispensation but all other documents are available if needed thank you
Supporting evidence
File 161.jpg
File 2bb1.jpg

I told you before that I rang them and they said that it will be processed on the 10th and not to worry now they have waited another 25 days only to start it all over again.

QashiLondon
I rang them again and it turned out they have lost my first appeal ... not too sure what to do, any help please?
I have the email they sent me before in which they said they would answer within 10 days.
hcandersen
Please tell me you haven't sent representations yet?

Post the NTO.
QashiLondon
first thanks for replaying

I don't know what a representation is, I did the challenge as posted before, how do I do a representation?
Also I don't know what's an NTO

Here's what I have

PCN summary
Challenge Information
Challenge reason
I have already challenged this PCN, and the grounds are that I have been having chemotherapy at
the very minute in which the pcn was issued, I am a cancer patient and wasn't aware that the
hospital parking dispensation is enough and it was put together with the bluebadge and since it is
the first time ever to happen I challenged based on these grounds.
Also I can get a letter from the practitioner from the hospital that timing was crucial for my
treatment on that particular day, I can get a letter also that my chemotherapy was at 02:00pm on
that day..
I am attaching the hospital dispensation but all other documents are available if needed
thank you
PCN number CU44927***
Vehicle registration number KF***HR
Relationship to vehicle Registered keeper
Date and time of contravention July 19 2016 at 13:59
Contravention description Parked without payment of the parking charge
Location of contravention HUNTLEY STREET WC1
Outstanding balance £80.00

(as copied from the PDF they sent me in recognition of my challenge)

The notes I attached are exactly the ones I put here on the site, the hospital dispensation and blue badge.

Also ..

I have spoken to them today and they said that they have now received the second challenge, and that they have not received the first one, I have a pdf proving they have received the first one the first time around, but they deny it.
hcandersen
You posted:

It's quite strange but today I received a (notie to owner) asking me to pay the penalty, and offering me the chance to challenge it AG

You said you'd received a Notice to Owner which if you read would advise you that:
As owner you were liable for the penalty;
You could make representations to the authority as to why you should not pay the penalty.

I'm only going on what you posted.

So, what did you do after receiving the NTO - forget telephone calls, they're worthless in this process.

Just to row back:
You do not have a dispensation from the hospital, you have one from Camden Council. You might have it for reasons associated with your hospital treatment, but it is not from the hospital.
As I understand it, the roads mentioned fall within the group of roads which by law are excluded from the Blue Badge exemption - all roads in the City of London, Westminster and some in Camden. Therefore your BB does not exempt you from the restriction of waiting on yellow lines. However, those authorities may and do issue badges of their own and may, as all councils may, issue dispensations to anyone to park on yellow lines.
You have a dispensation which permits you to park as per its terms and conditions. It does not allow you to park anywhere at anytime, irrespective of your hospital appointments.

As you can see, the dispensation is clear and applies to single yellow lines.
You were parked in a pay and display bay and did not pay - which you could have done quite easily.
Irrespective of the dispensation, you hold a Blue Badge booklet which makes it clear that a BB does not exempt you from payment.

I get the impression so far that you thnk that you did not do wrong, but I'm afraid you did.

In a nutshell:
I hold a BB which does not exempt me from parking charges;
I hold a limited scope dispensation from the council which similarly does not exempt me from parking charges.
I parked in a P&D bay and chose not to pay but instead relied on one or both of my badges etc.

Hence why I say do not make reps until we've seen what other arguments could perhaps be used.
QashiLondon
I thank you all for the kind replies, in particular (DancingDad) for his compassionate and kind words.

I have not had response to the challenge and so kept on ringing them every day to request a response and today I received this attached note.

You can put it as a successful case.

Finally a word to Mr/Ms hcanderson

I thank you for your response even though it was very harsh, I never claimed to be in the right, I knew I was wrong, and I read the guidelines published by Camden and based my challenge on that.

Your response was very harsh and to be honest right down unhelpful, I still thank you though.

hcandersen
There is no point in perpetuatng an OP's misconceptions. If this is considered harsh, and it is by some, so be it. But IMO it must be better to be correctly informed than misinformed.

As regards their response, the dispensation was issued by the council not the hospital so their comments are baffling.

But they cancelled the PCN.

Local government works in mysterious ways its wonders to perform.
QashiLondon
dear Mr Anderson (please correct me if I mis-named)

The dispensation is issued by the hospital, I said so and it is the case, even though it says Camden Council on the paper, I actually apply for it in McMilan Cancer Centre (and on one occasion from the main hospital)
For your info also, in order to obtain a dispensation, one has to apply to the hospital admin with a blue badge together with proof of entitlement, which in my case was (chemotherapy treatment timeline) on one occasion and a radiotherapy plan of treatment on the other.
The hospital issues the permits based on the needs of the patient, so it may be for one day only (outpatient daycare) or a whole week, or as in my case a whole month (or months as it happened)

I wasn't perpetuating when I described your valuable help as downright harsh, but rather opted to register it as an opinion that wasn't of much help because that's exactly what it meant for me, if you view the contribution of Mr (PastMyBest) where he posted a link: https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtBHPhdJdppVhFbJaiqU3Wel8IuF it points to his own OneDrive account (I believe) and it's so valuable it actually is the only reason why I went on with the challenge! Camden say clearly in it that they will consider the case when it's a first time offence and when the perpetrator is ignorant of the facts of Green vs Blue zones etc.
The main reason why I commented after the success was that I wish other users of the wonderful forum to benefit from my experienec.

On the other extreme, you said literally: ' forget telephone calls, they're worthless in this process. ' ... in fact I only got a response when I kept ringing them everyday!
Let alone your repitition of the law's hard facts which if taken literally there would be no need for this website in the first place!

I sincerely hope there's no hard feelings in all this, and I really thank you for reading and responding and wish the adminstration to put this topic as a (success story) for others to learn from it.
hcandersen
None at all, but facts are facts.

The permit is issued under the authority of Parking Services. They may have delegated agents to act on their behalf, but the ultimate authority as regards the public highway lies with the local authority, not the NHS. Whether the hospital were acting within the limits of their delegated authority, I wouldn't know.

You parked where you should not have parked, this is also clear. The authority exercised discretion as is their right, but it does not affect your contravention, and it was a contravention - I get the impression that you still do not accept this and have rationalised your actions as being justified. I can't help this, I would only suggest that you do not repeat them expecting the same outcome. Next time pay to park in a P&D parking place.

I hope other readers do not take the wrong message from this case because in many cases the authority will not exercise discretion, neither are they required to. The lesson to be learned is not to exceed the authority of any dispensation unless you wish to take a risk.
QashiLondon
hello all

Thanks for answeing
I have learned that I commited a great error, there's no argument there.
I am not arguing that I didn't, but rather I only showed how I felt, I even (and that's clear from my initial argument) thought the attendant has made an error and booked a grey car whereas mine is bronze!
I apologise if I haven't written that in so many words, but yes I made a mistake.

However there's one issue that really needs tackling, and that's the issue of blue vs green parking zones, and I wish other users to elaborate on this so I will use the thread to do that.

Now, on the bluebadge use guidelnes they say that all the blue badge is usable across the whole country (and perhaps even the world!) to park in (pay and display) bays for unlimited time, and for shared use and residential parking permit bays without restrictions unless otherwise indicated except for certain counties, (City of Westminster, Chlesea, and {part of Camden}) on single yellow lines (unless there's a lowered pavement) and in disabled parking bays . etc All unless otherwise indicated

I do follow that well, however there's one huge problem which I believe is very genuine, and that's related to the process of identifying the green zone in real life.
There's a webpage http://maps.camden.gov.uk/parkingbays/greenbadge.aspx which allows you to check whether a street is actually within the green zone or is a normal street!
there's a system by which Camden identifies subareas which writes on the plates the letters (CA-xx) to identify the Camden subzone but you may find a street which is in CA-AB area for example which is inside the greenzone, while another street in the CA-AB area is not within the green zone.
There's nothing whatsoever that warns you that you're entering or indeed leaving the green zone as the case of the red circle with the letter © inside it which warns you of entering a congestion charge zone, even though this particular issue is of no significance to my case being exempted anyway.

The only way to know whether a street lies in the greenzone or not is to use the above page and even that is not useful as there are streets which lie in both zones such as (Rathbone street) which as you can see is listed on the map as partly inside the zone and yet if you check the website you will see that it all is inside the zone.

Given that most people are not able to check websites during driving especially disabled people, and certainly not in a heavily congested area, don't people have the right to challenge the situation based on the fact that they are not aware of which streets are within the zones and which are not?
Or can't we ask Camden to make it clear by marking bays or streets with warning as to which is which?

I wonder if that's a viable issue, and thanks in advance.
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