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Full Version: Box Junction - Hammersmith - Time incorrect on PCN by 11secs
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martg
This seems to be very similar to another members case

http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/...php/t95983.html

The issue is that the PCN states the contravention occurred at 08:42:00, however, the camera evidence shows

08:42:11 - entered Yellow Box Junction
08:42:15 - stopped in YBJ
08:42:24 - started moving again
08:42:25 - cleared the box (best estimate as the the camera had zoomed in on my car and did not show the edge of the YBJ)

Link to Video evidence:
http://www.viewmypcn.co.uk/Default.aspx?r=...acf2a9637a6354c

I'd like to base my appeal on the fact that at the exact time stated on the PCN "contravention did not occur". Can members confirm if I would have a good chance to have the appeal upheld based on a time difference of 11 secs?

Thanks in advance for any assistance
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (martg @ Thu, 28 Jul 2016 - 12:24) *
This seems to be very similar to another members case

http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/...php/t95983.html

The issue is that the PCN states the contravention occurred at 08:42:00, however, the camera evidence shows

08:42:11 - entered Yellow Box Junction
08:42:15 - stopped in YBJ
08:42:24 - started moving again
08:42:25 - cleared the box (best estimate as the the camera had zoomed in on my car and did not show the edge of the YBJ)

Link to Video evidence:
http://www.viewmypcn.co.uk/Default.aspx?r=...acf2a9637a6354c

I'd like to base my appeal on the fact that at the exact time stated on the PCN "contravention did not occur". Can members confirm if I would have a good chance to have the appeal upheld based on a time difference of 11 secs?

Thanks in advance for any assistance


Traffic seemed to come to a sudden stop and caught out two behind you. Was there any reason for this?
martg
No reason in particular as far as I can remember. Just the usual heavy stop-start traffic for that time in the morning. Do you think the reason would have a bearing on any appeal decision?
John U.K.
I think H&F are hoist by their own petard. Back in 2014, IIRC, when the thread you linked to started, H&F only put hh:mm on their PCNs, not hh:mm:ss . In response to appeals being allowed (not always) that hh:mm always means hh:mm:00, they have taken to printing the seconds on the PCN. In your case this has had the result of proving that at the precise time stated your vehicle was not in, but at some distance from, the YBJ. Therefore you simply make reps along the lines of
As can be clearly seen from your video evidence. at the precise time (08:42:00) on the PCN at which the contravention was alleged to have occurred the vehicle (reg mark ABC123) was not in/no part of the vehicle was in the YBJ. Therefore i look forward to your early cancellation of this PCN.

See what others say. They canot re-issue with a corrected time.
DancingDad
During the minute of 8.42 it would seem that you entered the box, stopped and left the box.
Which would make time cited correct as PCNs do not use seconds.
8.42 means sometime between 8.42.00 to 8.42.59.

Stopped for 9 seconds which makes it unlikely that an adjudicator would accept de minimus.
But at the moment, only thing I can see.

EDit, just read John's post.
If H&F are putting seconds on PCN and have put in anything bar a time that you were stationary, contravention did not occur.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (martg @ Thu, 28 Jul 2016 - 13:19) *
No reason in particular as far as I can remember. Just the usual heavy stop-start traffic for that time in the morning. Do you think the reason would have a bearing on any appeal decision?


Very much, if you were in a position where you could not reasonably anticipate you would have to stop. I would argue that the traffic came to a sudden unexpected stop
evidenced by the fact that two cars behind you were also in the same situation plus the time thing. as John points out the PCN includes seconds and you were not in
contravention at that time
martg
Thanks everyone for taking the time to read and reply to my query.
I'll lodge an appeal and report back the result
Thanks again
martg
Update

I received the results of the appeal yesterday, which was rejected. For background here is the letter I sent (thanks to all for the inspiration and pointers for the text).....

Original PCN


"I wish to submit this letter as representation for rejection of the Penalty Charge Notice referenced above.
The alleged traffic contravention referred to on the PCN is “31-Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited”.
I have viewed the photographic and video evidence made available to me on the Hammersmith and Fulham website and would like to make the following point
1. The PCN states that the contravention took place on 14/07/2016 at 08:42:00, however as can be clearly seen from the video evidence, at that precise time (08:42:00) which the contravention was alleged to have occurred the vehicle (reg mark SA03 XDW) was not in/no part of the vehicle was in the Yellow Box Junction. The video evidence clearly shows that the vehicle did not enter the Box junction until 08:42:11.

The PCN has been adjudged in at least 2 separate PATAS judgments to be defective and unenforceable:
Case 2140214193:
“This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited at 20:03:02…
His vehicle did not enter the box and stop until 20:03:21. It follows that the alleged contravention did not occur.”

Case 2140254631:
"….. In addition … the recording shows that contravention actually occurred at 08.01.35, whereas the time given in the PCN is 08.02.
By 08.02 the vehicle had passed the alleged contravention site, and was stationary at the next junction.
As this is a moving traffic alleged contravention there is a need for complete accuracy as to time and location which is not satisfied on this occasion.
The PCN should not stand on this ground also. The appeal is allowed."

Due to the points made above, I strongly believe that the PCN should be cancelled and look forward to your confirmation of this cancellation at your earliest opportunity."

The reply I got from Hammersmith & Fulham is below....










Their refusal to reject the appeal was that the time on the contravention occurs at (08:42), whereas the time on the original PCN was listed in hh:mm:ss (08:42:00). They make no mention or refer to the 2 PATAs listed as examples of why the appeal should be upheld in their response.

Could I ask your opinion on what members recommend I should do at this point? Based on the results of the 2 PATAs (and H&F ignoring my appeal) would I have a chance if I appeal to the traffic adjudicators for a cancellation of the PCN based on H&F not getting their times correct?
John U.K.
Not sure how you embedded your docs but too small to read properly.
Try this

As usual, for best advice please post up PCN (both sides)

Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:
Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image, and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.
Redact/obscure personal details, PCN no. Reg No.

Also post up a GSV (Google Street View) link to the location.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.
martg
Hi John, yes I used tinypic as in the faq but it came out too small. I'll tweak the scan and try again ...fingers crossed
John U.K.
QUOTE (martg @ Mon, 22 Aug 2016 - 15:20) *
Hi John, yes I used tinypic as in the faq but it came out too small. I'll tweak the scan and try again ...fingers crossed


I wonder if you used the right link from the list to the left of the image in Tinypic?

Choose the one for forums. Make sure you copy and paste the entire link, beginning and ending with (IMG) ... (/IMG)

They are actually square brackets [ ]
martg
All done. I tried to be clever and "stitch" all the images to make 1 big file. tinypic shrunk it down too much to make it unreadable. I've now uploaded the individual files and all is good.
John U.K.
It will be your choice as to whether to fight on.

In replying, he has carefully avoided quoting the time on the PCN.
He has failed to supply a photo of where your car was at the time on the PCN.
He has not considered your point about seconds.

If you go to tribunal, the Adj will see the video.
If you want to go, you can register appeal and write "full submission to follow" in Box 6. Opt for personal hearing.
It must show that that at 08:42:00 you had not entered the box.

Aee what others say... I'm still trying to get away on holiday smile.gif
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