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Full Version: Do I fight PCN/bailiff after forgetting to update logbook/DVLA?
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
Lawro
Hi,

I appreciate there are a lot of similar cases but after sifting through the forums I couldn't find anything that could fully help me.

My main query, as the topic suggests, is whether or not I fill in the PE2 & PE3 forms and try to fight the bailiffs charges.

So, I moved house on 31/10/15 and with everything going on, managed to update most of my details but overlooked my V5 logbook. I picked up my post last week from my previous address and doing a string of letters now resulting in a £512 debt for a bus lane camera ticket in Cox Lane, Chessington, on the 30/01/16. The first couple of letters went to my old address and on the 16/03/16 they sent out the Order of recovery of unpaid penalty charge. In the meantime I had notified the DVLA of my new address on the 12/03/16, eventually receiving the new log book on the 27/04/16. The first Notice of Enforcement was sent out on the 13/06/16, followed by another notice on the 30/06/16, stating an officer had visited and now the debt was £512.

I've had a look about and was informed, by a rude lady, at Kingston council that it's my own fault and that not updating my logbook also carries a £1000 fine.

Ok, I accept I was stupid and didn't update my logbook but my argument would be that I had updated the logbook before it was referred to the debt collectors but they didn't check. After scouring these boards I'm getting the impression that they probably aren't by law required to check again, only at the time of the contravention, and would rather let the fine rack up. I would be happy (well, slightly relieved) to pay the £202 fine as when it left the council, and get the bailiffs fees removed.

Do I have a leg to stand on? :/

Any help much appreciated..
DancingDad
It will do no harm to fill in the forms and cost nothing to send.
Once TEC get them, enforcement is on hold while council get chance to contest the Out of Time.
If they do (which is usual) TEC usually reject.
The out of time is the critical one.
If you phrase the way you have explained to us, chances are TEC will reject without council challenging.
Next stage after that is appealing to a District Judge, personal over £200, on paperword alone still over £100 and that probably will be lost money.

We cannot suggest lying but making the best of the explanation may be enough.
You must show that you had a robust redirection/collection system and that failed.
Moving in October, not collecting post until July will not satisfy a DJ.

Overall, I think you may need to suck this one up and pay the bailiffs. Sorry
Lawro
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 20 Jul 2016 - 11:02) *
It will do no harm to fill in the forms and cost nothing to send.
Once TEC get them, enforcement is on hold while council get chance to contest the Out of Time.
If they do (which is usual) TEC usually reject.
The out of time is the critical one.
If you phrase the way you have explained to us, chances are TEC will reject without council challenging.
Next stage after that is appealing to a District Judge, personal over £200, on paperword alone still over £100 and that probably will be lost money.

We cannot suggest lying but making the best of the explanation may be enough.
You must show that you had a robust redirection/collection system and that failed.
Moving in October, not collecting post until July will not satisfy a DJ.

Overall, I think you may need to suck this one up and pay the bailiffs. Sorry



Thank you for your reply and honesty.

I feared my complacency would cost me, but just not that much. From looking around the forums it's not the worst so time to pay up I guess.

Empathy is not, it seems, a prerequisite to work in a parking council office.

Hopefully with the great help on here, some justice will be served to this draconian system, set up to serve and protect the system and not the average motorist who already pays through the teeth just to drive on the decrepit roads.

Has anyone thought about starting petitions on websites such as Change.org. The councils have far too much power and with the introduction of the extra powers to bailiffs in 2011, it seems even more of a money machine than before. A good start may be the unfair posting laws which I've seen on here, where a council sending something 'first class' is deemed sent, although you and I would have to send it recorded I guess?
peterguk
QUOTE (Lawro @ Wed, 20 Jul 2016 - 11:41) *
A good start may be the unfair posting laws which I've seen on here, where a council sending something 'first class' is deemed sent, although you and I would have to send it recorded I guess?


The deeming provision is for any post sent 1st class, whether sent by you or a council. I rarely use Recorded Delivery, especially to large corporate bodies, since they often don't get signed for, even when delivered. 1st class with proof of posting is all that's required.

Whilst i sypathise with you to an extent, it was your legal obligation to update your V5, which you failed to do, you employed no mail redirection, and didn't pick up your mail for 8 months!
DancingDad
Send the forms anyway.
If nothing else it delays the inevitable for a couple of weeks.
And they may not challenge so you would get things reset.
May be a forlorn hope but...

Changes to Bailiffs laws actually improved matters.
Before they could charge what they wanted and had no set system to follow.
Posting, date of service. Works both ways.
Anyone who knows does not use recorded, that proves none delivery as easily as delivery. Many councils (and big firms) never sign for the things anyway.
Certificate of posting (free at post office) is the way to go to prove you sent something. They are then deemed to have received.
Lawro
QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 20 Jul 2016 - 12:21) *
QUOTE (Lawro @ Wed, 20 Jul 2016 - 11:41) *
A good start may be the unfair posting laws which I've seen on here, where a council sending something 'first class' is deemed sent, although you and I would have to send it recorded I guess?


The deeming provision is for any post sent 1st class, whether sent by you or a council. I rarely use Recorded Delivery, especially to large corporate bodies, since they often don't get signed for, even when delivered. 1st class with proof of posting is all that's required.

Whilst i sypathise with you to an extent, it was your legal obligation to update your V5, which you failed to do, you employed no mail redirection, and didn't pick up your mail for 8 months!



Yes, it is 'slightly' embarrassing, but with running my own business, trying to renovate my new place and with a new baby it all got a bit much unfortunately. In my defence, the new tenant was quite alright at first, I would visit every week or so up until Christmas and then my phone crapped out and I lost all contacts. My wife and I would knock around there at every possible opportunity but he was never in! He eventually text me in July. Still sounds pretty weak but anyway, better call the bailiff icon_hang.gif
DancingDad
QUOTE
I would visit every week or so

There ya go.
That is your mail redirection system.

I moved on ??? date but made arrangements for the new tenant to retain any post which I would collect on a weekly basis.
I did not receive any of the mandatory notices and the first I knew of this was when I was contacted by bailiffs.

Not the whole truth but not a lie.
Bailiff Advice
QUOTE (Lawro @ Tue, 19 Jul 2016 - 21:06) *
So, I moved house on 31/10/15 and with everything going on, managed to update most of my details but overlooked my V5 logbook.

In the meantime, I had notified the DVLA of my new address on the 12/03/16, eventually receiving the new log book on the 27/04/16.


I have only just seen this thread which is a shame as I would have advised you to stress on the witness statement/statutory declaration that you DID update your records with DVLA but that this was slightly late. You moved at the beginning of November and with the upheaval of moving etc (and Christmas), etc it was just 7 weeks later (on 12th March) that you dealt with updating your vehicle details.

I well remember an N244 (review) case about two years ago, where a District Judge overturned a previous rejection of the OOT on the basis that he considered that a delay of three months in updating DVLA records was perfectly acceptable.
Bailiff Advice
QUOTE (Lawro @ Tue, 19 Jul 2016 - 21:06) *
So, I moved house on 31/10/15 and with everything going on, managed to update most of my details but overlooked my V5 logbook.

In the meantime, I had notified the DVLA of my new address on the 12/03/16, eventually receiving the new log book on the 27/04/16.


I have only just seen this thread which is a shame as I would have advised you to stress on the witness statement/statutory declaration that you DID update your records with DVLA but that this was slightly late. You moved at the beginning of November and with the upheaval of moving etc (and Christmas), etc it was just 7 weeks later (on 12th March) that you dealt with updating your vehicle details.

I well remember an N244 (review) case about two years ago, where a District Judge overturned a previous rejection of the OOT on the basis that he considered that a delay of three months in updating DVLA records was perfectly acceptable.


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